A discussion on can a believer live without sin

Since the Nancy DeMoss thread should be more focussed on that message I wanted to open up another thread on the discussion of sinless perfection. It seems some in this forum believe one can be without sin. It seems they believe they can have a Christian walk without thinking a sinful thought or engaging in a sinful act.

I personally do not believe in sinless perfection. I do not believe the scriptures support the doctrine of sinless perfection. The Bible tells us only one has ever been without sin. That person is Jesus Christ. The scriptures tells us that God made him who knew no sin to be sin in our place. So that we might become the righteousness of God.

Those who hold to sinless perfection are you so audacious to say you have such a testimony. That right now you are as pure as Jesus himself that you can hang on a cross for sinners.

Those who hold to sinless perfection. Are you so audacious to say that you are not impacted by the sin of this world? That you have never had a sinful thought. Are you so audacious to tell us that you do not need to repent of any sin during the course of your daily walk with Christ?

If any have such a testimony then let us hear it. For surely your experience goes against the norm of many Christ centered people who struggle with sin on a daily basis. I imagine that includes Nancy DeMoss and Paul Washer. I have never heard in their messages they were free from all sin. Even Nancy DeMoss shared a moment of weakness in her message. .

But for those who walk 24/7 free from sin and need not repent. Please tell us how. I will listen to you. But I will challenge you from the scriptures.

Bearmaster.

Dear Bearmaster:

I know there are plenty of prior forum discussions on the doctrine, so I will not add to what has already been said other then trying to clear up whether you meant to say "Christian Perfection" and not "sinless perfection"? John Wesley is the most known for using the term Christian Perfection and he wrote to a sister who inquired about the meaning of the term below:

To Mrs. Maitland: — “As to the word perfection, it is Scriptural; therefore, neither you nor I can in conscience object to it, unless we would send the Holy Ghost to school, and teach Him to speak who made the tongue.

“By Christian perfection, I mean (as I have said again and again) the so loving God and our neighbor as to 'rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, and in everything give thanks. 'He that experiences this is Scripturally perfect. And if you do not, yet you may experience it; you surely will, if you follow hard after it, for the Scripture cannot be broken.

“What then does their arguing reprove, who object against Christian perfection? Absolute or infallible perfection I never contended for. Sinless perfection I do not contend for, seeing it is not Scriptural. A perfection, such as enables a person to fulfill the whole law, and so needs not the merits of Christ, —I acknowledge no such perfection; I do, now, and always did, protest against it.

“'But is there no sin in those who are perfect in love?' I believe not; but be that as it may,they feel none, —no temper contrary to pure love, —while they rejoice, pray, and give thanks continually. And whether sin is suspended, or extinguished, I will not dispute; it is enough that they feel nothing but love. This, you allow, we should daily press after. And this is all I contend for.”— Works, vol. vi. p. 752.

BTW, the following website is a great resource on the doctrine of Christian Perfection: http://www.enterhisrest.org/

Hi MrBillPro

At that time, there well may have not been a man walking on the earth that did not sin. There have been other times I am sure. Narrow is the path.

Thankyou for starting this thread Bear.

There is no man at any time who has never sinned. But there have been plenty who later came to be delivered from it and testified tio it and more than that, others who knew them testified to it which removed possibility of self deception. It has been recorded of certain men that they were indeed holy.

I could not see it in scripture at one time. But now I see it throughout the whole of the scriptures, it is the subject of the whole of the books. God wants to restore man to what he should have been. Those who are hard of heart will not see it though. I am not judging you - I don`t know you -I am merely stating a fact.

I agree Paul West. Amen and Amen! I need this discussion for the purpose of edification and to know Jesus and the Father more.

I thought of the following verses concerning perfection or Christian Perfection:

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;"

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."

"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

"and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

"the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ."

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Brother PaulWest is right, it is a very important subject and one we must not get wrong. As this is the most important issue for us, it is no surprise that there is confusion over meanings as our enemy surely wants there to be such confusion.

soldout2him

It is my understanding that Wesley did not wish to contend over the term sinless perfection because there is so much misunderstanding about it, not that it is not scriptural. That statement is not in his sermon Christian Perfection and I wonder if you can give me a link to read Works vol.6.

He did teach that man can be without sin.

To make it clear - I do not believe that it is possible for a man to never have sinned in his whole life. I do not believe that once a man is entirely sanctified that he cannot sin again - he certainly can fall.

I believe that a man can have a pure heart and as sin comes out of the heart, and this is where I disagree with Paul West, not the other way around from head to heart, if the heart is pure there cannot be an evil thought coming into the head.

I do not believe that a man can be like God in that he never makes a mistake but a mistake is not a sin. It is an error of judgment and not a moral issue. Wesley says it as thinking more of a man than should be thought. Misjudging intention is a common mistake.

I agree with Wesley that a man can never not need the blood of Christ moment by moment to keep us from sin as it is not within our power.

I am not aware of any sin at this moment of time and I have walked with absolute assurance but this is not about me. It is about whether the doctrine is true or not. I don`t want the attention to be on me but I am willing to answer questions so long as they are respectful.

I believe that Colin differs from me in that he thinks that entire sanctification means that there is no conscious sin. Maybe if he is still here he can confirm this to avoid confusion.

I don`t go along with this and think that this doctrine brings discredit because the claimant is displaying sins that others can see yet say that one must walk without sin.

To me, it is a contradiction of terms. Entire sanctification means to me simply that - no sin.

I wonder whether sinless perfection was understood in Wesley`s time as it is sometimes understood today to mean a person who has never sinned in their lives or never sinned as a believer. Is my understanding of the doctrine the same as others here regardless of whether we agree or not? I think that would be useful to know.

QUOTE A
perfection, such as enables a person to fulfil the whole law, and so
needs not the merits of Christ,-^-I acknowledge no such perfection; I
do now, and always did, protest against it. END OF QUOTE

OK I have found it. Wesley is saying that sinless perfection, meaning that one must not make a mistake and therefore not need the merit of Christ, is not scriptural. Agreed, we will never reach a point of not making a mistake which Wesley says needs the blood too even though it is not sin. I believe that we need the blood in order to stay perfect.

It is clear that Wesley still maintains sinlessness

QUOTE But is there no sin in those who are perfect in love V I believe not;
but be that as it may, they feel none END QUOTE

Dear krautfrau:

If you are really interested in finding the exact quote from Mr. Wesley to Mrs. Maitland then you could easily find it on any of the websites that publish his works. Dear bother, I did the research for you and the link is provided below:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1763/

If you have read through Wesley's works, journals, etc., then you know it is very common to find a letter of this type, hence the reasoning for quoting from him concerning the misunderstandings, misrepresentations and fallacies concerning the biblical understanding of the doctrine of Christian Perfection. Best to know what a man believes by reading his own words or hearing him directly give account of the faith within him then to receive it second hand from another source.

Again, I will post the link of a site which covers the doctrine of Christian perfection very thoroughly: http://www.enterhisrest.org/

I also believe that when one tries to defend any doctrine then it must agree with the Holy Scriptures. As "all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16)" I do hope that this discussion will rely heavily on the quoting of scriptures as they are the most efficient means to spiritually edify the Body and not tear her down.

May the Holy Spirit be our teacher and guide during this post, as He alone is the one who is able to shed the love of God abroad in our hearts. May we consider others more important and better than ourselves, while looking unto ourselves lest we also fall. With meekness, gentleness, and long suffering let us restore one another to an abiding relationship with the Lord Jesus and the Father. Concerning the Holy Spirit the Lord has spoken: "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you." Amen.

Brother krautfrau, delay my last as it appears you did your due diligence and found the quote yourself. Great job! :)

I am going to meet with my wife for lunch, but I am going to be praying on this subject while eagerly anticipating the opportunity to join again soon, Lord willing. I know this doctrine is very dear to the Lord's heart and He desires that His people experience salvation to the uttermost. KM

I have retitled the thread to a discussion of the doctrine of sinless perfection. It seems this is a topic that should prayerfully engender some Spirit ked discussion.

May God be pleased to give us some revelation and practical application in our walk with Christ.

Bearmaster

Brother Bill's signature line seems to speak right to the heart of this issue.

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. Ecc. 7:10.

Whether one calls it sinless perfection, Christian perfection, entire sanctification, etc. Guess what. One is still going to sin.

Bearmaster.

It appears most of the brethren on this post have already exhausted this topic on other threads like the below link, e.g., "Go and sin no more"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30222&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=0

I have been reading through it and I will quote from the end of one of krautfrau's posts:

"Most do not enter this rest and even less these dark days. Sinless Perfection is a dirty word due to misrepresentation. Man can fall from the rest, but when he is in it he is no longer the child of the devil and under the bondage of `unconscious sin`. Even the `unsaved` can stop his conscious sins as reformed alcoholics prove. It takes the power of God to free us from unconscious sins and hidden attitudes and this is done with the provision of the pure heart which enables Christ to manifest His life and live it through us.

Oh that examples of this life could be seen today. I know it exists because I have lived it but sadly I have found it impossible to remain in it and dont have the assurance of it at present. Please pray for me." END QUOTE

I agree wholeheartedly with you my dear brother in that there are few who seem to think that this type of heart purification is possible this side of heaven. Yet, how do we measure our Christian experience? Do we measure it by the Word of God or by our short comings?

We know that Christ walked blamelessly before the Father all of the days of His earthly journey, as the scriptures testifies of Him: "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Peter 2: 22-24).

Yet, dear saints what does the verse before this testimony declare? "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" And yes even John declares: "whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." Further, Peter also declared to the saints: "Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

So dear saints, I too am struggling in this area of Christian Perfection. I have not attained it, but it is not because the doctrine is false, or because God's lack to give me a pure heart, or because of the devil or anyone else. No, No, No! God forbid that I would blame my sin on anyone else, but my own selfish endeavors. I have sinned against God and God alone have I done evil in His sight. Yet there is the repentance of the believers that Peter writes about as follows: "the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

I also would love to have others to encourage me as they did during the Holiness Movement and the birth of the first church. Read the detailed accounts of Rees Howells and how the saints urged him to go ALL the way with God along with the intimate promptings of the Holy Spirit.

One of the reasons I joined the Sermonindex forum is because of the doctrine of Christian perfection. Also, I saw an honest desire in the discussions of many of the threads to see the Lord have His way in everything we do, say or think. For the Lord to fill the house (i.e., His temple, the Body of Christ) and for the gates of hell to not prevail against her. To indeed be apart of the spotless, blameless and glorious bride. To be the Christ on the earth and in the local community, to love one another, to lay down our lives for one another and to NOT be popular among men, but that the demons would know us by name because we are walking according to the following High Priestly prayer:

13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19“For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

"22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them”" (John 17). Amen, KM