Believe = Obey / Disobedience = Unbelief

Hebrews 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Many people still believe obedience to Jesus is legalism. They view the height of the Christian experience and fulfillment to be the Holy Spirit. What is a very subjective understanding, actually the Holy Spirit was given for a greater purpose:

Acts 5:32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

People that are spiritual gifts centered come one step short of understanding that, they think being pushed backwards to the floor is what it's about. Not even close. The example how Jesus denied himself again and again and pointed to the Father as his source is a good example that the narrow way of listening to what God says, and then do it, may seem like foolishness in comparison to the mainstream pentecostal or charismatic way of celebrating life in the spirit, but God for some reason works with/in obedient children.

Most people do not wish to give up their own way and obey God for anything. So they concentrate on other, seemingly "more spiritual" ways around that, ways that require less giving up of self and offer better experiences. Obedience is not included in that package because it looks pale in comparison, and is always misunderstood as trying to earn something, instead of what it really is, a love in action and true faith towards God.

Not only that, in Hebrews 5:9 he could have said Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that believe in him - what would be the same thing essentially, the difference is he wanted to show the relationship between 'believe' and 'obey' as to point to the true understanding of what faith is.

The difference of "a faith" to saving faith is obedience. That's too strong? Compare with Hebrews 5:9 and Acts 5:32

Someone pointed out the 'faith heroes' of Hebrews chapter 11 all did something because they believed. That way their faith is considered to be real. In contrast to the example for unbelief....those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience.

https://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/ggd/ggd_05

That's a must read, everytime you hear the word "legalist" or "judasizer" you have to read it again, hahaha, maybe it's them, maybe it's you that is outside of the faith, and spirit.

The seemingly paradox of grace, law and walking in the spirit is something we all have or had problems with, the continuation of the misunderstanding only becomes more visible when we talked about covenants. Andrew Murray in his book The Two Covenants understood something very important that there is no contradiction between God's Holy Spirit and God's law written on the heart, the contradiction only exists for the old heart, that still absolutely refuses to obey anyone, including God. The actual outcome of the Redeemer's work is God's Spirit and God's law inside the New Man, by His work and our cooperating by ways of repentance, obedience and true faith.

Dear a-servant,

I agree,..,..really,....Who wants to die ? To obey,is to die to our own WILL.
It is a CROSS / death ,..(pick up the cross and FOLLOW Me) ,...The cross was with Jesus ,...I know in all His ministry life,..He did only the Fathers will.
Also, with thoughts on Abraham,..' Believeing' ..He heard God speak to him,he believed / knew it was God,and as hard as the request was,..killing of his Only son,he was willing to die to self,and obey / believe God.

Now that is really Believeing,obeying, and Loveing God.

I just wanted you to know,how much your knowledge / revelations in the Scriptures do bless.

God bless,
elizabeth

Dear Elizabeth,

yes we are truly Abraham's seed in the faith, which is Christ. I just saw you mentioned similar things in " The Kingdom of God/heaven: 'the Habitation of God'. Most people always go over the difficult parts in the scriptures, but you don't:

Quote: "And have you noticed, ...Does't it say,that there will be some in the Kingdom,that will be thrown out of the Kingdom,....( do they start out obeying,..and then...?, refuse to be washed in the Water by the Word? )"

That is a good question, and I was/am looking at this over the years from different angles. Lately I have come to the insight that if the narrow way is really so narrow and few that find it (Matt7:14) then it must be hidden in plain sight. So that children, the pure at heart and the meek still can find it. But the 'wise' according to the flesh separate themselves and become/remain goats. In contrast to sheep that believe/obey and follow.

To believe/obey is a meekness test in a way for the kingdom of God, no rebel will choose that way, they want to have it their way. Let's think about it for a moment what the problem with rebels is, if you would be the 'CEO' of the universe and you are looking for faithful servants to hire for 'contracting positions' or other important tasks like "ruling of nations" - would you hire any rebels? They would just split after a while and would want their own section in the universe to be worhipped themselves. It's just what power and the vanity of pride does. And God does not want to hire people, he wants a family, so his criteria of choosing is of even higher standard.

However a stone-hearted rebel might still be religious, and also believe that hell is real, and therefore tries to avoid to be thrown in there. That's where the great delusion of the "easier way" tries to deceive us, some never really believed/obeyed the promise of the gospel, Jesus says "he never knew them" in Matthew 7:23.

The only reason we know he never knew them is their iniquity or lawlessness at the very end, the time of reckoning. They've been busy for the Lord but never been converted themselves. How is that even possible? They missed the narrow way, their form of belief was on mental agreement basis to facts only, but they didn't respond to it by faith and repentance. That's a 'tuff cookie' to read in David Servants explanation in the link in first post:

"Hopefully, this list of scriptural proofs is enough to convince anyone that a relationship with God begins with repentance. There is no forgiveness of sins without it. If you did not repent when you first “accepted Jesus,” performing “deeds appropriate to repentance,” you were not saved. If you have not repented since then, you are still not saved."

In that case there is also no sanctification, they remain lawless, or in their sin, what doesn't exlude the possibility to be real busy doing great things and dabbling in a supernatural spirit. But is it the spirit of truth? Is it That Holy Spirit that makes us holy? It's a demand of the Lord to test the spirits:

Isaiah 8:19  And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

2 John 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So how do we know if we know anything? Since it's also possible just to think to know something? 1 Cor 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Romans 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

What does 'from faith to faith' mean? It means our faith is growing form 'babe size' to maturity IF we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Even if 'all truth' is there potentially for us to grasp from the beginning of the new life, few are able to trust God with all of their heart. Mentally maybe, but not practically.

Is God testing our faith at times? It does look that way to me, when circumstances of life bring obstacles that cannot be overcome by human wisdom or power. And God steps in and solves the case in a very unusal way we might not thought of possible at all.

If you're not been faithful to "step 1" of the faith learning process, will you ever be confronted with "step 2" where only an answered prayer can solve your problem?

1 John 3:22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

According to John there is a connection he wants us to realize: "Because". We do get prayers answered because we have been faithful already not sending his first words to the theology mindset and dismiss them, but to believe and obey them like a child would. The difference here is following Jesus initially like a child that has no politics or theologies at all hoping that He will make the inward changes necessary by his work in us. We cannot sanctify ourselves by learning about schools of sanctification methods or revivals, we have to let Him do it in us, our part is to believe the promises and obey His guidance.

"Obey" is a word that hints at the fact that we are not created robots, we are always faced with decisions and choices. Some people think the Holy Spirit in us would make these decisions for us. So we just sit there and get driven. That is false theology, promoted by faulty translations, based on the use of the words "slave" to sin, and "slave" to righteousness. Only the unconverted are slaves to sin, not believers.

Will Kinney has got it right: "It is a false doctrine to say we are slaves of Christ, and it is a false doctrine to say we are slaves to sin.

1. Sinners are servants of sins. Servants serve a master. They earn wages. The wages of sin is death.

2. Christians are servants of Christ. Christians face choices. Many times we are instructed to yield, to obey, to serve and to submit. This is not slavery language, but servant language. As sons of God we must never give up serving God. We are always commanded to serve, to do so willingly. A slave has no will."

I love the title of this thread. Believing DOES equal obeying. We have made believing such a wishy-washy word. If we believe the words of Jesus, however, it is so clear that without obeying we have not truly believed (see ex. John 15).

a-servant: I just wanted to clarify something that you stated.

quote: "It is a false doctrine to say we are slaves of Christ, and it is a false doctrine to say we are slaves to sin."

While it is true that Christ called us his friends, the apostles (including Paul, Peter, and James the Lord's brother) called themselves slaves of Christ. While this is usually translated servant or bondservant, in Greek it means slave. They were voluntary slaves, but slaves nonetheless. In Gal 1:10, Paul explicitly states that he is a slave of Christ (again usually translated servant or bondservant).

I don't know why we are so afraid of being slaves of Christ. What less can we be? He has given everything for us, even left his divinity and glory in heaven to walk with us roaches, as one of us roaches, to suffer and die for us roaches, and we find it too much to say that we are slaves?

I am not speaking personally to you, a-servant, it is just that I see so many around me trying to justify themselves so that they have to give up as little as possible of themselves, their lusts, their desires, and still claim to be following Christ.

Hi romanchog, here is the simple answer to the question. 1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

The only way you can love is by free will.

the words themselves have their own context already and tell us that "slave" is the wrong choice to pick from the greek, which gives both options, because a slave is not free to choose anything. A son is, a servant is, yet he still has a master. A son without a master is his own god by the way.

What is wrong with "being slaves of Christ"? The only christ that wants slaves is the antichrist, because he will force his will on all humanity. All false gods want to subvert and control our will, our agreement is not wanted. The characteristic of an unclean spirit is 'oppression' and finally 'possession' of his victim. There is no freedom.

Jesus Christ in contrast: 2 Corinthians 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

He will not force his will to overthrow our will, He is gentle, we either agree with him, or we don't, obey or not, yet nothing was ever compulsory:

Joshua 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

God doesn't look for slaves, he wouldn't be happy one bit, it would be the same as having created robots. What kind of love is there to be expected coming from robots?

Quote: """God doesn't look for slaves, he wouldn't be happy one bit, it would be the same as having created robots. What kind of love is there to be expected coming from robots? """

The kind of love the Potter knows the clay will bring forth, the kind of love the pot was intended for when He created it. The robot has been made free and is now a new creature, a being, that which has never been before, A son by the Son, who is now a new creature in Christ. Now I am learning to Love Him as He first loved me and gave Himself for me.

I am either a slave robot to satan or a New creation in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

My context was 'control' or "he forced me to love him" which does not exist except in the concept of a passive submission to a spirit of control.

It's that concept of a controlling spirit that is foreign to Paul when he writes:

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

yield to, and obey, both needs our participation, not the absence of it, what makes this idea of being "controlled by the Holy Spirit" such a strange idea and invites spirits that knock us out unconscious. The reason to test the spirits in scripture, what is not done by the church, and not even understood how to do it. But back to the wilfully 'obey' part what gives Paul teachings more context:

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Past tense, done deal, now we can do what is right. Before we had no choice, now we have.

Hebrews 10:14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Same here, past tense, done deal, now we only need faith to fully realize it.

Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive orgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The faith of Jesus and in Jesus is the basis for everything on our part, where we connect to His finished work on the cross, our part of the covenant is expressed by our obedience as a result of that faith.

Hebrews 2:11  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Matthew 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Ecclesiastes 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

John 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Philip,

It is along the lines of a bond-slave in the OT. Do you know the concept?

a-servant:

Thanks for the post. It has given me something to think on from time to time over the past week.

There are several aspects of our lives that we can see as barometers if you will of what is really going on in our hearts. Obedience is one of those aspects of our lives that reveals what is truly going on in our heart.

I recall a time when God dealt with me about giving our family car away. At the time we had two children at home and my only other vehicle was a small pickup that could not hold all of us at once. My wife and I both worked and the boys had to be taken to school. So, because my faith was weak, I disobeyed and did not give the van away. I cheated the person to whom I was supposed to give the van out of a blessing, and I cheated myself out of a great blessing as well. I knew intellectually that God would provide my needs, but I did not believe it in my heart. Of course God forgave me, but I have looked back on that incident and wondered what might have happened had I been obedient.

Several years passed and I obeyed the Lord concerning how He wanted me to order some of my personal finances. I had used credit cards for "emergencies" up to that time and it had created a certain amount of debt. God said for me to get rid of the debt, so I decided to stop that practice. A month later our transmission went out. Again, we had the small pickup, two jobs, boys to take to school, and no money to fix the transmission. Instead of disobeying, I believed God. We struggled for almost a month while we prayed and believed God, but by the end of the month we had the cash money to fix the car and were praising God for His faithfulness.

When I am not sure if God will come through, I am not likely to do what He says. I will instead rely upon my own means. If I have faith and confidence in Him, I will do what He says. My lack of faith may be a result of how I allocate my time and what I allow to feed my heart and mind. The things of the world will combat faith and bring unbelief. My lack of faith may be a result of my relationship with God not being very strong. I may not be assured of His love and absolute commitment to my good. It may come because I have the wrong view of God. But ultimately, my lack of faith will be evidenced by my lack of obedience.

Thanks for the post.
God bless you.

Quote "When I am not sure if God will come through, I am not likely to do what He says. I will instead rely upon my own means."

Yes, I know whay you mean. The problem of my life. Usually I can figure out how to solve any basic problem, that's why I get 'personalized' problems from time to time that are totally outside of my scope.

It's about surrender of heart territory and giving up double mindedness like in James 4:8. The greatest 'faith builders' come from the singleness of heart to trust him, when no human solution is possible. Where I had to give up the whole idea of fixing things and let Jesus know that he is the only one that can help me now. Total reliance, it's something he is teaching me in questions of health, finances, marriage and going to and living in foreign countries. Personal health was actually the easiest of all, since it's a simple idea to understand that the creator always takes better care (if asked) than people and their manmade medicines, in comparison to for example governments that want rare personal documents that don't exist is one the most difficult things to handle. Like a wall of granite. You just give up. When God opens a door that was shut and locked, it is a miracle, especially when he let you read a relating psalm that speaks directly about the situation where he says what He will do. And he gives faith to believe it and you can say amen to that. And then it really happens. That melts my heart.

Quote: """Philip,

It is along the lines of a bond-slave in the OT. Do you know the concept?"""

Yes I understand the concept, But;

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

"servants" Strong's Greek Dictionary
1401. doulos
Search for G1401 in KJVSL
douloV doulos doo'-los
from 1210; a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):--bond(-man), servant.

A servant knoweth not.

"friends" Strong's Greek Dictionary
5384. philos
Search for G5384 in KJVSL
jiloV philos fee'-los
properly, dear, i.e. a friend; actively, fond, i.e. friendly (still as a noun, an associate, neighbor, etc.):--friend.

Even beyond "friend", It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is our perfection; Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Beyond even this; 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

"Charity" Strong's Greek Dictionary
26. agape
Search for G26 in KJVSL
agaph agape ag-ah'-pay
from 25; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast:--(feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love.

The Love of Christ in us being our Love-feast in Him and with each other.

I love Him because He first loved me, I see Christ in you because I see Christ in me and I love you because of His Love in me.

In Christ: Phillip