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Late Entry

sermonindex Jun 2, 2013

Andrew,
I cannot understand,how a person of your studying...reading,..to gain knowledge...(I can tell that by your writings) cannot understand this ,...one of the most plain-spoken subjects / truths of the Word.And to throw His
WAY / TRUTH / COUNSEL / WORDS to the ground,and KEEP your
words,...Do you know the cost in that ?...Elevating your word above
His Word / Counsel ?

2:Tim.3:16 ,.."ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable
for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness,.."...

I ask you again,' Have you really considered the cost to ANYONE who
decides to throw out some of the Words in the Bible ?'
Well ! ..I know this is hard but,.....We lose something of great value,...our credibility.

1Sam.3:19,..( Samual,.. great and humbled man unto God,)"And Samual grew,and The Lord was with him,and he did let none of His Words fall to the ground."

Mt.18:3,..(Jesus speaking), "Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,
and become as little children,ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

A 'little' child is humble / bendable :

* real example of a true child of God: Mt.5:3-12,...'the beatitudes'

* Jn.3:12,...' But as many as recieve Him,to them gave He power
TO BECOME the CHILDREN of God.( He gives us Grace : "The Devine
enfflence upon our heart and it 's reflection in the Life.)Power..working through the Holy Spirit,...drawing us to His will.

* Lk.12:47-48,..' And that servant,..(which we really are a child,servant, (serveing the Lord) son's,etc,..who knows the will of the Father )...who knew his Lord's will and doeth it not,prepareth not himself,neither did His will,"shall be beaten "...? with many stripes."
Question: you mean,The Father would acually BEAT us?...where there are marks on our skin ?

Andrew,What these brethren patiently and lovingly were trying to help you to see,...Why would you scoff at ? And the Denny Kenaston artical,that Proud Papa brought forth,.....I believe was as good and Godly way,as I have ever heard,...you scoffed at.
I do believe this man studied the Words of this Godly instruction on
raising Godly children,and The Spirit of God taught this man the most perfect way,...not abuse but through patience,love,much work care and time,..to bring up his children in the way that they should go,..
And yet you scoofed at it.To me there is something to be feared here.,...because when we scoff at something The Lord has taught,..according to His Word and Spirit,..Then really ,..aren't we really scoofing at The Lord' work ?

And there is another important factor here,...children need not only the
guidance,correction, trained,switched when needed,but to learn the joy of work. Which is taboo,,,a crime, for them to labor these days.

As for 'the times that we live in'..?"The Lord is the same yesterday,today
and forever,...He changes not.His Word shall never pass away.

It is most unfortunate if a child does not have more than a near nothing to do,...where they can be tired when night comes,..and need their rest, and not be a late sleeper In the day as some,...getting into things,at night like the gangs etc...not just leting their children go to waste....having loving,patience,parents that care...that take the time,care and hard work,to raise,.teach,..correct,.with the rod when it is neccasary,....according to the Word.

And too,you mentioned the hand vs the switch,..
Did you not realize,..Hitting the child with the hand,jar's the child,it could
Be so light,as to do nothing,or hitting them with the hand could be so hard
That it could break their bones.where a little keen switch could apply topical
switch marks,and the hurt that is needed,and not damage them deep .
They will learn to fear the....ever so small keen switch,at an early age.

And finally,

Eph.5:1,..(Paul teaching)..'Be ye followers of God,as dear children.'
* who is God ?But He who speaketh,He is the Spirit / Word
...also the inspired Word because it comes from Him.

It is with great care,that I write this to you,...as well as I know all the other
encouragements to you were.
Lovingly always,
elizabeth


Well that was somewhat of a late entry.

Sorry I missed the encouragements. But I see the clean up job. Still this won't go away you have been warned.

P
proudpapa Jun 2, 2013

////Still this won't go away you have been warned.////

could you please articulate clearly what you are implying by this seemingly threatning statement.

L
Lysa Jun 2, 2013

proudpapa wrote:
///They seem to have a vested interest in beating and bruising toddlers and children.///

why must we speak evil like this about believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life ?

I’ve been at work all day but forgive me I didn’t feel that I was speaking evil of anyone, I’m sorry you misconstrued what I was saying. Let’s go about this logically...

1. Are you or are you not defending that Christians have a Biblical right to beat/bruise their toddlers and children?

2. Are you or are you not defending the right that if Christians do in fact beat their toddler/children with the rod and bruises are left behind that Biblically this is acceptable?

If you said yes to 1, 2 or then please provide how was I speaking evil about "believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life??" Thank you.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2013

Could you please articulate clearly what you are implying by this seemingly threatening statement.

Yes of course brother I can. The single most difficult problem we have as believers with regards to our children may seem to us as if it is their conduct from the outset which matters. And whilst this is a concern, obviously, it is just one concern which faces us. The other concern is how we express what we believe regarding the issue of disciplining our children, and how that will be used against us in the future. What we publish, what we put into writing and of course what we do ourselves. It is no good me pretending that I don't already understand that when we openly state that we set about to break the will of our children by using our children's own involuntary inclinations as a means, (called psychological entrapment), nor that this does not already carry with it a risk. So the warning is a simple one, and I thought I had already expressed it clearly, we need to be wise in what we say and do.

What I didn't realise until this last few days was just how even a believer's concerns would be viewed as a threat and seen as a throwing the word of God to the ground. This problem does not exist in England, save for on a very small scale, but it may be a huge issue in the USA. I am learning all the time, mostly because I say things which are a provocation and from that I can extrapolate an understanding of the issues involved. Its not pleasant and I am not heartless. I could explain this in some detail but I can see that as long as some believers insists that God Himself requires them to break their children and then go on to provide examples which include acknowledging that the child itself cannot help but act in a certain way, yet we nevertheless use that against them, we are going to have problems in the end. These things attend to the detail of the way legislation is framed and as most of the new child protection legislation is based on Social Policy and Health Policy advisement (Psychological & Physical) along side existing legal frameworks, the outcome is inevitable. Its a guaranteed clash in the end.

I spoke with my wife Helen this evening about this subject and she reminded me that when our children were little I actually took the complete opposite position with them. She tells me that I continuously taught them to recognise injustice. She then reminded me of my son James who was treated badly by a teacher at private school and how he dealt with it. Similarly how my daughter Sarah would not be part of the "in crowd" because she recognised the injustice of excluding the other children. She was hated for this and for the first time in her life she experienced the cost of preferring the least of the children in favour of the greatest. I know that this may seem irrelevant but it is how I am led of the Lord and how I have taught my children to live. The irrelevance may simply be in a seeming connection between my use of the term injustice and the issue of using a switch to discipline children.

However, the connection is not even the switch in reality, it is the nature of the world we live in and whether we desire to exercise wisdom or not. Again despite what has been said, especially the post by Elizabeth, which is more clear than any other post in condemning my position, the issue may in the end come down to whether we really are able to recognise the basis for future problems of persecution. For me personally the problem is even worse than this because I could't care less about persecution I know how to stand and I know how to be hidden and when to spring into the open. The problem for me will come when I am myself faced with the situation in which I either support or stand against a believer who has wilfully set about to break their children and have in the end done them great harm, so that this harm can be seen measured and comprehended in actions of self harm and the harm of others. We can play semantics all day. But in the end I am completely against the idea of breaking children. I simply cannot see it scripturally and if I thought that God truly required it of me or any man, I would have to seek the Lord's face and set aside everything, and in the end that may even have to be the Lord Himself. If that seems too strong brother then so be it. I care nothing for my so-called reputation one way or another. But I could not serve God easily if I knew that He required me to wilfully break children in order to require them to an unquestioning obedience to me a mere man. If my children respect me and are willing to obey me when they are little children it is because as little children they are in any event willing. As they grow they need to be able to work out there own understanding and either continue in obedience or else suffer in disobedience. But to break then as a mechanism to avoid reality, that I cannot accept.

You should not be under any illusion about how strong this issue is going to become. I am not, and it makes me tremble with fear. I have demonstrated many times here on SI that I put no store by way of Sociology, Psychology or the other Humanity subjects. Neither am I blind to their lies and effects. I simply cannot escape from the conviction that using a switch on children on occasions or the hand, or for that matter even a strap, would amount to very little if that was in fact truly necessary for their sakes. But to set about to break the will of a child as a way of avoiding future parental efforts, by using switches systematically and continuously until a child has been broken in their will……that completely appalls me if I am really honest. It doesn't mean that I hate anyone or that I doubt their integrity or sincerity, it simply goes beyond my ability to ignore it. So there you have it brother.

P
proudpapa Jun 2, 2013

Hi amrkelly, I am working on my response to lysa, but read your response to my question, thank you

It is sometimes easy to jump to wrong conclusions as I almost was before your response.

I am not sure what you where implying by "clean up job", But nothing I personaly wrote was any attempt to a clean up job,(I am not sure if that was what U where implying to or not) If it where I can explain how it was not a clean up job.

P
proudpapa Jun 2, 2013

///What I didn't realise until this last few days was just how even a believer's concerns would be viewed as a threat and seen as a throwing the word of God to the ground. This problem does not exist in England,///

England is more secular and brainwashed in darwin than the US is, and this secular brainwashing even effects Christians.

I agree that political christianity is not the gospel (even hinders the Gospel) but it does offer some protection in our country as of right now, to Kingdom Christians.
I do not fear a super soon persecution to those whom hold and express my views on this subject because as the last thread testifyes, to do so would be to persecute the masses in our country.

But I agree that evil is at work in trying to change the minds in the general populace, from that which was deemed even by secular society as proper parenting 50 years ago is now heavely being pressed by the entertainment media as abuse.(in which is a strategy of Satan to persecute Gods people)

Another thought, even Corporal punishment is still applied in our local school systems.
my mom is in public school administration and has legaly by our states laws applied the procedure fairly recently.

When I was in jr high in the mid 90s many of the teachers had paddles, some with holes in them, one of the coaches had a large leather strap attached with a handle, when spanked by him he would make a deal with the student, that when they where spanked by him, if he did not lift them off of their feet, they could spank him, He never recieved a spanking.)

I used to date the daughter of the head DHS adminstrator over several counties, of what I remember of discussing this type of issue with him, he would be in total agreement with me.

If we are in agreement with the world on this subject than we are probably on the wrong side of the issue.

If we are confused on rather we would help prosecute and trully persecute fellow lovers of Christ, whom love their families more than life, on any issue than we proably need to reexamine or position.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2013

You simply don't comprehend anything brother save for your fixation on a semantic of corporal discipline expressed in terms which have nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have shared.

Well it is as it is. I am finished.

P
proudpapa Jun 2, 2013

Hi amrkelly,

no contention at this time on my part.

I can appreciate your desire to protect children, I will probably if I have time respond to some more of your statements.

P
proudpapa Jun 2, 2013

Hi, lysa

Lysa asked ///1. Are you or are you not defending that Christians have a Biblical right to beat/bruise their toddlers and children?
2. Are you or are you not defending the right that if Christians do in fact beat their toddler/children with the rod and bruises are left behind that Biblically this is acceptable? ///

I am opposed to abuse!

when we hear the word "beat" we get the impression of abuse ,which I am opposed to.

You have wrongfully supposed that because In the 'fosterparent jailed' thread where I mentioned that a bruise is not a sign of abuse, but a scar is, that somehow is evidence that I am defending beating children.

The point I was trying to make was that in that particular case of which, I found no evidence given to the severity of the bruising, which I personally would asume was because the bruising was not severe.

To me, I would not deem a bruise in and of itsself as abuse! and I gave some reasons of why in that post.

At any given time, I can look myself over and I will have a bruise, different people bruise at different degrees. You probably have a bruise some where on your body right now, if not, than either you are not an easy bruiser or you have a very nonactive life.

your children neither learned to walk nor ride a bike nor play a sport with out bruising.(that is a Fact!)
and if they did indeed bruise (and they did!) than by your own judgment you are guilty of neglect!

In that post I made a clear statement that a scar is a sign of abuse, and I made the clear understanding that this both included outward scars as well as inward scars.

Let me make the point that Children that have (extensive) bruising outwardly have been inwardly scared !

that would be abuse!

but I would not deem a light bruise on a butt or leg in and of its self as a sign of abuse, (and from the reading of my states laws I do not believe they would either!)
I am sure that I had many bruises from spankings as a child, I was not physically abused by any means , any feelings that I was is self pity (a wicked and destructive form of pride that is fuelling the hostility to biblical chastisement )

If someone would have seen a bruise on me, from a spanking when I was a child and felt they where doing the will of God by taking me from my Loving parents and have me put in an emotionally scaring foster system, those people rather aware of it or not would have been emotionally scaring and seperating me from the saftey of my parents and placing me in the danger of real abuse such as sexual abuse.
and taking me from a good road and placing me on a bumpy road, Those people would have been Doing the (WILL OF SATAN!)(( no argument on that reality!)) (That would not have been the will of the GOD of Scripture, for them to do that!

Lysa wrote : ///If you said yes to 1, 2 or then please provide how was I speaking evil about "believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life??" Thank you///

lysa you had wrote ////They seem to have a vested interest in beating and bruising toddlers and children.////

you where speaking of several of Gods children that had responded in that thread

Yes that was an evil statement!

I do not beat nor bruise my children neither physicaly nor emotionaly nor do the other Christians that posted in that thread.


Edit: sermon index propagrates an excelant video sermon on this topic, It would sum up my view

watch it and tell me if you deem it as propagating abuse.

video sermon, the rod is love: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2905

L
Lysa Jun 3, 2013

proudpapa, you really are proud. I will reiterate what amrkelly said to you because it is my response as well since you danced around my questions.....

You simply don't comprehend anything brother save for your fixation on a semantic of corporal discipline expressed in terms which have nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have shared. ~ amrkelly

P
proudpapa Jun 3, 2013

"The church in America is going to suffer so terribly and we laugh now but they will come after us.
They will come after our children.They will close the net around us while we are while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad, while we are arguing over so many little things and mesmerized by so many trinkets. The net even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear. You will be isolated from society as is already happened.
Anyone who tries to run for office who actually believes the Bible will be considered a lunatic until finally we are silenced.We will be called things that we are not and persecuted not for being followers of Christ but for being radical fundamentalists who do not know the true way of Christ which of course is “love and tolerance”.
You’ll go down as the greatest bigots and haters of mankind in history
They’ve already come after your children and for most of you, they got them.
They got them through the public schools and indoctrination in the university and you wonder why your children come out not serving the Lord. It’s because you fed them right into the devil’s mouth. So little by little the net is closing around and then it’s not little by little.
Look how fast things are going downhill in just a matter of weeks, but at the same time, know this, persecution has always been for evil but God always means it for good and is it not better to suffer in this life to have an extra weight of glory in heaven.
You must settle this in your mind, this is the one thing I want to say over and over:

Do not believe...down through history, you have a wrong idea of martyrdom and persecution
You think that these men were persecuted and martyred for their sincere faith in Jesus Christ.
That was the real reason but no one heard that publiclyThey were martyred and they were persecuted as enemies of the state as child molesters, as bigots, as narrow-minded, stupid people who had fallen for a ruse and can contribute nothing to society.

Your suffering will not be noble,so your mind must be filled with the Word of God when all people persecute you and turn on you and if the spirit of God and common grace pulls back
and you see even your children and your grandchildren tossing in the lot that you should die.
This is no game.You want revival and awakening. but know this,for the most part great awakenings have come only preceding great national catastrophes of the persecution of the church.I believe God is bringing a great awakening, but I believe he is raising up young men who are strong in trust in the providence of God to be able to wade through the hell that’s going to break loose on us. And it will be on us before we even recognize it unless, unless in God’s providence, He is not done, He is not done. And note, this is not silly talk, apart from great awakening, these things are going to come upon you. Be ready to lose your homes, your cars, everything." - Paul Washer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hakL0Je5XCw

R
romanchog Jun 3, 2013

I stayed out (except for one post in the initial thread) of the discussion over several threads on the issue of corporal punishment because I can see valid points on both sides.

First, it must be understood that all children are not the same and all children do not need the same kind of punishment do thy receive it the same way. I have 9 children. I have some children who have never needed a spanking to be corrected. One would start crying if I just looked at the child harshly because of some wrong the child had committed. Spanking for those children was totally unnecessary.

I have others who could not be corrected without a spanking. Sometimes rather harsh punishment was necessary because of the rebelliousness in their heart. I will say, the spanking did not really help the heart. Although it changed the behavior, inwardly the rebelliousness remained and became bitterness.

Does this mean that the Bible is wrong? It means that we follow a new law. We no longer follow the law, but we are to be led by the Spirit. We follow the new "law of the Spirit" (Rom 8) and we should be led by the Spirit in this matter as in ALL other matters. God created these children, He knows their heart and He knows the form of discipline that each child needs to be guided in the right path. We should submit to prayer what God the Father would have us do to discipline each child.

Note also that the key word is discipline, not spanking. Discipline involves more than spanking; it means to create disciples.

Another great concern that I have is the complete lack of understanding on this forum of what is called the "child protection system" in the US. Contrary to what has been said, there is almost a zero tolerance for physical punishment. While it is true that most state laws SAY that corporal punishment is not in itself abuse, this is not what is seen in practice. If any bruises are seen on a child, they are most likely going to remove the child from the home first and you will be answering questions before a judge, who likely has NO tolerance for Christians or spankings and will not care about your religious beliefs. You will not get your child back until you go through their hoops, which includes attending parenting classes, therapy, etc. If the doctor sees a bruise, you better have an explanation, or the same thing will happen.

How do I know this? Two ways: I have been there. I was accused falsely, trumped up because I refused to bow to the mighty doctors and when social workers saw we had 9 kids, home schooled, they went crazy (my lawyer's words) and said there must be something going on in this family. All these things were said to us in court and by everyone who knows of the system. We were later told that the worst thing we said was that we were Christians, because there is an intense prejudice in these courtrooms for Christians, because they are perceived as abusers. I saw many other parents stuck in court for ridiculous things as well. While I did not get into court on the issue of spanking, it was immediately stressed on us not to use corporal punishment.

Second, while I was in law school I studied this a lot. The practical side of the system does not follow the written law. Social workers have almost unbridled authority to remove children for anything THEY consider to be abuse. They do not have to do much to justify the removal, and they sometimes lie by saying that they have tried other less drastic means before removing the child. (That is what the law requires them to do in Florida, but they did not do it in my case.) I am sure that you all have heard of ridiculous reasons for removing children. Whatever you have heard on the news is only the tip of the iceberg. Some social workers are reasonable, some are lax, and some are radical. It all depends on who you get knocking at your door. God forbid you are poor and a social worker comes knocking, because you will be considered to be negletful for not having enough food, etc. in the home. If they are part of child protective services, they will not offer to help you, they will simply take your kids away and they will see you in court. You won't get your kids back until you can rectify your poverty, keep a steady job, but still somehow attend court hearings sometimes several times a week, at least several times a month, attend therapy, etc. It is a very sad situation. It is a mission field here in our own nation.

Once you get to court, the social worker is assumed to be correct by the judge, and you have to prove her/him wrong in court. No one says this outright, but it is the practical truth.

Please be aware of this. I would hate to see anyone's kids removed and placed in foster care because they assume the laws protect them and after all, "I am not doing anything wrong." This kind of mentality is what got me and my husband in trouble. Do not risk the welfare of your children over your principles on spanking, if it comes to that.

Said in love and concern and I hope it is received in that way.

L
Lordoitagain Jun 3, 2013

Do not risk the welfare of your children over your principles on spanking, if it comes to that. - romanchog

Roman, this is a sad piece of conclusive advice to the dilemma that you have described. It reminds me of another group of people who said:

Num 14:3 And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?


When we give up ANY Biblical principles so as not to "risk" the welfare of our children ... we are basically saying that we don't trust the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ... the omnipotent Creator of the universe.

In the above cited case, ONLY TWO men out of the whole generation acted on FAITH in Biblical principles, and went to the promises of God.

What if Daniel had said: "Do not risk the welfare of your life over your principles of eating"?

What if Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had said: "Do not risk the welfare of your life over your principles of bowing"?

What if Esther ... what if David ... what if Jeremiah ...

the list goes on.

We either stand in faith or join the multitudes of cowards who according to Rev. 21:8 cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.

P
proudpapa Jun 3, 2013

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

R
rbanks Jun 3, 2013

Roman, thanks for an excellent post!!

I saw the heart of what you were saying as well as the many posts of Andrew.

I was just wondering -is Proverbs and the old testament the only books in the bible that some on here read concerning discipline of children.

Here is something to think about in the Pulpit Commentary:

Chasten thy son while there is hope; or. seeing that there is hope. Being still young and impressionable, and not confirmed in bad habits, he may be reformed by judicious chastisement. The same expression occurs in Job_11:18 Jer_31:16. "For so he shall be well hoped of" (euelpiv ), Septuagint. (comp. Pro_23:13) And let not thy soul spare for his crying. "It is better," says a German apothegm, "that the child weep than the father." But the rendering of the Authorized Version is not well established, and this second clause is intended to inculcate moderation in punishment. Vulgate, Ad interfectionem autem ejus ne ponas animam tuam; Revised Version. Set not thine heart on his destruction. Chastise him duty and sufficiently, but not so heavily as to occasion his death, which a father had no right to do.

The Law enjoined the parents who had an incorrigibly bad son to bring him before the judge or the eiders, who alone had the power of life and death, and might in certain cases order the offender to be stoned. (Deu_21:18, etc.)

Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
Ye fathers, do not irritate your children, lest they be disheartened. (Eph_6:4) Ereqizw ("irritate" or "provoke") St. Paul uses once besides, (2Co_9:2) in a good sense. It implies a use of parental authority which, by continual exactions and complaints, teaches the child to look on the father as his enemy rather than his friend. The synonymous parorgizw ofw (Eph_6:4, found here in many copies, is, more definitely "to rouse to anger." Aqume) (only here in the New Testament) means "to lose heart," to have the confidence and high spirit of youth broken; "fractus animus pestis juventutis" (Bengel). In place of this treatment, "the discipline and admonition of the Lord" are recommended in Eph_6:4.
The duties of fathers.
"Fathers, provoke not your children, lest they be discouraged.
I THE DUTY OR PARENTS. It is here exhibited on its negative side. They are not to abuse their authority over their children by too great severity either in words or deeds. Some parents spoil their children by indulgence; others, by unwise severities. Bitter words are used, unreasonable commands are given, immoderate correction is administered. Parents are to behave lovingly to their children, even while maintaining their just authority over them.
II THE DANGER OF NEEDLESS HARSHNESS. "Lest they be discouraged." They may lose heart; their spirit may be broken; they may become morose, sullen, and reckless. Thus they may be turned aside from the service of God, lose the capacity to do great things, become pusillanimous, and eventually become a sad disappointment to their parents. T. C.

Christianity recommended moderation in punishment. (see Eph_6:4 Col_3:21) Septuagint, "Be not excited in the mind to despiteful treatment (eiv ubrin );" i.e. be not led away by passion to unseemly acts or words, but reprove with gentleness, while you are firm and uncompromising in denouncing evil. This is much the same advice as that given by the apostle in the passages just cited.

Family Bible Notes
Colossians 3:21Provoke not your children; by unkindly and improperly finding fault with them, being difficult to please, or failing to commend and encourage them when they do well. Lest they be discouraged; despair of being able to please you, and so become broken in spirit and reckless in regard to your wishes. A most important admonition to all parents who would retain their influence over their children.


Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.


Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath - Avoid all severity; this will hurt your own souls, and do them no good; on the contrary, if punished with severity or cruelty, they will be only hardened and made desperate in their sins. Cruel parents generally have bad children. He who corrects his children according to God and reason will feel every blow on his own heart more sensibly than his child feels it on his body. Parents are called to correct; not to punish, their children. Those who punish them do it from a principle of revenge; those who correct them do it from a principle of affectionate concern.
Bring them up, etc - Εκτρεφετε αυτα εν παιδειακαι νουθεσια Κυριου literally, Nourish them in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. The mind is to be nourished with wholesome discipline and instruction, as the body is with proper food. Παιδεια , discipline, may refer to all that knowledge which is proper for children, including elementary principles and rules for behavior, etc. Νουθεσια , instruction, may imply whatever is necessary to form the mind; to touch, regulate, and purify the passions; and necessarily includes the whole of religion. Both these should be administered in the Lord - according to his will and word, and in reference to his eternal glory. All the important lessons and doctrines being derived from his revelation, therefore they are called the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

If you will notice in the new testament the teaching concerning children is more concerned with not provoking them to wrath but to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. It talks more to the Father about gentleness to children and encouraging children.

Maybe the Lord was trying to get the Father's attention concerning the abuse of reading to much into the wisdom of Solomon.

Maybe we need to get out from under the Law and into the new covenant. Lets not think that just because we are so much bigger and stronger that we must beat them into submission. They need our love and we need their love. They need our heart and we need their heart. We need to do everything that we can to stay connected to our children in a relationship to influence them for the Lord Jesus Christ.

We may be able to force our children after much beating to comply to some things, but if we have lost their love and respect for us then we have failed to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Blessings to all!

L
Lordoitagain Jun 3, 2013

rbanks, please look at Adam Clarke's commentary on this verse:

Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.


Pro 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son - That is, if he hated him, he could not do him a greater disservice than not to correct him when his obstinacy or disobedience requires it. We have met with this subject already, and it is a favourite with Solomon. See Psa_34:10 (note) and Psa_37:3 (note).
The Rev. Mr. Holden makes some sensible observations on this passage: “By the neglect of early correction the desires (passions) obtain ascendancy; the temper becomes irascible, peevish, querulous. Pride is nourished, humility destroyed, and by the habit of indulgence the mind is incapacitated to bear with firmness and equanimity the cares and sorrows, the checks and disappointments, which flesh is heir to.”

The issue that seems to be coming back over and over in this discussion is the well known fact that mis-use of the rod is bad.

The main concern of the discussion is the fact that the proper use of the rod is being equated to child abuse and SHOULD NOT be. As Clarke points out, there are times in the lives of some children "when his obstinacy or disobedience requires it". To withhold physical pain inflicted from an instrument is a damaging and hateful act that many cowardly parents are putting their children through because of our society's swing in the direction of chaos.

sermonindex Jun 3, 2013

The main concern of the discussion is the fact that the proper use of the rod is being equated to child abuse and SHOULD NOT be. As Clarke points out, there are times in the lives of some children "when his obstinacy or disobedience requires it". To withhold physical pain inflicted from an instrument is a damaging and hateful act that many cowardly parents are putting their children through because of our society's swing in the direction of chaos. lordoitagain

I think you and I have been posting in parallel universes.

P
proudpapa Jun 4, 2013

///We may be able to force our children after much beating to comply to some things, but if we have lost their love and respect for us then we have failed to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.///

Who is advocating much beating ??

Not even one post is advocating much beating! To suggest so, is a LIE! a false accusation toward Gods Children.

Do you believe Paul Washer Beats his children ??

Do you believe Keith Daniels Beats his children ??

Do you believe Denny Kenaston used to beat his children ??

If not, than do not try to confuse what we are discussing with 'much beating'!

And if you do believe that they are promoting beating children, than you need to take that up with SI ministries for promoting their material!

P
proudpapa Jun 4, 2013

Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture ("Paideia") and admonition of the Lord.

RE: RB wrote/// If you will notice in the new testament the teaching concerning children is more concerned with not provoking them to wrath but to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. It talks more to the Father about gentleness to children and encouraging children.///


the word nurture in EPH 6:4 as cited is actually the greek word : "Paideia" which is the same greek word as chastening and chastisement found in Hebrews 12

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening ( "Paideia" )of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

If ye endure chastening,( "Paideia" ) God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth ,( "Paideia" )not? ,8 But if ye be without chastisement ,( "Paideia" ), whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons

Now no chastening ( "Paideia" )for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

Strong's
Definition
the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body
whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, esp. by correcting mistakes and curbing passions. instruction which aims at increasing virtue
chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment)

Your attempt of trying to divide Gods word on child training is without fondation.

Here is what Ray Stedman another preacher that is presented on SI has to say concerning this exact subject.

/EPH 6:4
It has been pointed out that this word translated Fathers could well be translated Parents because it includes both the father and the mother. It is also true that the emphasis is laid largely upon the father, for it is his responsibility as to what the children become. That is sobering, is it not, fathers? But it is true. Mothers may enforce policy but it is the father's task to set it, and to see that his children are raised properly. There is nothing that is more dishonoring to the spirit of Christianity than the attitude adopted by many fathers: "It is my job to make the living; her job is to raise the children." Not in the Word of God! In the Bible, the ultimate responsibility for what a home becomes is the father's. So the word is addressed to fathers: "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."

That is the way a father subjects himself to his children -- by deliberately avoiding the things which make a child rebel. "Proverbsoke them not to anger." The word for anger here is not the common word which describes irritation or temporary upset, for obviously in any home even proper discipline can sometimes make a child angry. Children are not mature, they do not always react as they ought, and even necessary discipline will make a child angry. This word is not saying anything against that. The word used here means "anger which results in a rebellion." It is the word from which we get our English word paroxysm. "Fathers, do not provoke your children to the place where they completely lose control and break out against authority." That is the word to the parents. What causes this?

There are two things which cause rebellion in children, two things which provoke a child ultimately to rebel against his parents: Indulgence and harshness. These two things are the negative of the two things he instructs the father to do: "Bring them up in the discipline and the instruction (or the exhortation) of the Lord." The opposites of these are indulgence and harshness. Those are the things which provoke a child to wrath.

During the last century the father was often a tyrant in his family. Children had to toe the mark and often had very little contact with their parents in a loving relationship. Consequently there was a breaking out against this. In our day it is the other way around. We have swung to the extreme of indulgence. We give our children everything and let them have their own way, let them raise themselves.

But notice that the word says, "Fathers...bring your children up." Do not let them bring you up. Once, in a church in which I was speaking, I saw that the subject of the young people's meeting in the evening was "What's Wrong With Our Parents?" That indicated the difficulty those children were having in raising their parents. But the word is not, "Children, bring up your parents," but, "Parents, bring up your children," and do so by avoiding harshness and indulgence, for either one will produce the same results -- rebellion and an outbreak of violence.

Lack of discipline will make a child insecure, miserable, and self-centered. That is what we call "a spoiled child" -- one who grows up to expect to have his way in everything and who rides rough-shod over the feelings of everyone else. This is created, in our day, by a spirit of indulgence on the part of parents who allow their children to make decisions which no child is capable of making. Parents must learn that they need to make decisions for their child for quite a while in his life, and only gradually help him to learn to make those decisions as he is able to do so. In the early years of childhood parents must make almost all the decisions. One of the terribly tragic things about life today is the degree to which many parents let children make decisions they are totally incapable of making.

I was in a home not long ago with a Christian father and his little three-year-old daughter. The little girl was watching the television set. She had turned on a murder mystery, or something similarly unsavory. The father saw what she was watching and, whether it was because I was there or not, something made him feel that this was an improper diet for his child. He stood at the set, and said to her, "Now, dear, you don't want to watch this, do you?" She nodded her head, "Sure!" He said, "But I don't think this is good for you. Don't you think you'd better turn it off?" "No." "Well," he said, "you ought to turn it off. This is not the kind of thing you should watch." But she shook her head again indicating she wanted to watch it. He stood there for three or four minutes, pleading with her, and, since she would not give her consent, he finally let her watch the program.

A three-year-old child is totally incapable of making that kind of moral decision. Though it need not have been made with harshness, the decision should have been made with firmness that the child was not to watch that program. It was no wonder that I observed that the child was a bundle of frustrations, striking out against everyone, for she had no security. A lack of proper discipline, more than anything else, will create insecurity in a child. The child without discipline feels unwanted and terribly unhappy. The limits which parents set for their children are like walls. I know that walls can sometimes be prisons, frustrating us, but that is usually the extreme. Walls are much more frequently beneficial to us, and we often long for them because they are symbols of safety. Who does not feel more secure at home at night because of the walls which are there. Disciplinary limits are like that to a child.

Some time ago, the Saturday Evening Post had a story of a stepfather who was trying to win the acceptance and approval of his new stepson by indulging him, buying him everything he wanted. But he was getting nowhere. Finally, they went out on a hike together and came to a place where a waterfall came down over a cliff and spread out in a big pool at its foot. Suddenly the father noticed the son's blue cap floating in the middle of the pool. Without hesitation he dived in and tried to find the boy. He made several dives, and at last, unavailing, he flung himself exhausted on the bank. Just then he heard a noise and there was the boy standing behind a tree. He said to him, "Did you throw your cap in the pool?" The boy said, "Yes, I did." The father said, "What did you do that for?" The boy answered, "I wanted to see what would happen." The stepfather said, "Well, you're going to find out right now," and he spanked him as few boys have ever been spanked. On the way home in the car, he suddenly found hot little fingers gripping his hand, and choked voice saying,

(((("I'm sorry, I'm awful sorry, but I didn't know whether you really liked me, because you never spanked me like the other children's fathers do."))))

It is an imperative necessity that children find discipline, for it is the mark of love. As the apostle tells us in Hebrews no father ever had a son but that he chastened him because he loved him. God's chastening is that to us, a sign of love. It is the same to a child./

you can read the entire excelant artical at: http://www.raystedman.org/new-testament/ephesians/parents-and-children


sermonindex Jun 4, 2013

Who is advocating much beating ??

Not even one post is advocating much beating! To suggest so, is a LIE! a false accusation toward Gods Children. proudpapa


"I want to say this also: We use this at our house. We use it often at our house. It gets used more on the younger ones than the older ones. But we use it often at our house, and my children love me." "

The Godly Home" a video preaching session by a brother speaking about his own home.

The word i presume you really object to is the word beating. That objection is founded on a belief that striking your children with a "switch", which in translation means a small branch or sapling taken from a tree, made of wood and does not mean a tree made of say duck feathers or say cotton wool……amounts to the same in meaning as the word "beating" used in the quotation by Mr Banks. Just a normal tree. You know brother the type which kills you if you drive your car into it at 70 miles per hour. Just one part thereof just one little part. The smallest of its branches even its outer parts yea a "switch".

Does that help to clarify it brother or is this too just a game of words.

I would post some of Mr Pearls expressions about what "much" means but I have a feeling that the tomahawk throwing gentleman in question is watching. I truly hope so. He can throw one of his tomahawks at me. Not on this site though. I have one of my own and intend to use it.


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