For those seeking entire sanctification.

sermonindex May 12, 2013

I have started this thread so that we have a place to concentrate on discussing seeking and not debating whether the second blessing is true or not.

I do agree with Wesley and others including Keswick teaching about this stage. It is when we are delivered from the power of sin and are free to walk without conscious sin.

It happens in an instant when Christ has been revealed to us as Sanctifier and we have consented to having our old man crucified. Well he was crucified with Christ on the cross but we find as our spiritual walk goes on that it is not actually working in us and no will power seems to help.

We can be filled with good intention after a conference or after a good sermon, but come Monday we are back to the grind and the frustration of not being able to `hold` the highs of the weekend.

When we are in His Rest this does not happen - we do hold onto it simply because it is our nature to be so once we have been freed from the chains of the flesh. We can be as busy as anything yet inside we can pray without ceasing and hear Him speak to us no matter what we are doing. We don`t have to settle down and get quiet first.

We can know what it means to have lasting peace and joy and have that assurance in our hearts that He is well pleased with us and that we could enter heaven immediately without having to clean up anything first - that secret sin that we have failed over and over to get under control.

Brothers it is a great thing but the reason we want it must be pure. It is to be for Him. He needs us to be pure so He can safely reveal Himself to us and reveal the secrets of His heart.

So lets pray for one another and seek Him with a passion.

Brenda

O

Oracio May 12, 2013

Sister, as I read your post I thought, "this is a description of every single child of God, though some are more sensitive to their sins than others."

I can testify to walking in that state which you mention there, though I would not call it a "second blessing" or "sinless perfection". I would probably call it walking in a state of having no known or willful sins. You experience that when you get born again, when you truly repent of all your sins and trust in Christ. Immediately at true conversion the chains of sin are broken, the heavy burden of sin is lifted and removed, and you are cleansed of every single sin through the blood of His cross. You "enter into His rest" through child-like faith in the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. You begin to experience joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that passes understanding which you knew nothing of before you were saved.

Yet the Lord has been faithful to show me areas where I still fall short and need to grow in by His grace and strength. I believe the important thing is that as true believers, we should not lose heart when, after walking in that state of no known sin, the Lord suddenly reveals to us an area that we need to correct through repentance. That is where some may get discouraged and think they may have lost their salvation because they are made aware of some sin they need to repent of. My simple advice there would be, repent of that sin and trust Christ to forgive and cleanse you of it (1John1:9), get back up and continue to pursue holiness through sanctification of the Spirit.

O

Oracio May 12, 2013

See, I think a huge problem in these days is that we have lowered the standard of true conversion. We have thought that one can be saved and practice known sin at the same time, living a life of complete defeat when it comes to sin. That is a clever deception of Satan. Though a true believer will not be perfect or sinless, he/she will be sensitive when confronted with any sin in his/her life.

Because of that misunderstanding and watering down of the gospel, there have been drastic effects of it in churches. And some have felt that the solution is to encourage professing Christians to pursue a "deeper" experience where you are are really set free from sin's bondage, when all the while the solution is to be aware of true and false conversion.

sermonindex May 12, 2013

Brenda as I said on the other thread there is a growth involved. You do not grow instantly into the likeness of Christ. Just as a child must grow into an adult. So one must grow into the likeness of Christ. As one grows more into Christ their hatred of sin and love for holiness will grow.

Bearmaster.

sermonindex May 12, 2013

With respect brother this thread is not to discuss the truth of the seond blessing - that crisis we come to after we have most certainly come to Christ for forgiveness and have known the honeymoon period but have gone on to sometimes years later we find ourselves unable to be overcomers especially with our besetting sin and all we get from others is that we are not saved after all when we know we are believers.

What it means is that the deniers have not actually reached the stage of conviction by the Holy Spirit over unholy lives and do not know yet that hunger and thirst for righteousness that Kenneth is experiencing praise God. Thanks for your contribution but please use the other thread for your objections.

ps and you too bearmaster thanks.

O

Oracio May 12, 2013

Brenda, thanks for the respectful way in which you replied to my posts. I guess I didn't see anything wrong in sharing my views on this topic here since it is a "Scriptures and Doctrine" thread, and I thought we share some similar views on sanctification. But for the moment I feel I've said enough on my part here. Unless anyone wants to inquire further from me on my views I think I will refrain from any further posts on this thread.

Blessings,
Oracio

sermonindex May 12, 2013

I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death. Wesley

I agree that this revelation given to Wesley is not conversion as some would have it. I also agree that it was a blessing to him. What I cannot comprehend, is in what way this constitutes a second blessing. Or why use that term at all. I have to say that Wesley is describing something here which any believer could comprehend in an instant of time even from the first moment of being saved. I further see that the last comment "saved me from the law of sin and death" carries a further weight of understanding. What is not so clear, is what understanding. Is it the same as saying "the power of sin and death working in my members" or is it an affirmation that even continued sin is "reckoned with?" This seems important if only because it attends to the meaning of holiness. That Wesley comprehended this need before this experience must be so, otherwise he was not saved before hand at all. It is not the need for holiness which makes victory certain but obedience, and yet Wesley acknowledges that before this specific revelation he was variously walking under the Law and under grace. Both with and without success no doubt. I guess anyone who walks under the Law, comprehending that the Law of God is good, righteous and holy will inevitably discover that the flesh can strive to keep the Law of God with varying degrees of success. Any doctrine which supports that view may simply lead to self righteousness and the inevitable stumbling along the way. On the other hand I know many believers, including myself who truly do comprehend the eternal security which Wesley speaks of here, predicated on Christ' sacrifice for sin, yet who do not know what sinless perfection is in experience of their real lives. In short the discovery of this precious truth which Wesley received here if laid hold of fully ought to lead to a basis for trusting and resting in the finished work of the cross.

Terms like sinless perfection, entire sanctification and even "there remains a sabbath rest" have no meaning outside of the revelation itself. When I was first saved I actually thought for a few weeks that I would never sin again. I realise that this was immature, but I have to say that what made me think this way was simply the corresponding light of Christ given and the comprehension that in the presence of Christ it is impossible to desire or else to sin. Given that this presence of the Lord does not remain in this way (your honeymoon) clearly there has to be a crisis of some sort. The desire to be holy is a compulsion when the Lord is comprehended yet when He draws back to teach us how to walk and follow Him, we are become for a while like desperate children seeking for their parents. It is a wretched feeling at best as well as a discouragement if the enemy comes in because we fail to trust the Lord in it. Yet the revelation which Wesley describes remains even in this hour of difficulty. In summary what you have called the second blessing appears to mean the cross.

sermonindex May 13, 2013

Yes indeed it is the cross. A second visit to it because the first one did not reveal the fullness of what Christ has done for us. I don`t know whether this is due to lack of teaching or whether it is inevitable that we fall from our first love (yes I recall that period when I was not sinning and would have died for Him in a flash at that moment - later on I would have to think about it first). Perhaps we need to sink into the depths of despair first before we are willing to sacrifice the right to ourselves as Oswald Chambers calls it, at a much deepr and basic level, and then He becomes every breath even of our body.

I don`t know why I ever doubted the doctrine of ES myself afer seeing that indeed, when the Lord`s prescence is very powerfully with me, that I can walk without sin (it lasted three weeks at that time) It was impossible for me to sin as all I wanted was to please Him and I would rather have killed myself than hurt Him. It was however, a fortaste of what was to come. It is actually a return of it but much more profound. And you never recover from the wonder of it - that is why folk keep talking about it. It even overshadows conversion.

But then things begin to slip.

I know, the terms second blessing, entering His rest etc have no meaning outside of the revelation and are inadequate to describe it and second blessing is the worst one as we get many blessings. But it is one which people recognise and know what you are talking about.

Wesley does give a good definition actually, that is, being saved from the law of sin and death. When you do come to this crisis event, if you do that is, and it is unbelief that prevents it, you experience this salvation most powerfully. What believers do not understand, is that continuing sin whether deliberate or not, still separate us from God and bring spiritual death, that is to direct union with Him the sort of union that we felt right at the start.

We need to stop sinning so that we can be released from this law, long term (it can be reversed however). This is what happens when we have a second return of Christ revealing to us the full extent of the salvation He has gained for us and which probably we were too imature to conprehend.

This is one clue that tells me that Wesley was talking about this, and this was what had been missing for him previously. He had started reading holiness teaching, and when he came across the witness of the Moravians on the boat, he saw his lack as they remained without sin whereas he was afraid. If he was not a believer at that time he would not have been aware even that it was sinful to be afraid.

He says he was walking under law and grace, but an unsaved man cannot walk under grace at all. And in this early stage of a Christian walk, there is a lack of consistency in religious discipline and worship. It is up and down.

No doubt there are times for us all when there is a little oasis and a blessing here and there but it is when the power of sin has been broken, the power that breaks those things that we glibly call `our temperament` `our weakness` `our unfortunate experiences` which are merely an excuse for the sins we feel powerless over, that we understand what breaking the chains really means deeply and profoundly.

Of course we are grateful and ecstatic when we are first converted and are freed from gross sins of the flesh, but it is when we find things inside that we have no power over and which we fail repeatedly to stop like a temper for example that we really cry out in despair. It is when we are right back at the start of when we first knew Him that we are fee indeed.

blessings
Brenda

M

murrcolr May 14, 2013

Brenda

I am ready, I am aware of my condition, I have studied the scriptures and have read many books and testimonies and believe that God does do a deeper work in the believer after conversion that.

Over the last few months I have been urged to start surrendering my life, which I have started practising as I am aware God will want nothing less than a full surrender of myself to him and his will by faith...

Even last week I was thinking that I need to start seeking earnestly and thinking about the way I should go about seeking.

I was a bit reluctant to write on here but I decided to yield and humble myself.

Edit posted by mistake before I was ready to post..

sermonindex May 14, 2013

Dear Colin

It thrills my heart to hear those words.

The general advice is to be obedient up to light given, and some advise fasting. I would also add to this that many in charismatic circles who are seeking, have been exposed to an experience which is not Spirit Baptism and it is my light that this is interfering with the fulfillment of their desire for heart purity. Because of the deception involved, there is a problem with discernment and speaking in a language that is not understood, and which is notunder the control of the speaker, could be used by the enemy to stop the blessing. Yes I know that this idea is unacceptable to many, but I plead that there is nothing to lose by testing the spirits and ceasing tongue speaking to do so. As we are told to test the spirits (for good reason), there is no disobedience involved. I am not speaking against tongues generally, merely saying that this area is one which can be used by the enemy. I know a number of very urgent and sincere seekers who speak in tongues and nothing us happening for them, year in year out. There is a reason for this.

I am praying for you.

Brenda

M

murrcolr May 14, 2013

Brenda –

I am planning to fast. I don’t attend church and the only contact I have with Christians is on sermon index so no influences there..

I’m not opposed to talking in tongues , before I started attending a church building or was in contact with other Christians, God did something powerful in my live when I said a simple prayer, God I am fed up being this way change me.. As I lay down on my bed a wind left my body, then a wind start to blow back into me, once it stopped I sat up and spoke a new language was, once I stopped speaking I ask the question what was that and the answer that came to my mind was tongues.

My life has not been the same since that day.

Also to give you some back ground on the day that I decided to stop attending the church because of what I saw, God gave me a word, “You’ll be like Job” not what I wanted to hear but that’s what was said..

A few years later on a rig off West Africa with blisters appearing on my body, I remembered the word from heaven “You’ll be like Job”. So I decided to Fast and Pray, afterwards was when God broke through and made me aware of the sin that remained in me and through both Duncan Campbell’s testimony and Patricia Knoles book he made me aware of that he can set me from the sin that remains…

Since them my seeking has been more of a scriptures, testimonies and books rather than seeking the blessing itself…

A

a-servant May 15, 2013

Before we ask for a blessing - the basic question we have to ask ourselves is: Are we tired of all of our sins yet?

Or are we still comparing ourselves to others and conclude that we're not as bad as "that other guy?" - That would be a case of ignoring that it's still God that sets the standard of holiness. Let me quote someone on this:

Quote by Jeri Woods: "The church has LOST how to awaken sinner to their sin. we have no preachers who can 'awake people to their sin' from Gods point of view. Our preacher won't allow a sinner to feel the guilt of his sin for even a millisecond. The attitude is 'why should they feel guilty when they will just be forgiven anyway. Or they erroneously think the sinner feel guilty enough about their sin so I don't need to heap it on anymore. Theses both are false perceptions. A sinner mainly thinks their sin is not that egregious and that they are not as bad as that other person-alway pointing the finger at the person who has done worse. The church is suppose 'stop' the sinner in their tracks and get them to stop comparing themselves to others and get them to compare themselves to the law of God."

That's the exact reason why the law of God isn't preached anymore. We do not believe anymore that God has set a standard, so we develop our own. Our standard is now 'self'. And that's why the sin question is always viewed from that point of view we personally allow ourselves at the time, based on the current acknowledgment of our own sins. Think about how ridiculous that point of view really is, it's impossible to move from there.

Neither do we call a specific sin a sin anymore and allow ourselves to "feel the guilt of this sin for even a millisecond" - we might see a few doctrinal points differently than Jeri Woods but that downloadable book made me sick about my own sins:

Kingdom Transfer
http://www.holylivingnow.com/resources

we might not even realize what our sins are - it's not just the obvious things

J

JoshG May 15, 2013

For anyone interested in audio sermons on the topic of entire sanctification, second blessing, spirit filled, etc. try listening to James A Stewart, Duncan Campbell, Ernest O'Neill, Bill McLeod, Duncan Campbell, Zac Poonen, Alan Redpath, Hans R. Waldvogel, and Paris Reidhead on Sermonindex...

C

Christinyou May 22, 2013

What we need is to be delivered unto the Gospel that Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ to give to usward, Paul calls it the mystery given to him for, "youward".

Paul I the only man in the bible that Jesus Christ gave this gospel to, that is the mystery, "Christ in you". Paul is the only man that Jesus gave the working of the human being when it comes the living in Christ by the Christ living in us.

This is a little long but it gives the most complete character of Christ in the believer and how it pertains to salvation, wisdom, sanctification, righteousness and justification for the believer.

http://christ-life.org/gospelofdeliverance_files/myjukebox.html

Let me know what you think. To me it gives the closest understanding of how the human being operates under Gods plan chosen for us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world and why the Lamb had to be slain for that time also and those that would be in this plan of redemption of God's creation.

In Christ: Phillip

D

davidc May 22, 2013

Beloved brother Phillip

Thank you for this link. I've listened to the firsy two messages and love his simplicity in expounding the scriptures. It has encouraged me in my walk in Christ. I Especially like what he says in the first CD about us being created to receive perfectly Christ's life; and in the second CD, about us being God's offspring and that He as our Father takes full responsibility for us.

It's all His Grace. Looking forward to the last two CDs tomorrow night.

In Him

David

C

Christinyou May 23, 2013

David, I have been under this man's teaching, Warren Litzman, for almost 10 years and I still marvel when I hear these massages, over and over, it gives me solace and peace to rest in the complete sanctification of the only One that is, Jesus Christ, and He by the Father's Word is birthed in me.

It takes a work of the Holy Spirit to come to these truths'. I am blessed that you are blessed and may the Holy Spirit fill you with all the wisdom that is in Christ Jesus our life.

As Warren always says', "I see Jesus in you, because I see Jesus in me.

In Christ, your brother through our Brother and offspring of our Father:

Phillip

J

JoshG May 23, 2013

Youtube: Ernest O'Neill

His main focus was the doctrine of Entire Sanctification and seeing people come into the experience of it.

A

a-servant May 23, 2013

“This brings us to the one per-
son whom God could trust with
the knowledge of the mystery—the
Apostle Paul. As God plans things,
it is logical to assume that He
planned Paul’s life from its begin-
ning. He planned the development
of a person who could explain the
mystery. In time, he would be able
to carry out the duties of one who
was to be an Apostle to the Gentiles,
who were to be the people of the
“new creation race,” reborn by the
placing of another ‘Christ’ within
them.” (Warren Litzman, Messages
for the New Creation Race People, p. 9).

.... reborn by the placing of another ‘Christ’ within them.

another Christ? - "by the placing of"?

Then again, makes sense from his point of view, he is following "another Paul", not Jesus Christ.

He splits his understanding of Paul from the whole of the Bible and calls the result of what he teaches "the final gospel"

Quote: " Since no one in the Old Testament knew this final gospel and since Jesus of Nazareth did not teach this gospel (He taught Moses law) and since no other disciple or Apostle preached this message, it is well that Paul called it his gospel." by Warren Litzman - Why follow Paul?

In contrast here the real Paul: 1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

What I find more troubling however is this statement: "Jesus of Nazareth did not teach this gospel"

Mystery religions always want to touch the glory of Messiah, without meeting his conditions. Just focus on the mystery, they say, that's were the secret is hidden and don't worry about any foundations. What are Bible foundations good for anyway?

According to The Final Gospel by Warren Litzman: "Prophecy occupies at least 4/5 of the Bible and is based on law and legalism". So for him the greatest part of the Bible is law and legalism, and one has to study antinomians for a while to detect them, because only they come up with distortions like that. But not as extreme as him. So what is he actually calling the author of inspiration of the Bible then?

sermonindex May 23, 2013

"Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!"

Psalm 107:8

C

Christinyou May 23, 2013

Quote: """.... reborn by the placing of another ‘Christ’ within them.

another Christ? - "by the placing of"?"""

This is taking out of context of what Warren is saying, he is not saying "another Christ" but, placing of another in the believer which is Christ. The "another", is Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, in the believer, this is being born again by the incorruptible Seed of the Father.

A-servant, have you ever spoken to Mr. Litzman? You need to speak to him about your erroneous claims. He will be glad to speak to your misunderstandings of what he teaches.

This is where he is coming form; Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (Paul speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit)

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. (Paul speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit)

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Paul speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit)

In Christ: (By the Seed of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit)

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

As to the Law; Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Phillip