As a Father by David Servant (conditional salvation or OSAS?)

joliboy11 May 17, 2013

As a Father
by David Servant
Last month, George Sodini walked into a women's aerobics class at an LA Fitness Club just a few miles from where I live. He turned out the lights and began shooting into the darkness, firing fifty rounds. Within seconds, he killed three women and wounded nine others. Then he shot and killed himself.

According to his blog, he had been planning the killings and his suicide at LA Fitness for months in advance. In December, he wrote in that blog of the evangelical church he had attended for thirteen years, saying of the pastor, "This guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven."

Just one day before his murder spree and suicide, he wrote:

Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

The book he mentioned, The Integrity of God, is written by an author who teaches that believers cannot forfeit their salvation no matter how much they sin.

A few days later there was an article in our local newspaper titled,"'Once saved, always saved' — Deacon says killer rests in heaven." Here are a few excerpts:

George Sodini rests in heaven now because he professed a faith in Jesus years before his shooting rampage, a ________ Church leader said.

Jack ______, a deacon at the church Sodini attended for years, said the Bible makes it clear that "professing a faith in Jesus as savior means you will have complete eternal salvation."

"George is going to heaven, but he's not going to get his rewards," _______ said. He said that Sodini won't be offered all of heaven's benefits because of his sin.

"George was a professing believer."

Although many Christians who adhere to the doctrinal position of "once-saved-always-saved" would probably argue that George Sodini was never actually born again in the first place (and they might well be correct), the fact remains that the church he attended for thirteen years made it easier for him to murder three women. Worse, that particular church teaches exactly what a large percentage of evangelical churches do, that once a person is saved, he is permanently saved. Believers are supposedly unconditionally eternally secure, regardless of their lifestyles. No sin can keep them from heaven.

One of America's most well-known preachers, who was twice elected to be the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, who has written scores of best-selling Christian books, and who is heard around the world via his television and radio broadcasts, is a primary proponent of the doctrine of unconditional eternal security. In a book on this very subject, he wrote:

No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, "Murder?" Forgiven. "Stealing?" Forgiven. "Adultery?" Forgiven. "Worshiping idols?" Forgiven.

Note that he did not write, "No matter what you did prior to becoming a child of God, you are forgiven." He wrote, "No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven." His argument is that Jesus died for all our sins, so there is no future sin we can commit for which He didn't die. Our only danger is that of forfeiting special rewards in heaven.

That is grace gone mad.

And that kind of teaching is what leads people like George Sodini to think they can murder people yet go to heaven, even though Scripture teaches that no murderer will inherit eternal life (see 1 John 3:15; Rev. 21:8; 22:15).

That kind of teaching also leads people to think that their behavior has nothing to do with their ultimate salvation, even though Scripture teaches that no unrighteous person will inherit God's kingdom, which, according to Paul, includes fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, or swindlers (1 Cor. 6:9-10; see also Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:3-6). Jesus' own teaching certainly affirms this also.

So the question, "Can a genuine Christian forfeit his or her salvation" is answered by another question, "Can a genuine Christian become an adulterer (or an idolater, or a homosexual, or a thief, or a drunkard)? If the answer is "yes," then a genuine Christian can forfeit his or her salvation. Obviously, any of us has the capacity, as free moral agents, to become an adulterer or a thief and so on.

The answer to the question, "Can a genuine Christian forfeit his or her salvation," is also found in many other places in Scripture (see Matt. 18:21-35; 24:4-5, 11-13, 23-26, 42-51; 25:1-30; Luke 8:11-15; 11:24-28; 12:42-46; John 6:66-71; 8:31-32, 51; 15:1-6; Acts 11:21-23; 14:21-22; Rom. 6:11-23; 8:12-14, 17; 11:20-22; 1 Cor. 9:23-27; 10:1-21; 11:29-32; 15:1-2; 2 Cor. 1:24; 11:2-4; 12:21-13:5; Gal. 5:1-4; 6:7-9; Phil. 2:12-16; 3:17-4:1; Col. 1:21-23; 2:4-8, 18-19; 1 Thes. 3:1-8; 1 Tim. 1:3-7, 18-20; 4:1-16; 5:5-6, 11-15, 6:9-12, 17-19, 20-21; 2 Tim. 2:11-18; 3:13-15; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:6-19; 4:1-16; 5:8-9; 6:4-9, 10-20; 10:19-39; 12:1-17, 25-29; Jas. 1:12-16; 4:4-10; 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:5-11; 2:1-22; 3:16-17; 1 John 2:15-28; 5:16; 2 John 6-9; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:7, 10-11, 17-26; 3:4-5, 8-12, 14-22; 21:7-8; 22:18-19). Clearly, our eternal security is conditional, not unconditional. That is why we should, as the Bible teaches, "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12) and "pursue the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Nothing is more important.

There is a correlation between holiness and heaven because there is a correlation between belief and behavior. We are saved by grace through faith, but faith without works is dead and cannot save us (Eph. 2:8; Jas 2:14-26). I can't help but wonder how many people, just like George Sodini, are now in hell, when they fully expected to be in heaven, because they were trusting in a grace that God has never offered, a grace that is little more than a license to sin.

The Technicalities
Among those who are convinced that genuine believers can forfeit their salvation, there is sometimes debate over some technicalities. For example, some on the extreme fringes maintain that a Christian who lusts instantly forfeits his or her salvation since (1) no adulterer will inherit God's kingdom, and (2) since Jesus equated lust with adultery (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Matt. 5:28).

The plain fact is that there is no scripture which teaches that the moment a Christian lusts the Holy Spirit departs from him, or that he forfeits his sonship and salvation in Christ, or that if he were to die one second after his sin that God would cast him into hell. Rather, Scripture leads us to believe that God disciplines His wayward children---whom He loves so much---in order to lead them to repentance, and that He often succeeds. When Paul warns that no adulterer will inherit God's kingdom (1 Cor. 6:9-10), he was clearly talking about future, not immediate, consequences. The words "will inherit" are future tense. To claim, based on that warning, that any Christian who lusts or commits adultery instantly forfeits his or her salvation, is unwarranted.

So the Christian who commits adultery places his future, ultimate salvation in jeopardy. The Holy Spirit who indwells him, however, does not abandon him, but rather convicts him to bring him to repentance, a wonderful indication of God's grace. You may recall that God went to great lengths to bring David to repentance after he committed adultery and vicarious murder, and He succeeded. You may also recall that David, under conviction, prayed to the Lord, "Do not cast me away from Thy presence, and do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me" (Psa. 51:11). David believed the Holy Spirit was still with him. The prophet Nathan's divine exposure of David, and David's Spirit-induced conviction were both indications of God's continued love for him.

Concerning David, no scripture states that he forfeited his salvation during that time. And what would be gained if we could ascertain with certainty that David did forfeit his salvation for a time? The fact is, if he did forfeit it, he got it back! Why even debate the question of whether or not David would have gone to hell if he had died one second after he lusted after Bathsheba? The fact is, he didn't die then. God, who holds the power of life and death in His hands, kept David alive long enough for him to repent.

When a genuine believer sins, God does not rub His hands together and laugh with glee over another opportunity to disown one of His beloved children. Rather, He grieves and loves, and goes to work to bring a wayward child back to Him. Anyone who is truly born again is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and because of it, he experiences an inward resistance to sin whenever he is tempted. If he yields, he immediately feels conviction and guilt. If he softens his heart, he feels remorse which results in confession and repentance. The Holy Spirit never left him the entire time. He has not been "un-born again" and then born again again! No such concept is taught in Scripture.

I think it is interesting that those fringe folks who claim that such teaching "gives people a license to sin" often teach that a Christian who falls into adultery regains his salvation if he repents. Isn't that just as much a "license to sin"? Should we not be concerned that some Christians, upon hearing such teaching, might think that they can commit adultery as many times as they want, as long as they confess and repent after each immoral act?

Of course, such a concern is nonsense, simply because no true Christian is looking for ways to commit adultery with impunity. The imaginary Christian who commits adultery without concern is indeed a straw man if there ever was one. Likewise, teaching what Scripture teaches, that the Christian who falls into adultery forfeits inheriting God's kingdom if he doesn't repent, yet does not instantly forfeit the indwelling Holy Spirit and his sonship and salvation in Christ, is not giving any true Christian a "license to sin." True Christians don't want to sin.

Paul warns believers:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21).

Those are not my words, but the apostle Paul's words. Notice he says that those who "practice such things" will not inherit God's kingdom, not those who commit one sin in that list one time. He was writing about people whose lives are characterized by the deeds of the flesh.

Similarly, John wrote,

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:7-9).

The new birth changes us so that we have an inward resistance to sin. For that reason, no true Christian could fall into adultery without a huge degree of inward resistance beforehand and an equal amount of conviction afterwards.

So let us maintain balance in regard to the holiness and grace of God. There is nothing more dangerous than someone with two verses of Scripture that he has strung together to create a doctrine. We need to take the whole Bible into consideration.

This balance was perfectly revealed in Jesus, the perfect representation of His Father, who was amazingly longsuffering with sinners.

For example, Jesus solemnly warned, "Whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (10:33). Remember that Peter denied the Lord three times before men. Did Jesus instantly disown Peter because of it? When the cock crowed after Peter's third denial, did Jesus look up to heaven and say, "Father, I deny that I know that wicked man who just denied Me"?

No, Jesus simply looked at Peter, and He didn't even silently lip the words, "I told you so," (which is no doubt what I would have done). When their eyes met, Peter was crushed. He went out and wept bitter tears. Scripture says, "A contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise" (Ps. 51:17).

It seems that a few days later Peter was still drowning in his remorse. When Jesus appeared to him and the other disciples along the Sea of Galilee, He went to work on restoring Peter, first through an affirming sign of a miraculous catch of fish and then by providing a good breakfast. The message? "Peter, I still love you."

Then, thoughtfully taking Peter apart from the others, Jesus asked him the question that Peter had surely been asking himself: "Do you love Me more than these?" (21:15). Remember that Peter had boasted that his love for Jesus was greater than the other apostles. He had said, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away" (26:33). His boast, followed by his utter failure, surely haunted him.

In most translations it appears that Jesus asked Peter the same question three times, but He actually didn’t. The first two times, Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him using the Greek verb agapeo, which each time is translated "love." The final time, He used the Greek verb phileo, which is also translated "love." Agape is a self-denying, sacrificial love, whereas philos is a lesser love based on common interests and mutual benefits.

Interestingly, when Jesus first asked Peter if he loved Him with an agape love, Peter replied, "Yes, Lord, You know I phileo You." It was probably said with sigh of regret, and it meant, "Yes, Lord, You are well aware from my actions that my love for you falls short of agape." Jesus repeated His question a second time, and Peter responded with the same answer.

The third time, however, Jesus literally asked him, "Peter, do you love me with phileo love?" That is likely why Scripture tells us that Peter was so grieved at the third question (John 21:17). I don't think Jesus asked him this because He Himself didn't know the answer, but perhaps because He wanted Peter to affirm it to help lift him from his despondency. Sometimes when we fail, we give up, which is a greater failure. Failures should make us more determined to do better, rising up in God's grace. Peter replied, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I phileo You" (21:17). Peter needed to hear himself say that. It was true, and it was something affirmative.

More importantly, after each of Peter's three replies, Jesus gave him a commandment: "Tend My lambs...Shepherd My sheep...Tend My sheep" (21:15-17). Surely these commands were also intended to encourage Peter. Even though he had failed the Lord, Jesus had not given up on him, and there would be plenty of future opportunities to prove his love for Jesus. The Lord had work for him to do.

I suspect that is also why Jesus then told Peter, "When you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go" (John 21:18). John knew that this was a reference to Peter's future martyrdom. We might wonder why Jesus foretold Peter then about that. Personally, I think it was also meant to encourage him. Peter was so disappointed in himself. He had shown by his actions that he was not willing to die for Jesus. Jesus assured him that would change. He would glorify God in martyrdom. Tradition tells us that Peter requested to be crucified upside down, considering himself unworthy to die in the same position as Christ.

When we fail and our hearts are not contrite, God works to bring us to contrition and repentance. When we are contrite, He works to affirm and restore us, just as He did with Peter, and just as does any good parent. Our God is in the redemption business. He's our Father, not a cold-blooded probation officer who is hoping to put us away for good.

Just as a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him (Psalm 103:13).

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need (Heb. 4:15-16).

from: http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/e_teachings/as-a-father

sermonindex May 17, 2013

So the question, "Can a genuine Christian forfeit his or her salvation" is answered by another question, "Can a genuine Christian become an adulterer (or an idolater, or a homosexual, or a thief, or a drunkard)? If the answer is "yes," then a genuine Christian can forfeit his or her salvation. Obviously, any of us has the capacity, as free moral agents, to become an adulterer or a thief and so on. David Servant

There is not the remotest possibility that anyone would understand this kind of argument. Its complete madness. Either new birth means new birth or it means nothing at all. Its all well and good to go on and explain that the Father does His level best to bring a disobedient son to repentance. It is another thing to claim that it is possible for a believer (one who is born again) to suffer eternal destruction. I reject it completely. This doctrine, that a born again believer can perish eternally, by itself has done as much harm to the gospel as is the opposite doctrine is doing now. OSAS is false but not because salvation is not eternal, it is because salvation is broader than simply being born again.

From another article:

I really don’t believe we need to concern our selves as believers with eternity (Ecclesiastes 3:11). If we had not been saved with an eternal salvation then the scriptures would not tell us that we are saved with an eternal salvation (Isaiah 43:13, 45:17 Hebrews 5:9). Yet it does, and not just once, but many times (Mark 16:20, John 3:15-16, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 10:28, 2 Timothy 1:9 1 John 2:25). What we need to concern ourselves with I believe is the coming kingdom of heaven (Isaiah 9:7, Matthew 6:33, Acts 1:3, Acts 19:8, Acts 20:25, 2 Thessalonians 1:5, 2 Timothy 4:1). The parable of the talents is concerned with that fact and that fact alone. This parable also shows that the opposite to being in the kingdom of heaven means “outer darkness.” Yet the darkness will pass away even as these heavens and this earth will pass away. When the world has become the kingdom of heaven, heralded by the cry of an angel (Rev 11:15). So also the kingdom will pass away, heralded by armageddon. Yet as it has been said, eternal life is Christ is us and all those who believe in Christ. Eternity on the other hand will exist even for those who are in the lake of fire. Eternity and eternal life are synonymous yet different. Could we say that Satan who is to be in the lake of fire for eternity has eternal life? Or the false prophet, or the beast? We know their end because it is already written; it is the lake of fire. First the false prophet and the beast (Revelation 19:20), and then lastly Satan (Revelation 20:7) according to the order of scripture (Revelation 20:10). This order itself has to do with the coming kingdom. The false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire when the kingdom commences, which corresponds to the appearing of Christ. Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the kingdom comes to an end on this earth, which corresponds to physical Armageddon. Then comes the judgement of the Great White Throne. Being cast into outer darkness does not correspond to eternity. It corresponds to the kingdom of heaven on earth, which is a measure of 1000 years (Revelation 20:2-7).

In this period of time which is measured by the return of the Lord Jesus and the Great White Throne, there is both the heavens and the earth, the kingdom and outer darkness; there is death and there is hell! Hell and Death are synonymous, yet speak of two dominions and two keys (Revelation 1:18). The establishment of an understanding of the Kingdom and the corresponding outer darkness are synonymous, yet speak of two dominions a well as keys.

The Establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven is given to Christ (Revelation 1:18) whereas the keys of the power of the Kingdom are given to the church (Matthew 16:19). Similarly, as with life, there is life and there is abundant life. Eternal life, which is at once Christ in us, yet for those who reign with Christ also, for 1000 years, life becomes abundant life. Abundant life is expressed in the kingdom with Christ as his priests and kings over the nations. Life is the free gift of God to all who ask, believing that He is. Abundant life is faithfulness in all that which we are given when we believed (talents)

All men born of Adam die and all men born of Christ will live (1 Corinthians 15:22) Death is a reality even for the one who has life in Christ and has Christ in them. As it it is written “It is appointed unto men to die once then cometh judgement.” (Hebrews 9:27). All will die yet not all will spend their eternity in the lake of fire, because as it is written “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26). Hell already exists and it was created for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:31). Today it is also the store house for tormented souls who are perishing or else are imprisoned (Luke 16:23-28). Outer darkness does not yet appear, because it cannot be comprehended until the corresponding light of Christ in full visibility appears also. Then as it is written, “we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is”. To have the life of Christ yet to be cast out of the kingdom is outer darkness. It is to see Christ at His return, as those who have believed [stewards] yet to be rejected by Him from His kingdom. It is written, no man can see the kingdom, nor enter therein accept he be born again” (John 3:3). Yet outer darkness is not the lake of fire, though it may well be a compartment of hell. Yet even hell is not the eternal resting place of tormented souls, for it too, having given up the dead that is in it, is also cast into the lake of fire, along with death which shall also give up those yet held by its power (Revelation 20:13-14). All this is at the last judgement of Christ when those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Howbeit that those who have life can also taste hell? Or howbeit that at the last judgement of the Great White Throne, death and hell give up they that are in them? What is hell and what is death? What is the kingdom come? What is outer darkness?

Then as it is written, those whose names are NOT written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, wherein are the false prophet, the beast and satan. Is God the author of confusion? Does He raise the dead at the end of the age to judge their works after the kingdom of 1000 years is complete only to pronounce the second death on every soul of man which has no part in the kingdom? Or does God mock men also, and leave His wicked and lazy servant who is without the kingdom, despairing of even life itself, though he believe in Christ? Will they not be saved as it is written. “Whosoever believeth on Me, will not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). That which is set before all men, is faith in Christ crucified for sin unto eternal life, and thereafter for those who believe, it is the cross of obedience unto the kingdom. Believing, is everlasting life, it is to live and not to perish. Stewardship is seeking the kingdom of heaven faithfully and wisely, it is abundant life. It is to reign with Christ in the kingdom.

“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. “He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. “He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. “And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” Matthew 10:38-42
“If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.” Matthew 16:24-27

Perhaps some brethren might actually read these passages of scripture which I have made reference to, just as I now will read every passage David Servant has made reference to and comment on every one of them.

rnieman May 17, 2013

Armkelly,

How do you deal with all the warning passages in scripture?

Are they warnings?
What are they warning of?, etc?

Russ

sermonindex May 18, 2013

How do you deal with all the warning passages in scripture? Russ

I am not entirely certain which warnings you are referring to Russ.

rnieman May 18, 2013

Amrkelly,

The following are some:

1Timothy 1:18-19

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, [my] son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

Hebrews 2:1-4

1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away [from it]. 2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

Hebrews 3:12-14

12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is [still] called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 6:4-6

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

sermonindex May 18, 2013

All the warnings you have posted Russ have the same meaning in as much as they contain an explanation of sorts regarding the consequences of continuing in a sinful life without repentance. Beyond that our agreement ends. You say along with others that these warnings amount to proof that a born again believer can perish and spend their eternity in the lake of fire. I reject that and hold to the truth that if a believer for whatsoever reason continues in sin, and by that means hardens their heart so that they become unable to repent of continued sin, they may find themselves rejected of Christ and His kingdom for a thousand years. The difference is obvious and clear. Of course the reality in most of this, despite the cleverness of those who preach eternal destruction for those believers who persist in sin, is that they don’t usually have the courage to say that these same brethren will spend their eternity in the lake of fire. It is preferable to say that they will spend eternity in hell. Unfortunately this cannot be possible as Hell is empty when it is thrown into the lake of fire. I have to tell you brother that some of the most unmerciful people I have met believe that the only way to ensure eternal salvation is to keep the law. On the other hand some of the most sweetest people I have met believe the complete opposite. This ought not to surprise us really as these two things are just manifestations of the flesh driven by false doctrines. Neither of them are true.

The truth is much simpler than either of these two extremes. It is Christ in you the hope of glory. Not I but Christ. Well I am pretty sure this subject can be debated endlessly, no doubt it will be. Then one day it will be settled. I hope I haven’t misrepresented your view.

rnieman May 18, 2013

Amrkelly:

You stated:

" I reject that and hold to the truth that if a believer for whatsoever reason continues in sin, and by that means hardens their heart so that they become unable to repent of continued sin, they may find themselves rejected of Christ and His kingdom for a thousand years. The difference is obvious and clear."

Would you mind expounding on this statement a little more.

Russ

sermonindex May 18, 2013

" I reject that and hold to the truth that if a believer for whatsoever reason continues in sin, and by that means hardens their heart so that they become unable to repent of continued sin, they may find themselves rejected of Christ and His kingdom for a thousand years. The difference is obvious and clear."
Would you mind expounding on this statement a little more.
Russ

I suppose one would have to ask ones self a serious question. Do you believe that Christ is returning to this earth physically, that his foot will touch the mount in Jerusalem and that He will establish a physical kingdom here on earth and reign with a rod of iron over the nations? If the answer to that question is no then read no more because it would prove useless.

If the answer is yes than ask your self another question. WHY?

Why would Jesus reign over the nations. After all there are kings and nations in the new heavens and the new earth. Why not just simply judge all men at that time of appearing and bring the whole sorry mess to an end of days?

If we don’t believe that this world is a sorry mess then that’s another matter as well. In that case there is nothing to say.

Some saints believe that we can make the world a better place, ready for Christ’ return. So they live their best life now believing that involvement with the world is a duty and a necessity. There is nothing to to say to such brethren either. We can only watch and see how involvement with the world leads to every kind of excess and the evil pride of life.

Some brethren believing that the world is a sorry mess seek to win men and women for Christ and thereafter live in the world but not of the world.

Some taking the name of Christ simply live in the world.

So when Christ returns what will be the consequence? Will he say to the “manifest sons of God” well done for making the world better for me? Or will the Lord say to those who have loved not the world and resisted their own inclinations arising out of the evil pride of life, well done for winning men and women through the gospel of grace? After all what purpose a kingdom which has no citizens? Or will the Lord Himself by His own authority judge the nations (not individual men and women) and then rule over the earth as King of kings and Lord of Lords? How we answer these questions and many more such questions will make certain how and what we believe we are doing here and now, despite the fact that we no longer belong to this world; as well as what purpose of God lies in the Kingdom itself.

Why does Christ even need a Kingdom? The whole of creation was made by His hands. Why hang on to this corruption any longer than is necessary? What would be a better time to wrap the whole thing up and start again with those who are saved, than at the time of the Lord’ return?

As far as I know the answers to these questions lie in three areas of reality. The first is the righteousness of the Father in both showing mercy and in judging unrighteousness of men and angels through the death of Christ. The second has to do with bringing all things into subjection to the Father through Christ Jesus. The third has to do with Christ Himself. The love of the world is enmity with God. It is God’s irreconcilable enemy. As long as Satan is the ruler of the world it will continue to be God’ enemy. The world crucified the Son of Man and put Him to an open shame. This act made the world itself God’ enemy. Yet even after this the Father still shows mercy. At what point in time will the patience of God come to an end? And when it does what will be the consequence?

Revelation tells us of a Kingdom which will last one thousand years. It is the kingdom of the earth become the Kingdom of Heaven. It is Christ physically returned in the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead. Satan is bound for the whole of this kingdom so that he can no longer influence men. It is a kingdom which begins with the judgement of the nations (the living) so that those nations which are rejected of Christ, are rejected from the kingdom, and ends with the judgement of the dead (Hell and Death). Those nations which are rejected from the kingdom are sent to Hell. Yet those who are in Death and Hell are judged according to their works at the end of the thousand years. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are caste into the lake of fire, which is in the new heavens and the new earth.

Again if you do not receive this or cannot believe it then there is nothing further to say at all. It would be a waste of time and effort amounting to vanity. But if you read the whole of scripture from Genesis to Revelation you will find that the kingdom of heaven has been in God’ sight since the foundation of the earth. Everything which concerns Israel, The Law of Moses, The Prophets, Christ Himself and the Church all have an elected part to play in this work of the Father. None of it is a matter of choosing the Father, it is in every part a matter of the Father’ choosing. It speaks of the sovereignty and foreknowledge of God. The only part which speaks of men’s choosing is in choosing to be obedient in believing the Father' witness. In this regard even Christ Himself was obedient unto death. The thousand year kingdom is the thing which is in sight because it is Christ’ own reward as an obedient Son. This too is a matter of faith and revelation of the Father. If we do not have such a revelation no doubt we will reject even this.

In the end the issue of eternal life abides with the Father. Who can say “I believe because I chose to believe”. This would be a conceit. If we believe it is because Christ was faithful and the Father desires that none perish. If we are become the children of God it is because we were chosen from the foundation of the world in Christ Jesus. If we comprehend that we have been called and chosen then we know that we have been called to believe in the Son of God by the Father and we have been chosen to be faithful and obedient servants. This choosing of God belongs to God, but obedience lies with men. If we do believe we have already received eternal life. If having eternal life we reject obedience as children of God we will be rejecting the kingdom to come not eternity. Eternity belongs to the Father, the kingdom is given to the Son. The Son is coming with His rewards in His hand and they are to be in the kingdom.

Beyond this simple understanding I don't have a formal view of anything. It seems to me incomprehensible that a true child of God could know the certainty of eternal salvation and at the same time not be completely moved with gratitude in a determination to please the Father and to not only believe in His Son but to freely and completely submit to Him in obedience. The only thing which will damage this reality here and now is unconfessed sin leading to disobedience and a hardening of the heart. In the worst instance this itself will result in being forbidden entry into the thousand year kingdom of Christ. I do not believe than anyone who is truly born again of the Spirit of God will be rejected of the Father even though they spend a thousand years in the suffering which Hell represents. That is no trivial matter. I have often wondered why those who do speak of believers being in Hell do not speak of believers being in the lake of fire. Perhaps it is a reflection of their sincerity in speaking a reality which cannot be overlooked for those who wilfully sin and continue in it, yet cannot speak of the second death or the lake of fire. I have no doubt as well that some brethren use these things to control believers through fear. I don't see the justification of that when it is possible to show mercy and compassion trusting that the Father will complete what is started in Christ Jesus.

Well there we are brother! An heretic now! LOL

rnieman May 20, 2013

I will try to interact with some of your post. If I understand you correctly you hold to God choosing unto salvation from eternity past those whom he wishes to save. If that's the case whom is God talking to in the verses I listed 2 posts ago, and what are they telling their audience?

Russ

sermonindex May 20, 2013

Can I remind you that my participation in this thread hinged on my response to these words:

So the question, "Can a genuine Christian forfeit his or her salvation" is answered by another question, "Can a genuine Christian become an adulterer (or an idolater, or a homosexual, or a thief, or a drunkard)? If the answer is "yes," then a genuine Christian can forfeit his or her salvation. Obviously, any of us has the capacity, as free moral agents, to become an adulterer or a thief and so on. David Servant

Now to answer you last question Russ.

It would be necessary to read the whole of 1 Timothy from the beginning to comprehend who the words are spoke to [Timothy] and what therefore they are intended to mean, as well as who they are spoken about. Paul established firstly that the Law was not made for the righteous but the unrighteous and then lists various works of unrighteousness. These include blasphemy of God. Then Paul acknowledges that he was shown grace himself, because although he once blasphemed God, he did so in unbelief. Then and only then does Paul say what he means regarding two men by name. These are Hymenaeus and Alexander. Paul delivers them unto Satan so that they might learn not to blaspheme God. Therefore in speaking about shipwrecking ones faith it clearly speaks about these two men specifically, but would of necessity be a warning given to Timothy to teach in the church that any believer could shipwreck their faith.

The question therefore as to what is meant by shipwrecking ones faith may be summed up simply. Any one who having believed and therefore is in possession of the grace of God, ceases to be innocent of their blasphemies and sins if they are again entangled in them precisely because, as Paul himself experienced, it is one thing to blaspheme God in unbelief and to sin continuously, it is another to do so as one born again. What the blasphemy is, is another question as well. And why someone comes to a place where they blaspheme God, and yet know that God is indeed righteous and holy, is also another matter. In speaking to the centrality of the implication of the original post by David Servant, which infers that a born again believer can suffer eternal destruction, I still completely and unreservedly reject that claim. The fact that these men were dealt with by Paul, exercising the apostolic authority given to Him, by which he is in fact able to hand these men over in this way, demonstrates by the very words themselves, that it is in order that they might learn not to blaspheme God. The grace which is rejected when wilful and deliberate sin is practised, (be it one sin or many), necessitates an activity on the part of some one other than the one who has shipwrecked their faith, or is on the way to doing so. It may be the prayers of a “righteous man” availing a benefit for the one sinning, or in the extreme case of these two men it may be being handed over to satan. The centrality of this lies in having removed oneself from the grace of God by wilful and continuous sin. The grace of God therefore in such an instance would of necessity mean another man intervening compassionately. A ship which is wrecked upon the rocks cannot remove itself, it can only be restored by another. It may also mean in severe cases that the ship is completely ruined and may never sail again. Only God Himself knows such things. Ours is not to judge unto condemnation it is to judge with a righteous judgement.

As for your comment that my thoughts hinge on a belief that those who believe into Christ Jesus were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world is also incorrect. I believe what I believe because this is what was given to me when I first believed by the Father. I have tested it for nearly thirty years with many tears and have seen men go unto the grave, as well as men repent. Both the grave and repentance are the mercy and grace of God to such a man who continues in wilful and continuous sin or else who begins to blaspheme God again. The very fact that men do live in continuous and wilful sin and do blaspheme God, thereby becoming a stain on the consciences of others and yet live, may be the more proof that they have no believed, but are rather deceived and deceivers. I have also been shown mercy as well. I do not hold legalistic doctrines which when held up like banners only serve to cause men to stumble. Those who do that no doubt do not comprehend the consequences of their legalistic inclinations. He who has been forgiven much ought to be able to forgive as well. As I have been forgiven much I am always willing to ask God for His forgiveness on behalf of others. Yet it is written that we are chosen in Christ Jesus from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. My personal prayer is that the Lord will restore to the church again, for a season, such judgement as was evident in the apostolic church, that those who truly do believe might learn to walk in the fear of the Lord again. That would be a marvellous thing.

rnieman May 20, 2013

You wrote in regards to the 1 Timothy 1:19:

“. A ship which is wrecked upon the rocks cannot remove itself, it can only be restored by another. It may also mean in severe cases that the ship is completely ruined and may never sail again. Only God Himself knows such things. Ours is not to judge unto condemnation it is to judge with a righteous judgement.”

***Agreed here and yes God is the ultimate judge of this. But what's the verse as well as the other verses telling believer? Is falling away ultimately a possibility?

Additionally you stated:

“As for your comment that my thoughts hinge on a belief that those who believe into Christ Jesus were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world is also incorrect. I believe what I believe because this is what was given to me when I first believed by the Father. I have tested it for nearly thirty years with many tears and have seen men go unto the grave, as well as men repent. Both the grave and repentance are the mercy and grace of God to such a man who continues in wilful and continuous sin or else who begins to blaspheme God again.”

*** I respect that. Repentance is an act of the will that is under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. What did you mean when you stated previously:

“This choosing of God belongs to God, but obedience lies with men. If we do believe we have already received eternal life.”
“In the end the issue of eternal life abides with the Father. Who can say “I believe because I chose to believe”. This would be a conceit.”

Russ

sermonindex May 21, 2013

Is falling away ultimately a possibility? Russ

To answer that question in simplicity would give rise to fear and the attacks of the enemy. Yet for all that it must be answered.

Satan is for the most part unconcerned and uninterested with the majority of believers in the direct personal sense. His interest lies primarily with those who are fervently determined to obey God. Yet even of these men and women he is powerless if they themselves fix their sight on the Father in heaven and the Lord Jesus Christ at His right hand. Like a child unaware of the dangers all around them, such as are of a pure affection, are unassailable.

In my own understanding one of the greatest deceptions of our age has been the pressing of all believers into a mind which was not given them to comprehend. It is a mind which speaks about a few who are chosen by Christ and given by Christ for the purpose of being His workmen. It has made for a circumstance of pride and has led many saints into a battle which they are not equipped to wage in this direct sense. In it they become fearful and in fear they fall quickly to their own harm. Others become proud and conceited believing that they are become great souls and victors in battle. They press on and become as sorcerers not realising that they are labouring in the power of their souls and not in the power of a new life in Christ.

What these brethren altogether, have not comprehended, is that the battle in their own day, whether won or lost, is predicated on another victory which was fought and won by the Lord Himself, and which was fought precisely to make them fit for heaven. And not only them, but all men through the shed blood of Christ. If we move beyond this position we will no doubt forget to confess our sins and by that means harden our hearts.

Serving the Father is not simply a matter of positional salvation (in Christ) it is a matter of positional experience (in the world). This very conflict is waged in the mind and therefore it is the mind which either yields itself in fear to the enemy, or else to the Father in heaven. It must be completely clear that in this the attitude of an individual, whether, (their fleshy inclinations altogether, or their sincere faith in Christ), will determine whether they do in fact stand or fall in experience of knowing Christ. This is true for all believers. For the brother or sister it is a simple matter of walking faithfully in the light which is given, trusting Christ for their salvation. For the one who is to serve others and to guard the flock, it is a matter of truly comprehending the Father and the Son.

I have seen that the greatest deceivers are those who on the one hand have such an opinion of themselves that they end up lording it over the flock, even though they may well have a calling of God in their lives equal to the task of shepherd. Others, do not so easily Lord it over the flock, but due to the evil pride of life, are driven on invisibly, by the enemy of their souls, to puff up the flock and through that means of stumbling other men, profit from them by their activities, and in this, end up lording it over the flock as well. One might say that these are two kinds of men. Both are wicked, one much more that the other. It is the former man who goes on to become truly wicked in the end.

You ought to comprehend that such a man as is fallen into wickedness to an end of making ruin other men’s faith, is himself fallen into wickedness having first comprehended the Majesty of God. All others are simply shadows fleeting about the fringes of blackest darkness fearing to enter fully thereinto. In the end the former man can press those who yet walk in the shadows and they will flee not because of the light, but because of the darkness. In fleeing they flee to the light. This is because in the end such a man will be given over to his own wickedness. His activities will increase and his lying ways will become more in keeping with gross darkness than with any measure of light. Such as these when they are comprehended, ought to produce a holy and righteous fear of the Lord, precisely because of their exceptional wickedness. Yet they are of all men to be rejected out of hand. Such as these are truly lost without hope, even though they were once found.

Do you know such a man brother? If not then why seek for one? It is one thing to hold to an eternal truth concerning the mercy of God, it is another thing to comprehend true wickedness. In such a day, do we now live. Why spend our time concerned about whether it is possible to perish, if we can yet lay hold of Christ. As long as we have the day then let us walk in the light ourselves and in our own obedience turn back those who are as though they were perishing, not by a display of wickedness, but by Christ Himself working in us. Yet for all that there are those who though they have given themselves over to wickedness, still cannot escape the sovereign power of God. Even Satan is simply an instrument in the hand of our God.

It is not without good reason that the wheat and the chaff are separated in the fierce heat of the air. It is the very same element in which the prince of the power thereof labours, from which he is soon to be cast down. Then they [the saints] overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony, because they loved not their lives even unto death. My own concern is with this day not with another day. In the end the day of the Lord will settle the matter completely.....by the breath of His mouth.

What did you mean when you stated previously:  “This choosing of God belongs to God, but obedience lies with men. If we do believe we have already received eternal life.”
 “In the end the issue of eternal life abides with the Father. Who can say “I believe because I chose to believe”. This would be a conceit.”

Without the choosing of God no one could believe. So therefore it must be true that whilst we have chosen Christ Himself, it is because we are ourselves chosen of God in Christ.

Christ Himself is our full armour of God. He is the way to the Father. He is our garment of praise. There is nothing outside of Him, He is all things to men. If Christ is preached crucified for sin and raised from the dead, then men will believe and those who believe but are weak in their faith, will turn back. John 6:37, 7:65-70.

rnieman May 21, 2013

Quote:
________________________________________
What did you mean when you stated previously:  “This choosing of God belongs to God, but obedience lies with men. If we do believe we have already received eternal life.”
 “In the end the issue of eternal life abides with the Father. Who can say “I believe because I chose to believe”. This would be a conceit.”
________________________________________

You replied:

"Without the choosing of God no one could believe. So therefore it must be true that whilst we have chosen Christ Himself, it is because we are ourselves chosen of God in Christ."

So would you say that individuals are not chosen unto salvation before eternity past, but rather Christ is the predestined ONE whom is head of the Church (corporate election, Ephesians 1). Similar to the OT, where Israel the Nation(corporate) was the predestined group, but as Paul anguishes in Romans 9:3-6, specifically verse 6: but [it is] not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are [descended] from Israel;

Paul states not all of ethnic Israel is spiritual Israel, the same holding true in the NT Paul end up making a similar statement in Ephesian 1:1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and [who are] faithful in Christ Jesus:

In essence Paul writes his letter to the faithful at Ephesus. If we look at the church today, the same holds true, not everyone that attends is saved, but there are definitely the faithful found there.

Russ