romanchog
May 8, 2013
Wonderful exposition on Holiness.
Its false teaching and nothing more than legalism and will never lead to true revival.
She even quotes from that great opposer to the holiness movement and who wrote a book opposing it called inappropriately Holiness - J C Ryle and other Calvinists but then strangely quotes Andrew Murray a holiness preacher who opposed `gradual sanctification`. It takes a spiritually enlightened person to know this important distinction.
"Try harder! Try Harder!" is the message. But you cannot improve the flesh. If one still sins then the old man has not been crucified or rather, one has not seen what Christ did on the cross for us. One has not understood that the problem of sin was dealt the death blow and all it takes is faith that Christ delivers us from ALL unrighteouness, which makes a gradual sanctification a denial of the power of God.
The preacher is saying instead that holiness is in the intention but will not be realised completely until death which is nowhere in the Bible. Please tell me where it says that a Christian cannot stop sinning in this life, without misquoting Roamns 7 that is.
What a tragedy that she is speaking at a Campus Crusade of Christ meeting, and misleading young folk into legalism.
Don`t you realise that something has to change. Many are preaching this message including a brother on this site, and nothing changes. People know that they should be walking closer to Christ but the message they are getting does not interpret into their lives. Their struggle with sin continues.
It is a know fact of life that if something is not working then you need to change tactics. This time it is doctrine.
What I am saying is not just me - it was the teaching of the holiness movement that has all but disappeared, and this new or rather old, method is popular but things just continue in the church with its lack of love and power.
A voice crying out in the wilderness is the way forward. There are a few voices but no-one listens.
During the sermonindex conference in Scotland a few years back there was a question and answer session with a panel of people answering questions.
I asked the question do we expect a revival without being entirely sanctified.
One on the panel a Irish man answered with a puzzled look on his face we have to die before that happens.
The message has been forgotten, you can be sanctified entirely on earth, you can be Holy during this life, but it does come through effort...
Sanctification is by faith......
Saints how on earth do you get legalism out of this message? I have listened to it and the sister is right on. She presents a Biblical teaching on the need to be holy. So I ask again where is legalism?
If anything, Nancy Leigh De Moss is preaching a message that clearly needs to be preached from the pulpit. And that is the need for the believing church to be holy.
I have found when those few believers cry out for holiness the cry from the majority is legalism. This is why the hyper grace and sinless perfection doctrines are so poular. And herectical. They absolve one of personal responsibility. The responsibility of maintaining a pure walk before God.
Again I ask where is legalism here? What I see is a sister calling us to be holy before a holy God. Unless I misread my Bible, even in the New Testament, our calling is to be holy. So I ask again where us the legalism here?
I feel tbis message is more right on then what one is going to get out of Joseph Prince or Joel Olstein. Personally I think every member of the forum should listen to this. But then maybe I am legalistic.
Bearmaster
Not only is this an awesome message on God's holiness, but this dear sister could teach our modern day pastors a few things about preaching.
She obviously is not preaching herself, or stories or even her own agenda. She is speaking in weakness and trembling and also in the demonstration of the spirit and of power.
She is not trying to tell the Church that if they live a holy life that they will be in right standing before God, but is rather exhorting an ALREADY RECONCILED bride of Christ to WALK in the holiness that they have already been made partakers of. That is the whole definition of exhortation--to call us to walk in what we already are. It's the whole concept of the indicative teachings in scripture versus the imperatives. The indicatives teach us that we are already holy in Christ because of His working, but the imperatives teach us to now walk in holiness BECAUSE we are holy in Him.
I wish that I was a part of a church that had this kind of preaching.
Lord forgive us for sitting in the seat of the scornful.
TKC amen. I was moved and convicted by this sisters message. I do agree. She indeed was speaking from a heart of trembling moved in awe by a holy God. Also her heart broke in praise of the thrice holy God by singing that great hym Holy Holy Holy. Followed by the worship song I Stand in Awe of You. I found mysekf going to my knees worshipping the thrice Holy God.
In Revelation the angels cry Holy Holy Holy. Holiness is the one attribute of God articulated three times. Holiness is the one attribute that is foundational to all his other attributes.
I exhort all to listen to this sister's message. There us no condemnation. But for sure there will be a conviction of the Spirit for the lack if holiness in our own lives. I was so moved to conviction of sin in ny own life.
If anyone does listen to this message explain where the legalism is? You will not find it.
Bearmaster
There is no legalism here, unless one calls following Biblical mandates legalism.
"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy." I Pet 1:13-16.
The word "be" is an action word-- we have to DO something. We are not "automatically" holy when we are saved, or else there would not be statements like the above in scripture. In a sense we are holy if we are saved; i.e. we have the HS, etc but the Bible teaches that we must live out this holiness so that we actually look holy. How? By dying, so that it is no longer we who live but Christ living in us.
Natalie,
What a most precious and most needful message.what else is there ?
It is Truth....the Lord has called us to this.
* For as many,as are led by the Spirit of God,THEY ARE the son's / children of God,....but is is a death.
God does not want nor will He lead us into sin.and if we do not allow His Words,that He draws (His Grace),us with to fall to the ground, we can be Holy.
And too,* Blessed is the pure in heart,for they shall SEE God....
To SEE God ?....But He is envisable,...He is the Spirit. / Word,..the Holy One,..He who speaketh,..the Voice
So if we have a pure heart,we can SEE God,..then He gives us an understanding of His Word,..through His Spirit,(manifest,reveal,what He is truly saying.
Please bless us all with a pure heart,O'Lord,that we may SEE you as you
Really are and as a reflection as to how we are to be,....that is Truly/ Truth,..HOLY !...
.Take up the Cross / death,and follow me....a follower of Jesus Chirst.
Jesus did not just die when they hung Him on the cross,..but He lived a
whole life of death to self,and Life to God,His Father.
Natalie,this Lady gave so many good scripture,...
Thank you for sharing with us,with this encouragement.
elizabeth
Elizabeth:
I listened to this message twice already. Oh the importance of holiness! If we could only understand that without holiness we will not see God, then we would truly labor to cleanse ourselves of the filth of this world. The world is so much in us that we do not even realize that what we have in us is indeed the world.
I was chided by some (very few) for questioning whether board games are worldly, by which I meant to say, are board games of the world and therefore am I defiling myself and allowing myself to be defiled for participating in them? It may seem silly to some, but is this not the type of self-examination that we are supposed to be daily doing in our lives?
Many years ago, when I was clueless about holiness I was reading the sermon on the mount and when I read that the pure in heart shall see God, I got so excited. I just wanted to know how I could get a pure heart! I wanted to see God. I did a word search on the word pure in the Bible (very academic) and could not find anything that would give me the answer. The answer was right in front of my nose but I could not see it. Holiness! Those who are pure in heart are HOLY. They will see God. How I yearn for this holiness, and how far from it am I!
This holiness should extend to the smallest areas of our lives. We should look very deep at every thing we do, even the smallest things. We are told by the apostle Paul that in ALL things, whether we eat or drink, we should give glory to God. If we are supposed to glorify God in such (apparently) mundane things, should we look to all the other mundane things as well and make sure that we are not allowing the world to enter into us through them?
This may sound like legalism to some, but Paul calls us to examine ourselves lest we be found disqualified. I would rather exaggerate here on the side of holiness than end up at the end of my life disqualified!
I am speaking for myself. I do not wish anyone to think that I am condemning anybody.
In Christ,
Natalie
judge not lest you be judged...
Is there any professing Christian willing to receive only one lash of a whip for every sin committed since becoming a Christian? (think about it before you answer) if the answer is no then read on...
Is everyone professing holiness have already attained to perfect holiness?
If not, be careful how you judge another, remember Gal 6:1 and NEVER wish some ones sins upon them because they have struggles in life. Remember that it is written to bear one another's burdens and to pray for each other.
Some people just don't get it that only God the Father is good, and that unless God enables a person (God inside) to be be holy, it is impossible to be so.
(so how do we get God inside?)
You cannot strive in the flesh to be holy...you can wish for it, acknowledge it, and profess it all you want to dear Christian, but that is only window dressing to real holiness. It is the grace and mercy of God alone that enables us to live our lives for Him (and this does not come from ourselves)...in love from Him and for Him...and because of this love comes submission.
Brethren
There is so much fuzzy thinking about this issue.
I am not saying that the call to holiness is wrong. There are many in the church who are content with their lukewarm state and sins, while claiming that the blood of Christ covers them, like a fall of snow over a compost heap. They truly need to hear that Christ calls us to lead holy lives.
There are also many in the church who look around them and see the failings of others and desire that someone would speak out and bring these black sheep to order, bringing shame as they are to the church. These ones are the self righteous who do not see their own sins and who are high and mighty in their own minds. Thank God they say that I am not like other men.
However, there are also many in the church who desire to be pleasing to their Lord and Master, who strive and strive but yet fail to find any peace. They hear this message, and it adds another burden onto their backs. They need to hear that Christ has done it all.
The message is flawed because it leads us to believe that one can be more pleasing to God by ones efforts. That, if one desires to be holy, but fails often, then God is satisfied with that, that it is enough. Adding emotion into it does not make it valid.
The speaker does not show us how to be holy.
Holiness does not come through beating the flesh. It does not come through weeping and guilt (though there must be conviction). It comes by understanding amazing grace.
It is through amazing grace that the wretch is saved. That is, the believer who has already come to Christ and who is already trying to live a holy life but is failing and struggling. They have not yet been saved from the presence of sin which is the purpose of the crucifixion. And all it takes is faith that Christ will keep us from all sin.
This is the message that is good news as it relieves them of their desperation. However, you get speakers like the one in the OP who claim that a man should feel content with status quo so long as he desires to get there but thinks that it wont happen in this life, which is the death knell to real holiness.
Brethren, the desire to be holy has been put there by God because He enables us to be so, otherwise we would be chasing something that is unobtainable in this life. A cruel joke if it were not possible. A man must be motivated by something that is possible for him to obtain otherwise he will become disenchanted.
The OP message seems to be right but there is a subtle message inside of it that is very wrong.
I must say that I percieve so much of Jesus in our Sister Nancy, resulting in what is so rare these days - the inner beauty of a gentle & quiet spirit.
Dear Krautfrau, what do you think of the following?:
The Holiness Movement was in many ways a reaction to the dead orthodoxy and lifeless spirituality that infiltrated so much of Christianity during the nineteenth-century. However, its remedy, a second blessing resulting in the eradication of sinful tendencies and a higher life not available to the unbaptized, went beyond the teaching of Scripture. As is often the case in reactionary movements, the cure may be as bad as the disease.
&:
All of these 20th century movements can trace their ancestors to the Holiness Movement of the 1800s and to John Wesley before that. They all have in common the desire for some form of instantaneous perfection, or power, that comes through a subsequent work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Each movement also has in common a faulty view of sanctification—that personal holiness, maturity and power is the result of a momentary experience rather than a lifetime process.
Joch
Dear Brother Joch
We must beware of being deceived by the appearance of the messenger. Only the truth counts. Many people are taken in by a charming seemingly humble pastor but later find that they suffer very much by being in his church. Some are badly damaged. Even Satan appears as an angel of light. No, we must seek the truth and know that plenty of lovely gentle souls are decieved.
The Holiness Movement traced back to Wesley, may have indeed been a reaction to dead orthodoxy but the doctrine did not start there.
George Fox and the early Quakers were teaching and living this message in the 1600`s (read the Journal for a report of Fox`s experience of entire sanctification when he `came up through the flaming sword`) and many others before Wesley taught it from the begining of the NT church. We have the Lindisfarne Gospels from the 8th century
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/lindisfarne.html
This book records the lives of those who were pronounced saints due to their holy lives in northern England.
There is indeed a process involved in sanctification but there must come a point where the flesh has been put to death. The Bible nowhere says that one is sanctified after death.
Those who deny this doctrine do so because it has not happened to them. They cannot imagine being without their sins. Scripture says that he who sins is of the devil.
krautfrau wrote:
"Those who deny this doctrine do so because it has not happened to them. They cannot imagine being without their sins."
That statement depends a lot on what the definition of "sin" is.
Scripture may say that he who sins is of the devil, but it also says that whoever says he is without sin is deceiving himself.
The Holiness movement didn't start in the 1800s, the Holiness movement was born on Pentecost 2000 years ago.
Acts 15:9 you can read there about the instananous cleansing of the heart by faith.
A reading of the New Testament does not teach an intant second blessing where one is infused with holiness and they are suddenly walking on water. What the New Testament does teach is that one has to be continually on an ongoing basis filled with Holy Spirit. And then by the power of the Spirit put to death the misdeeeds of the body.
Paul's letters exhort Spirit filled believers to live out a godly life that is expressed in following directives he lays out. This is what Nancy Leigh DeMise is exhorting the church to do. The bride of Christ is called to be holy. She is only doing what Paul would have us do. Live godly in Christ Jesus.
Yet when the exhortation to practical holiness goes out. The cry is legalism and law and we are under grace. Then what does Titus 2:11-14 tells us. It is grace that teaches us to say "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passion and to live self controlled and godly lives in this present generation.
I suggest we put Wesley and Fox aside and look to the New Testament alone for teeachibg on practical holiness. I see no teaching there on the second blessing or an infusion of holiness that makes one instant like Christ. What I do see is a gradual transforming of the Holy Spirit that is working us and we are working out to be more like Christ. And tes. We will not be completely sanctified until death.
This is what our sister is exhorting us to do. This is what the New Testament writers are exhorting us to do. To walk in a prractical holiness by the power of the Spirit as unto Christ.
Bearmaster.
Brother Bearmaster
Its also known as the baptism of the Spirit and I see a lot about it right through the Bible. It is the point at which we become like Christ and walk as He walked. Many think they have been baptised at the point they came to Christ but that is false as can be seen by their walk - not being Christlike.
Agreed Brother Colin but it was only known as the `Holiness Movement` at the date we are discussing.
Brother TMK
So which one is being misinterpreted? Which one encourages holiness?
Sister even those baptized in the Holy Spirit lack a holy walk or have issues with sin. Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit. But Paul had to rebuke him for his hypocrissy as seen in Gal.2.
Being baptized in the Holy Spirit does not mean one will obey Christ perfectly as Jesus obeyed his Father. Only one has been without sin while walking on this earth. That person was Jesus. I doubt any person, including myself, can say we have obeyed Christ perfectly. If soeone has such a testimony then they are in deception.
For sure the Spirit does help us live a holy life. But it is a given we will fall into sin. This is why God has given us the promises in 1 John 1:7-10 of forgiveness and cleansing.
The walk of faith on a daily basis is a dying to self and continual filling by the Spirit. Or a daily putting off if the old nature and putting on the new nature of Christ. There is also an exhortation to practical holiness.
I am sure that Nancy DeNies would agree that one's practical walk of holiness must be done in the power of the Spirit. But our obedience to Christ will never be perfect this side of glory. It is only when we get to heaven and see him will we be completely perfect in Jesus.
Bearmaster
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