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Children and the Rod of Correction

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proudpapa May 30, 2013

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

American civilization has undergone tremendous social shifting in the last fifty years in virtually every facet of its culture. This transformation is evident, for example, in the area of the family and parental discipline. From the beginning of this nation, most Americans have believed in the value of corporal punishment. This discipline has included spanking the child using a variety of instruments, including a “switch,” paddle, razor strap, yardstick, belt, or hand. The last generation to have experienced this approach to parenting on a wide scale was the World War II generation. Due to the adverse influence of social liberals and alleged “specialists” in human behavior and child psychology, the thinking of many Americans has now been transformed to the extent that corporal punishment has come to be viewed as “child abuse”—even by the judiciary.

Make no mistake: genuine child abuse is taking place every day in America. Some parents are burning, torturing, and even killing their children. However, the abuse of a good thing is no argument against its legitimate and judicious use. Extreme behavior often elicits an extreme reaction. We must not “throw out the baby with the bathwater.” Regardless of the superficial appeal of the arguments that are marshaled against spanking, those who recognize that the Bible is the inspired Word of God are more concerned with biblical insight regarding the matter. Does the Bible advocate or sanction the spanking of children?

THE BIBLE’S VIEWPOINT

Several verses refer explicitly to the use of corporal punishment in the rearing of children. The longstanding quip, “Spare the rod and spoil the child,” is undoubtedly a paraphrase of Solomon’s words: “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly” (Proverbs 13:24). This motif is repeated throughout Proverbs. For example, Solomon asserted “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him” (22:15). This one statement is packed with meaning that merits deep and prolonged meditation and analysis. Most modern adolescent psychologists have not even begun to plumb its depths, let alone agree with it.

Lest someone get the idea that Solomon used the term “rod” figuratively, without intending to leave the impression that parents should actually strike their children with a rod, he clarified the target: “Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell” (23:13-14). A proper balance is obviously needed between verbal reproof/encouragement on the one hand, and the application of corporal punishment on the other, as seen in the following words: “The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. Correct your son, and he will give you rest; yes, he will give delight to your soul” (29:15,17, emp. added). The immense importance of the interplay between positive instruction, encouragement, and nurturing, in conjunction with appropriate physical punishment, cannot be overestimated nor successfully discounted.

MEANING OF “ROD”

But what did Solomon mean by “rod”? The Old Testament uses primarily three Hebrew words to refer to a wooden stick:

Maqqel refers to a tree branch that has been transformed into a riding crop (Numbers 22:27), a shepherd’s staff (1 Samuel 17:40—which Goliath called a “stave” or “stick”—vs. 43), or a weapon of war (Ezekiel 39:9—“javelin” in the NKJV). It is also used as a symbol of dominion (e.g., Jeremiah 48:17—where it occurs in synonymous parallelism with matteh), and in its natural state as a branch of a poplar, chestnut, or almond tree (Genesis 30:37; Jeremiah 1:11) [see Harris, et al., 1980, 1:524; Botterweck, et al., 1997, 8:548-550].

Matteh occurs 252 times and is used to refer to a branch, stick, stem, rod, shaft, staff, and most often a tribe (some 180 times). It can refer to a stick used to beat out cumin/grain (Isaiah 28:27), a soldier’s spear (1 Samuel 14:27), as well as the shaft of an arrow (Habakkuk 3:9,14) [Botterweck, et al., 8:241; Gesenius, 1847, pp. 466-467].

Shevet, the word used in Proverbs, refers to a staff, stick, rod, scepter, and tribe. Gesenius defined it as “a staff, stick, rod” and then showed how it is translated differently in accordance with the use to which it was put, whether for beating, striking, chastening (Isaiah 10:5,15), a shepherd’s crook (Leviticus 27:32; Psalm 34:4), a king’s scepter (Genesis 49:10; Amos 1:5,8), a tribe (Judges 20:2), a measuring rod, or a spear (2 Samuel 18:14) [p. 801; cf. Harris, et al., 2:897].

Matteh and shevet are used together in Ezekiel 19:10-14 to refer to fresh tree branches. They are used in synonymous parallelism in Isaiah 28:27 as a stick used to beat out cumin/grain: “But the black cumin is beaten out with a stick (matteh), and the cumin with a rod (shevet).” They are unquestionably synonyms. If any distinction can be made between them, it is that matteh is not used to refer to a scepter (see Harris, et al., 2:897; although Gesenius, pp. 466-467). However, both are used to refer to a stick or rod. In fact, shevet is specifically referred to as a rod used for beating a human being: “And if a man beats his servant or his maidservant with a rod…” (Exodus 21:20). As Isaacs noted: “The Heb[rew] shebhet is the ordinary word for rod or club” (1959, 4:2702; cf. McClintock and Strong, 1880, 9:57-58,401).

In addition to the verses in Proverbs that refer specifically to spanking a child, several additional verses verify that literal striking of the body with a wooden stick is envisioned. For example, “Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, but a rod is for the back of him who is devoid of understanding” (Proverbs 10:13). “A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the fool’s back” (Proverbs 26:3). Obviously, the “rod” is as literal as the “whip” and “bridle.” The Psalmist declared: “Then I will visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes” (Psalm 89:32). Though speaking figuratively, the Psalmist aligned “rod” with “stripes.” In passages where the term “rod” is used figuratively, the figurative use presupposes the literal meaning (e.g., Job 9:34; 21:9; Isaiah 10:24; 11:4; 14:29; 30:31; Lamentations 3:1; Micah 5:1).

CONCLUSIONS

In light of the linguistic data, the following conclusions are warranted:

First, the three terms are essentially synonyms with no real distinction to be discerned between them. They are as generic, ambiguous, and flexible as their English counterparts. As Orr stated: “Little distinction can be drawn between the Heb[rew] words used for ‘rod’ and ‘staff ’ ” (1959, 4:2596; also Funderburk, 1976, 5:132). The commonality that exists between them is the fact that they all refer to a stick/limb, i.e., a branch from a tree. In antiquity, scepters, spears, arrows, rods, staffs/staves were all made out of wood, i.e., tree branches (cf. Ezekiel 19:11). Hence, the distinction between them was one of purpose/function—not source. It follows that size, i.e., thickness and length, would likewise have varied. The Hebrew words themselves possess no inherent indication regarding size.

Second, the principle of spanking is clearly taught in Proverbs. This is beyond dispute. Since God would not approve of child abuse (cf. Colossians 3:21), it follows that whatever instrument is used for spanking, whether switch, yardstick, paddle, belt, razor strap, etc., should get the job done without inflicting inappropriate or unnecessary damage to the child’s body. The “switch” has much to commend it, and certainly coincides with the biblical texts on the subject. But good sense and personal judgment must be exercised in determining its size.

In his comments on the Hebrew word for “rod,” Hebrew scholar and Professor of Old Testament at Regents College, Bruce Waltke noted: “The rod was also used as an instrument for either remedial or penal punishment. …In Prov[erbs] it is the symbol of discipline, and failure to use the preventive discipline of verbal rebuke and the corrective discipline of physical punishment will end in the child’s death” (Harris, et al., 1980, 2:897, emp. added). The author of the apocryphal book, Ecclesiasticus, observed: “He who loves his son will whip him often, in order that he may rejoice at the way he turns out” (May and Metzger, 1965, p. 166).

Writing over one hundred years ago, professor W.F. Adeney offered a surprisingly current observation that has much to commend it:


The primitive rigour of the Book of Proverbs is repudiated by modern manners. Not only in domestic training, but even in criminal law, people reject the old harsh methods, and endeavor to substitute milder means of correction. No doubt there was much that was more than rough, even brutal, in the discipline of our forefathers. The relation between father and child was too often lacking in sympathy through the undue exercise of parental authority, and society generally was hardened rather than purged by pitiless forms of punishment. But now the question is whether we are not erring towards the opposite extreme in showing more tenderness to the criminal than to his victim, and failing to let our children feel the need of some painful discipline. We idolize comfort, and we are in danger of thinking pain to be worse than sin. It may be well, therefore, to consider some of the disadvantages of neglecting the old-fashioned methods of chastisement (1950, 9:258-259).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=7&article=1255

sermonindex May 30, 2013

The relation between father and child was too often lacking in sympathy through the undue exercise of parental authority, and society generally was hardened rather than purged by pitiless forms of punishment. But now the question is whether we are not erring towards the opposite extreme in showing more tenderness to the criminal than to his victim, and failing to let our children feel the need of some painful discipline. We idolize comfort, and we are in danger of thinking pain to be worse than sin. It may be well, therefore, to consider some of the disadvantages of neglecting the old-fashioned methods of chastisement

This chap would have been better putting his much education to something useful. Its frankly incredible that he begins with an issue regarding the discipline of children and end with the words "criminals". In my view that just about sums it up. Shame on such men as these!

P
proudpapa May 30, 2013

RE:// This chap would have been better putting his much education to something useful. Its frankly incredible that he begins with an issue regarding the discipline of children and end with the words "criminals". In my view that just about sums it up. Shame on such men as these! //


I think the point of Dave Miller, Ph.D.'s inclusion of W.F. Adeney's quote could be summed up by: "We idolize comfort, and we are in danger of thinking pain to be worse than sin. It may be well, therefore, to consider some of the disadvantages of neglecting the old-fashioned methods of chastisement"

Is Society shifting in its outlook of proper training methods when it comes to children ??

Are Christians shifting along with society when it comes to what they feel is the correct ways of training children ?


L
Lordoitagain May 30, 2013

THANK YOU, Proudpapa for posting this extensive Bible study on this very important subject!

We have sown to the winds of permissiveness in parenting, and we are now reaping the whirlwinds of lawlessness and crime multiplied exponentially. The foolishness that is bound up in the heart of a child will eventually turn into criminal activity if not "nipped in the bud" with the wonderful little method that God instructed involving the rod.

Those who oppose this clearly outlined Biblical instruction of corporal (painful) punishment are clearly opposing our Creator whose ways and thoughts are much higher than ours.

I thank God that my parents obeyed the Bible and inflicted painful consequences for my disobedience as a child!

sermonindex May 30, 2013

We have sown to the winds of permissiveness in parenting, and we are now reaping the whirlwinds of lawlessness and crime multiplied exponentially. The foolishness that is bound up in the heart of a child will eventually turn into criminal activity if not "nipped in the bud" with the wonderful little method that God instructed involving the rod. lordoitagain

This is a pretty ghastly view of children I have to say. I take it you are not in child care then! Have you studied social history at all? There was more murder, violence, rape, lawlessness of the gross kind 300 years ago than there is now. This is true for England, France and several other European nations. Did or do you know what this was predicated on? Injustice with a large ROD. We tend to have a somewhat sanitised view of European social history. However, it was grim beyond your imagination. Wesley knew it, as did others at that time and their response was not the rod, it was the gospel of grace. Children are not instinctive criminals. Society makes criminals for the most part. Sinners are born. I wouldn't confuse being a sinner with being a criminal. By the way thats speaking as one who was a criminal and not some Lilly Livered toff whose sinful inclinations hid behind unjust and cruel laws. I was just a straight forward thief. Neither am I a socialist or for that matter have any political views at all. I just hate injustice and its effects. Men make criminal. Sinners are born. Not the same thing at all.

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pilgrim777 May 30, 2013

amrkelly writes:

Men make criminals. Sinners are born. Not the same thing at all.

Very interesting perspective, amr.

I am curious, what man made you a criminal? Who made you a thief if it wasn't your own heart?

Is society now to blame for the criminals that populate the prisons?

If I am mistaken in thinking that you are playing the "blame shifter", please correct me.

One other question: Is God unjust when He applies the "rod of correction" to His children? His chastisement can be quite painful, but He is known to do that sort of thing to those He LOVES.

All the best,
Pilgrim

sermonindex May 30, 2013

Very interesting perspective, amr.

I am curious, what man made you a criminal? Who made you a thief if it wasn't your own heart?

Is society now to blame for the criminals that populate the prisons?

If I am mistaken in thinking that you are playing the "blame shifter", please correct me.

One other question: Is God unjust when He applies the "rod of correction" to His children? His chastisement can be quite painful, but He is known to do that sort of thing to those He LOVES pilgrim777

Criminality is more than simply being a thief. If men were not sinners in the first instance they would not steal anything. However, men are sinner and sinners experience injustice. Every one knows that men are sinners. England and France especially knew that men are sinners and precisely to remedy that condition instituted some of the greatest injustices imaginable. And no I do not attribute my own thefts to others. I comprehend them firmly as my own. As far as I know the only remedy for a thief is to learn to give. To give you have to have something to give. And no its not an interesting perspective its just a societal reality. Societies have always sought to restrain the sinner with the rod. This discussion is about children. And the issue with children is a simple one. They are not born criminals. They are born sinners and become criminals if they steal and are prosecuted for the same.

Injustice is the greatest stumbling block to most men. It is the same for children who comprehending there parents hypocrisies have to then endure their parents anger as well. Lastly I don't play games so I wouldn't pursue that argument too far. Only God Himself comprehends how to discipline men justly. Men are always to a degree unjust. However, some men are more unjust than others. To be perfectly straight with you I am going to resist any further input into this post. I could turn your hair grey with accounts of the things I have witnessed and some of the same things I experienced as a child myself. Its no mere academic theological issue for me it is personal and real. It is God who forgives and then by that means we sin no more in a particular manner. Then we are prospered by faith and obedience then we learn to give. I rather doubt that anyone is saying that the thief or the murderer is able to justify his thief's and murders. All of our sins are in the first place against God Himself. He forgives according to His rich mercy. Men forgive with difficulty unless they are Christ like or else by some other means are compassionate and understanding. Nor am I saying that the thief or the murderer should go unpunished. I am saying that it isn't necessary to physically beat a child with a rod. Despite the efforts of many brethren to prove that very point.

L
Lordoitagain May 30, 2013


There was more murder, violence, rape, lawlessness of the gross kind 300 years ago than there is now. This is true for England, France and several other European nations. Did or do you know what this was predicated on? Injustice with a large ROD. We tend to have a somewhat sanitised view of European social history. However, it was grim beyond your imagination. Wesley knew it, as did others at that time and their response was not the rod, it was the gospel of grace.

Isn't it interesting that while society was applying the rod, Wesley was seeing some of the greatest revivals to ever hit the planet? Can you possibly see the connection? When man is made aware of what pain can be like, and then made aware of the place of eternal pain, and then the remedy offered at the cross, he can properly respond with true repentance!


Children are not instinctive criminals.

Maybe they are not in Europe, but here in the USA, we have a horrible epidemic of children criminals. Recently a child murdered his parents in our town.

We got rid of the rod many decades ago, and our children are becoming criminals here.

P
pilgrim777 May 30, 2013

Criminality is more than simply being a thief. If men were not sinners in the first instance they would not steal anything.

Agreed. And, theft is covetousness, being manifested from a heart of rebellion that has no respect for others.

However, men are sinner and sinners experience injustice. Every one knows that men are sinners. England and France especially knew that men are sinners and precisely to remedy that condition instituted some of the greatest injustices imaginable.

But, what does that have to do with Christians having the mind of Christ and being led by the Spirit (who knows how to discipline), to discipline their children according to the Spirit?

And no I do not attribute my own thefts to others. I comprehend them firmly as my own. As far as I know the only remedy for a thief is to learn to give.

Well, to give, yes, but to give only of that which the thief has earned. Robin Hood gave from what he stole from others. Nothing noble or good about that.

To give you have to have something to give.

And it should be something to give which you have earned or which belongs to you in the first place.

And no its not an interesting perspective its just a societal reality. Societies have always sought to restrain the sinner with the rod.

Civil governments are raised up and allowed by God and doesn't God even chastise His children? He does not spare the "rod".

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (Romans 13:1)

This discussion is about children. And the issue with children is a simple one. They are not born criminals. They are born sinners and become criminals if they steal and are prosecuted for the same.

I thought the discussion was also about Godly correction and chastisement. Aren't children criminals if they steal even if they do not get caught? You are saying they are only criminals if they get caught?

Injustice is the greatest stumbling block to most men. It is the same for children who comprehending there parents hypocrisies have to then endure their parents anger as well.

God does not instruct a parent to chastise out of anger. God does not bear the rod against His children out of anger but out of love and we are to do the same for our children. If we love them, we will correct them the way the Holy Spirit leads us to.

Lastly I don't play games so I wouldn't pursue that argument too far. Only God Himself comprehends how to discipline men justly.

But we are talking about children, as you said. And don't you think that God can give His children, who have the Holy Spirit (and thus, the mind of Christ), wisdom in chastising their children?

Men are always to a degree unjust. However, some men are more unjust than others.

Are you talking about men that are not walking in the Spirit?

I am saying that it isn't necessary to physically beat a child with a rod. Despite the efforts of many brethren to prove that very point.

Well, it is a Biblical instruction, isn't it? How do you deal with that? And that, "rebellion is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod of discipline will remove it far from him"?

My father was a hypocrite in terms of being a Christian, but at the same time he was completely just in applying the rod to me. I did not get those two things mixed up. Everytime he applied the rod to me, I knew I deserved it and furthermore, the rod helped me to come clean and repent. It was actually a mechanism that freed me from guilt and wrongdoing.

When I look back, I don't remember pain from his chastisement, I only remember the good results that came from it.

And isn't that the purpose of chastisement. That it would yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness? (Heb 12)

It sounds like you were beaten unjustly and cruelly and I have talked with people that have had that experience and what they do is superimpose their negative experience on all parents and conclude that all parents chastise unjustly. Do you think that all parents bear the rod out of anger?

Additionally, these brothers that I have spoken with who were beaten unjustly never are able to see it from any other perspective than their own experience and I don't think you will be any different. I respect where you are coming from and with your explanation, I think I understand why. Maybe you can do the same for those you don't agree with.

Pilgrim

D
dohzman May 30, 2013

proudpapa, very good post, thank you.

sermonindex May 30, 2013

I disagree that there is any connection between knowing physical pain and comprehending the consequences of eternal destruction. The one is easy to comprehend and I cannot imagine many children who do not comprehend the reality of physical pain by any number of means. If the inference is that pain inflicted by one in authority forms a better basis for producing a natural psycho-physiological response to that which is itself fearful in remembrance of the pain, then a child may become self governed. But no child comprehends God or eternity. One might say that it is God Himself who recognises this effect in the first instance and hence why we have scriptures which describe this effect. However, this does not mean that this is in any way pleasing to God. It is a direct consequence and response to the fallen nature of the physical body, and of the heart with the growing inclination do that which is contrary to God.

This is the basis for all governments and why we are commanded to submit to them, including our parents. This also does not mean that governments are either just or righteous or that our parents are just or righteous. The basis for submission to authorities is a reality borne out of sin. In the new heavens and the new earth we will not have to experience this struggle. Hence why the remembrance of these things is taken away. Who can imagine that anyone in the new heavens and the new earth will be rebellious? The thousand year kingdom though begins and ends with a show of rebellion. The intervening period is Christ reigning with a rod of iron. All this said does not make for a justification to teach that children need to be beaten with rods in order to learn discipline or righteousness. I didn't beat my own children but they were still able to comprehend authority and the consequences of disobedience. This was largely predicated on my own admission to them that I was myself subject to the judge and the policeman. This was a literal explanation and not a fairy tale. So my own actions and willingness to apologise when I got things wrong, and my insistence that if I broke the law the policeman would hand me over to the judge, the judge to the jailor and I would have to pay for my sins, was there guarantee of my being a just parent. This included a very explanation to them that I had no authority to beat them with instruments. I also gave them the child protection telephone number from the moment they could comprehend it. In short I proved to them what the meaning of justice and righteousness means and not simple claimed its benefit and then caused them to stumble by hypocrisy.

The fact that parents have the authority to physically chastise their children is not the same as saying that a parent can actually physically beat their children with a wooden rod. However, if they do it is a matter of necessity that the child is still subject to their parents, even though they may stumble at such treatment. Let those who countenance this methodology remember this, they will have to give an account to God. It will be measured to them as they have measured to their children and others. This goes for all in authority and not just parents. This is not a recipe for lawlessness, neither does the lack of the rod on children's bodies in the USA or anywhere else produce the ill effect we have today in many places. The reality is far more complex than that and has as much to do with the failure of the churches to walk righteously and a willingness to support unrighteousness in the past. The idea that simply beating your children with wooden rods will prove them to be good and faithful citizens is a false one. History does not support such a view at all.

Please remember for many who believe in the rod, also believe that the best time to apply it is when their children are but little children. We are not talking about what is appropriate with a teenager who is led astray or worse. Nothing this side of heaven will convince me that it is necessary to beat little children with wooden rods. However I do recognise that it is a reality in many homes and I also recognise that when it is done in a none perverse manner and is become truly necessary then physical chastisement is essential, even with little children. Not wooden rods however, or belts or any instrument other than the open hand and even then not in anger. If that seems too perfect a view it is in my understanding no less purist than the insistence that little children can and should of necessity be beaten with wooden rods.

E
Elibeth May 30, 2013

Thank you Proud papa,
For standing up,and bringing forth such a much needed and timely artical,
According to the Word..
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children.

Please,..this is my thought s on this mater:

One must needs talk to a child VERY early,...teaching them the Lord' ways,..what is exceptable and what IS NOT with a very gentle
correction,...between birth and (5) yrs old. I find,if he/she has not been disaplined rightfully by then,he/she is on their way to believing that they are the one in control,....they are the boss,.....and the bigger they get, the more out of control they become,until they are bent to do as they please,and are in for trouble,and we are too...by then,too it is hard to break the rebellious
spirit by then,,which MUST be broke.

It only takes a very small switch in the early stages,...( because the bigger
they get,the biger switch it takes. ) ...it will not hurt them deep,but WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION...but before I would do this,
I would look my child in the eye,and ask very gently,.." Do you know why
you are going to get this switching ?" And then explain why ,...and then on with the switching.

But first of all,..Our relationship with The Lord,is what will help,..guide us
for if our relationship with The Lord is right,...then the fruits of the Spirit
will help in our wisdom and temperance.
Patience ,.love ,..gentleness,.....kindness,...etc,etc,...in all that is needed.

And we know,to disapline and rightful correction IS because we love
them.

Caring,
Elizabeth

sermonindex May 30, 2013

It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children. Elibeth

May I ask you sister as you put "switching" in such nice terms whether you realise that Corporal punishment is lawful in the home in all states. State laws confirm the right of parents to inflict physical punishment on their children and legal provisions against violence and abuse are not interpreted as prohibiting all corporal punishment in childrearing. In Minnesota, examination of several laws led some legal experts to conclude that corporal punishment is not permitted in that state, but according to the legislation a parent, legal guardian or caretaker may use reasonable force to restrain or correct a child (Sec. 609.379. [Cr.]) and the Minnesota Court of Appeal has overturned convictions for physical abuse involving corporal punishment.

In short no parent in the USA is prohibited by Law from exercising corporal punishment with regards to their own children. This includes children subject to loco in parentis as well as caretakers of children in many states as well.

Given that this is in fact the Law and very nearly 100 percent of US citizens, as recently as 2004 agreed with this position in the home, how can we say that a failure to discipline children by physical means is the explanation for all of USA societal ills?

P
proudpapa May 31, 2013

"Let me reason this case a little farther with you parents that fear God. If you do fear God, how dare you suffer a child above a year old to say, "I will do" what you forbid, or, "I won't do" what you bid, and to go unpunished? Why do not you stop him at once, that he may never dare to say so again? Have you no bowels, no compassion for your child? No regard for his salvation or destruction? Would you suffer him to curse or swear in your presence, and take no notice of it? Why, disobedience is as certain a way to damnation as cursing and swearing. Stop him, stop him at first, in the name of God. Do not "spare the rod, and spoil the child." If you have not the heart of a tiger, do not give up your child to his own will, that is, to the devil. Though it be pain to yourself, yet pluck your offspring out of the lion's teeth. Make them submit, that they may not perish. Break their will, that you may save their soul." - John Wesley

P
pilgrim777 May 31, 2013

Thank you Proud papa,
For standing up,and bringing forth such a much needed and timely artical,
According to the Word..
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children.

Please,..this is my thought s on this mater:

One must needs talk to a child VERY early,...teaching them the Lord' ways,..what is exceptable and what IS NOT with a very gentle
correction,...between birth and (5) yrs old. I find,if he/she has not been disaplined rightfully by then,he/she is on their way to believing that they are the one in control,....they are the boss,.....and the bigger they get, the more out of control they become,until they are bent to do as they please,and are in for trouble,and we are too...by then,too it is hard to break the rebellious
spirit by then,,which MUST be broke.

It only takes a very small switch in the early stages,...( because the bigger
they get,the biger switch it takes. ) ...it will not hurt them deep,but WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION...but before I would do this,
I would look my child in the eye,and ask very gently,.." Do you know why
you are going to get this switching ?" And then explain why ,...and then on with the switching.

But first of all,..Our relationship with The Lord,is what will help,..guide us
for if our relationship with The Lord is right,...then the fruits of the Spirit
will help in our wisdom and temperance.
Patience ,.love ,..gentleness,.....kindness,...etc,etc,...in all that is needed.

And we know,to discipline and rightful correction IS because we love
them.

Caring,
Elizabeth

Excellent post, Elibeth. And thank you to proudpapa for starting this thread.

There are many testimonies out there from people that were not disciplined and wish they were.

But Elibeth, you are so right that you must begin early with children. Now we know how smart dogs are and we begin training a dog as a newborn puppy. Well, humans are are much more intelligent and will take their cues from their parents (right or wrong) and if we are not training them early on, they are training us. Do you know what I mean?

Young children cannot be reasoned with for they do not understand your language and you should not yell at them. A little switch placed in the right place is all they need. A little pain they understand and it will save their soul. This is not theory to me. I have children (adults and teenagers).

All the best,
Pilgrim

sermonindex May 31, 2013

Its not too difficult to comprehend why there are so many flatterers in this post. Perhaps what is more difficult to attend to, is why there is such a determination to insist that children are evil and need to be beaten in order to comprehend right from wrong. It is also easy to see the contextual political advantage of quoting Wesley in the manner here done. I was waiting for it. I thought for a while that a certain lady by the name of Mrs Wesley would be quoted. It would appear her son has a sufficiency of his own. Regardless of that, if Wesley intended his words to mean what some here are implying then his preaching was in vain and none of the rebellious sons and daughters who believed in Christ through his preaching were saved. They must have been lost in their infancy. It is a mistaken conception if it is claimed that Wesley is saying beat a one year old child with a rod otherwise they are going to go to eternal destruction because they will be wilful. Religious bigotry will always find its way to the lowest point of reason because it is of itself without reason. "spare not the rod" does not mean beat one year old children with wooden sticks until you have broken them. If it does then be prepared for imprisonment, because that will be the end of the matter. Then our children will be themselves cast away to other mens houses.

Has anyone heard the saying "a rod for his own back?"

P
pilgrim777 May 31, 2013

Amr,

You have not addressed my question on why God will severely chastise His own children. For what purpose does God chastise? Do you think it is unjust for the Lord to chastise His own children?

Jer_31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

Was the Lord being too severe in Jer 44?
Jer 44:26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
Jer 44:28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs.
Jer 44:29 And this shall be a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:

The Lord allowed Himself to be provoked to anger and He took out His anger on His people. Would the world today, pass judgment on God and prosecute Him and put Him in jail?
Looks like He is more severe than a parent who is switching their child. At least the parent does not forsake her child.
What do you think of God getting angry and forsaking His inheritance (the children of Israel)?

2Ki 21:14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

2Ki 21:15 Because they have done that which was evil in my sight, and have provoked me to anger, since the day their
fathers came forth out of Egypt, even unto this day.

God scourges those He loves. What do you think of that? Don't we learn to be fathers by how the Lord "fathers" us?

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I think your comment about flattery is extreme as I would also thank you if you posted something that blesses me. Be sure that you are not vilifying individuals rather than staying on topic.

P
proudpapa May 31, 2013

The hand is not the rod, Gods word is specific, He never tell parents to hit their children with their hands, He always speaks of the rod (a switch)

Michael Pearl "train up a child" p.50 says:

"Instuments of love
Make it a point never to use your hand for spanking. Exceptions should be highly justified. It is usually the impatient,personally offended parent whose hand continually darts out like a snake. The parent, too busy to take the time needed for training, blurts out, "Just get off my back, leave me alone, stop bothering me. "(The hand-swatting is a release of the parents own frustration)
Furthermore, where the child is concerned, hands are for loving, not martial arts. A hand on a diapered bottom is useless as a spanking, but it is effective in causing permanent damage to the spine. There is no surface pain to the child thus whipped. Any pain would be deep inside, similar to a fall or a car wreck. Any spanking, to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain. It is most effective to strike a light rod against bare skin, where nerves are located at the surface. A surface sting will cause sufficient pain with no injury or bruising..."

P
pilgrim777 May 31, 2013

That's a great book. I'm glad I found it as a young father.

"Parenting is not for the faint of heart". Michael Pearl

"Determine what kind of person you want your child to be when they grow up and you become that person, first". Michael Pearl.

"Parenting is 5% training the child and 95% training the parent". Michael Pearl

He is right about that. Many of us did not have godly examples of parenting and a child is like a blank program. Training them should be somewhat easy, but you must train yourself first to be consistent and diligent, firm and loving. Training up your children will go much better if you are consistent and not wishy-washy and if you stay vitally connected to Jesus.

L
Lordoitagain May 31, 2013


The fact that parents have the authority to physically chastise their children is not the same as saying that a parent can actually physically beat their children with a wooden rod. However, if they do it is a matter of necessity that the child is still subject to their parents, even though they may stumble at such treatment. Let those who countenance this methodology remember this, they will have to give an account to God. It will be measured to them as they have measured to their children and others.


Nothing this side of heaven will convince me that it is necessary to beat little children with wooden rods. However I do recognise that it is a reality in many homes and I also recognise that when it is done in a none perverse manner and is become truly necessary then physical chastisement is essential, even with little children. Not wooden rods however, or belts or any instrument other than the open hand and even then not in anger. If that seems too perfect a view it is in my understanding no less purist than the insistence that little children can and should of necessity be beaten with wooden rods.

Mr. Arm, when I read statements of yours like this, it makes it obvious to me that you do not believe these verses from God's Holy word: Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

It is as plain as can be written in the English language and very easy to understand that you are ranting and raving against God's Holy word.

If that is not the case, can you please tell us how we are to obey these verses and not beat a child with a rod??? Are you trying to redefine beat, or redefine rod, or are you just advocating that we DISOBEY what God has here clearly unmistakeably commanded?

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