Fundamentalism and spiritual death

Have you ever noticed that after a person comes to faith in Jesus, if they are not careful they get caught up into fundamentalism and eventually find the freedom they had inside now gone and instead they are defending their faith through sword fighting using the scriptures?

I have noticed this even while talking to a guy at work. He goes to the Church of Christ and as I talk to him and we bring up certain subjects his first question is 'what did Jesus say?' in effect what he is really asking is what did Jesus say according to the Church of Christ. I find that fundamentalism tends to choke the life out of a Christian by being so dogmatic in so many things it is akin to being nailed to the cross with the law around your neck. A person is born again and set free and then a Fundamentalist puts the law around their neck in which to add a new set of chains to their lives. As a result there are many people who leave Jesus because of this abuse and become Atheists, agnostics or follow after another faith.

Why does this have to be so? Often times I find comments on this board that lean the very same way yet I stay and read and try to learn why the thinking is so.

So often I find myself getting into a conversation with a more Fundamental type of person and being light hearted and then the conversation turns way too serious.

One example, recently I took a trip to South Carolina to visit my sister n law and family. They are 7th day Adventists. Her mom is Catholic. I have gone with both of them to their respective church just to have something to do but also for the experience of what is going on. I am not there to judge but to observe v. heresay. I have brought these experiences up in conversations with some who are more fundamental and instead of casual conversation I get the 3rd degree. I liken it to having Westboro Baptist church picketing my conversation.

I like to talk about religious beliefs and share what I agree with and don't agree with and I will tell you why but Fundamentalist thinkers seem the need to inject their absolute truth to me and if I don't agree the light hearted conversation gets too serious. I see this as a shadow as to why many have left the Christian faith.

What are your thoughts?

John

Sorry to hear of your experience. I can't really relate to what you are saying because most people who I hang around or know are all about the freedom in Christ and honestly take it to the other extreme. Anytime you attempt to speak into their lives about holiness or living for the Lord they get defensive and shut down. Even just asking a simple question like "so what have you been learning in the Word lately?" gets a response of "don't judge me"
I honestly find it really hard to talk to people who say they are Christians but want to continue living on in sin because they embrace the notions that Jesus is all about love, forgiveness, and freedom.(He is of course but there is a whole lot more too) Apparently to some I know and hang around that freedom in Christ means a license to do whatever. Sin doesn't seem to matter as much cause after all Jesus will forgive. I often wonder if they really see the seriousness of eternity looming before them????

I could see where it would be difficult for you coming from the other end of the spectrum. I always think God is about balance, His perfect balance in our lives and yet its seems for many we find ourselves in one extreme camp or the other. I think it takes prayer, and spending time with the Lord to find and remain in that perfect balance and with Him is possible to do

rdg

rainydaygirl

You are not far off from what I am asking. You are experiencing what happened to me when I died inside back in 1999. People calling themselves Christians yet don't know anything about the Bible and practicing sin because they can't help themselves. It is the opposite of Fundamentalism yet it leads to the same dead end street. I died then because as I was learning, those around me were not and I could not see the reality of God around me in people and thus decided God is left the building, type of mentality.

With Fundamentalist it is as if God is chain to the outside of the building and cannot do anything because what He used to do He doesn't do it anymore. Using the bible hold me captive. That is what the Pharisees did. Some of them mean well while others have agenda for their own church or set of beliefs. I don't swing that way at all. I like to discuss it and find out why someone believes a certain way without them trying to arrest me with their view. I don't try to arrest people with my view. I lay mine on the table and tell others what I am seeing.

Fundamentalists tend to have culture drive their beliefs as well. i.e. styles of dress from the clothing to physical appearance. Even one preachers says Southern Gospel music is heaven's music and if you don't like it you won't like heaven. I hate Southern Gospel music - it is the music and the way the vocals are done that cause me to run and yet some Fundamentalists would accuse me of being apostate. Really? I often would say call me apostate because for me that would be a 'hell' to have to endure. I prefer integrity and hosanna type of praise and worship music.

I need to be quiet, I am quite passionate about this subject.

John

The word Fundamentalist means basic truths which you basically believe in the foundational doctrines of the christian faith such as Jesus is God, Jesus bodily raised from the Dead, he was born of a virgin and other major doctrines.
Fundamentalist is from R A Torreys books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentalshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals

The correct link is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals

The sad thing is with the different "christian's" who represent fundamentalism, they don't seem to represent the Christ, the son of the Living God - they instead represent a denomination.

Sadly, for someone to call me a fundamentalist would be equivalent to calling me bad word. I mean, I would get over it but it would upset me!

God bless,
lisa

When I use the word Fundamentalist I refer to those who abide by near every single word of the Bible and cannot simply discuss it without being very serious. This includes being dogmatic about styles of dress, method of music(in church), healing and so forth. Independent Fundamental Baptist church preachers could be a major example of this.

John you wrote this in your response post to me, "I died then because as I was learning, those around me were not and I could not see the reality of God around me in people and thus decided God is left the building, type of mentality."

I wonder as you look back over that time do you think the reason you lost sight of God was because your focus was so much on others and not on Him? Do you feel like the blame for your dying back then was because of what others were doing or do you hold yourself accountable as well? Just wondering cause of some things I have gone through and learned about myself as well.

rdg

rainydaygirl

Yes, I had too much of a focus on others and not on God plus I had no personal friend who I could feed off of as well.

Back then the 'Christians' around me cause me to become disillusioned as to what God was doing around me, in people around me. I couldn't see the Power of God in any form. I felt like an island to myself and when seeking to go deeper I could not engage in conversation to go deeper because others around me were on the shore line. Even the closest friend I had was one who was a part of the Word of Faith movement and I saw her belief system as a circus act.

Eventually, over the course of a year all of these things chipped away at my heart until it climaxed with a seemingly innocent incident at work with a guy who said he was a Christian. That very day I went home and closed my eyes and intentionally pushed my spirit to die. Anger, resentment and depression came but one thing that never came was crossing the line into drugs and alcohol and sexual relations. I knew better than to cross those lines.

In the end I do have to hold my own self accountable and affirm what it is I believe and why and than stay on that foundation. I have learned more and more there are many voices in Christendom that are built to confuse and destroy Christians. Thus, a reason why I don't listen to Christian radio as I used to. It can put me into a fog very quickly. It shouldn't be yet it happens.

DEADn is this similar to what you might be talking about?...

A few years back I had a fundamentalist stopped me while I was mowing my yard to ask me if I knew Jesus and I said yes, so we talked about Jesus for a minute. He then saw my ear buds and asked me what I was listening to and told him it was worship music and because it wasn't southern gospel, suddenly I was going to hell!

He began to exert his maleness since I was a mere female and instruct me on how only southern gospel music would get people into heaven. I kid you not. And I said, "So by your standards every other culture that is Christian will be going to hell if they don’t listen to southern gospel music then?" He couldn’t listen to me because I was a woman and to actually admit my logic was right would be submitting to a woman! Craziness since he was the one to come on my property and stop me from mowing and then want to argue with me.

God bless,
Lisa

Dictionary definitions aside, American fundamentalism is the belief that God is mainly concerned with correct doctrinal opinions, and that He will torment people in eternity for having incorrect ideas about him.

I fell into this trap early in my Christian experience. I first heard the Gospel and believed at Calvary Chapel Stone Mountain, Georgia - a very healthy spiritual atmosphere. But I was irresistibly drawn to the Independent Fundamental King-James-Only Buzzcut Baptist Church. I loved denunciatory preaching and heresy-hunting; I liked to think that my little church was a tiny, faithful remnant in an ocean of apostasy, and relished the idea that Jesus was coming soon to bring judgment on this idiotic world, especially the Apostate Church.

Why? Because I was an unhappy, mixed-up teenager. But now I hear nationally-syndicated radio preachers who have the same psychology that I did when I was 15.

Now that I have escaped from the Dogma Pound, I can only regard fundamentalists with fear and loathing. I will not put on airs and say that I look at them with love and pity - no, only fear and loathing. I know the danger of their spiritual condition because I used to be in that state myself - and it took a miracle of grace to get me out of it.

So what can we do to help them? Nothing. If you try to point out their error, they will see you as just another heretic who needs to be refuted and consigned to hell.

Only a spiritual earthquake can shake someone out of this condition.

To the world, a fundamentalist is one who believes the Bible literally, one who believes Jesus is the only way to heaven, one who believes in a literal heaven and hell, one who believes fornication and homosexuality are sins against God, and the list goes on and on.

When we're out on the streets, my friends and I get called fundamentalists or fundis quite often because we try to preach the pure gospel truth, the whole counsel of God's Word. I'm kinda used to it I guess.

I believe if John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus were here today they would be called the same by the world. Leonard Ravenhill said, “If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.”

Just to clarify I do agree with the gist of what is being said here regarding strict legalism on non-essentials and spiritual death. My concern is that the word fundamentalism can mean different things to different people, and it can cause unnecessary division and hurt if we paint a broad brush using that term.

Lysa
your example is a stepping stone in my examples. Follow it up with KJV only and women should not wear pants or have short hair and men should have short hair. That only begins the foundation of it.

I find myself only laughing at these people and throwing their nonsense back in their face. For, if their belief is that strong in these areas they truly have issues under their skin. I have noticed that these things have caused some people to leave Christianity but maintain their faith in Jesus and begin to use cuss words in order to get their thoughts across. I don't advocate cussing at all but I am not going to get in their face and rebuke them(although I want to). Rather, in cases of that it is better to find out what happened to them and help them work through it in order to clean up their mouth.

btw, some posters are posting the definition of Fundamentalism. It is my guess then that what I am describing is more of the ultra conservative Fundamentalism. The kind that holds to every jot and tittle to the extent that freedom in Jesus no longer exist but becomes a system of rules and regulations instead of 'I don't want to do this because I don't need to do this' type of attitude.

Lastly, Southern Gospel. I liken it to the be holy grail of the ultra's. I often watch those commercials on the Gaither Homecoming stuff. Some of the music is ok but on the whole I could not listen to it as background music because musically it is not my taste/style. SO why does a (ultra)fundamentalist find that it is the only music to listen to? Lyrically I can see it but musically? (uh, gag me?) Yeah, I am being funny about it simply because I can't help but laugh for crying over how frivolous it really isn't.

Oracio

As I said in a previous post that what I may be referring to is the ultra fundamentalist crowd. The crowd that thinks similar to Independent Baptist churches. They believe certain ways and that is the way it is. Things outside the bounds of the core of the Gospel which, when take to the extreme, abuse more than they grow in people. I see alot of people coming out of it these days and labeling it as Fundamentalism. I read blogs on this all the time and sympathize with these people.

This guy at work who is very Fundamental with the Church of Christ stuff is very serious with his knowledge. He also hates his job because of the circumstances around what he is doing. People don't see Jesus in him. They see an attitude in him but he is quick to talk about the Gospel and then point it to the Church of Christ dogma. Can a person live this way and be happy? ( in Jesus?)

Greetings John

The man you mentioned at work that you seem to have such frustration with are you able to pray for him? If he is as you say lost in this legalistic attitude then he truly does need your prayers. Perhaps when he comes at you with some of these things you could look him in the eyes and just let him know that you love him and are praying for him.

God bless
mj

MaryJane
I do pray for him at times. I also listen to what he says and ask him questions accordingly to find out what is making him tick. This way I can talk to him better. He can quote scripture but for him it comes around to this question 'What did Jesus say?' Especially at the end of the Gospel. Believe and be baptized for the remission of sins.

My next round of questions for him is to ask Him what is God doing in the Earth? I has scoffed at people being healed or someone giving a Word of knowledge type of thing. If he doesn't believe in these thing I want to ask why his God is in a box. He will again refer to the bible.

He has asked me if music should be in church. I know why he asks because CoC doesn't use music. I tell him the Prophets in the OT used instruments on the mountains. He gets frustrated and asks what the NT says. singing songs, and spiritual hymns which means accapella. I have told him that if he holds to this as Gospel truth then he has issues inside. Yet this reflects a fundamentalist view in many cases. Remember-the bible says......

I agree with Oracio, I think we as Christians need to be more responsible in how we use certain words and strive to use words according to their proper meaning (ie. according to its correct definition). We need to consider the historical context of a word and not merely our own personal definition which might be negatively biased. For example, the word "religion" which is defined as: 1) an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality; 2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance - is now used to mean "legalism" which is absolutely incorrect. "Legalism" is "religion" without Christ whereas true worship is "religion" in Christ. The reason why misusing words, like "religion" for example, is so problematic is because it creates a false dichotomy between practice and belief, leaving room for people to label anything that seems too "old fashioned" or "not fitting to this contemporary world" as associated with "religion" in a very negative sense and rather lean toward trying to "modernize" or make "relevant" the faith by neglecting the tried and true traditions and doctrines of the church, all justified because they seem to be "so loving" and the music is "good". It is by this very false dichotomy derived from the incorrect use of the word "religion" that we get pastors who will deny the inerrancy of the word or teach "new doctrines" and consider the old fashioned gospel of sin, righteousness, and judgment or preaching on holiness and righteousness as more akin to a "spirit of religion" than the truth of God that echoes through the ages.

tbsounde2

This is why I put forth the term ultra fundamentalism. What would you prefer that it be called?

by DEADn on 2013/6/6 17:07:50

MaryJane
I do pray for him at times. I also listen to what he says and ask him questions accordingly to find out what is making him tick. This way I can talk to him better. He can quote scripture but for him it comes around to this question 'What did Jesus say?' Especially at the end of the Gospel. Believe and be baptized for the remission of sins.

________________

I am so glad you are able to pray for him. There are times when one can find themselves so frustrated by another attitudes and behavior that praying for them becomes very difficult. I have had this happen to me but I am learning that the more I pray for those around me that I struggle with the more my heart is filled with love for them. Its amazing how GOD works like that :)

You might share with him that his question is not in and of itself a bad one, "What did Jesus say or do?" in a situation is a good place to start because after all we are his followers and want to only do what HE has for us to be doing. When he brings up the need for baptism as a "must" to be saved, perhaps you might just say, "For me its not an issue that I worry about. I realize there are those who say "I must" be baptized in order to be saved but all I have to say to that is "I want to obey Jesus so I want to be baptized" He commanded me to repent of my sins and be baptized so as HIS servant I want to please HIM by obeying HIS command so its not a "must do" for me its more of a heart thing, I want to do. Ask him if he can see the difference in those two thoughts. One brings life and is a result of natural our pouring of the love we have for CHRIST. Our desire to obey HIM is there because we love HIM. The other attitude brings death because the word "must" is slipped in by the enemy taking away the joy of obeying the LORD with a legalistic work that "must" be done. I was baptized because I love the LORD and I wanted to be. It was never a question of "do I have to do this?" it was always "yes LORD!!" in reply to HIS command.

I think if you can stir the conversations in such a way that point him to Jesus instead of engaging in debates you will find you feel a lot less frustrated with him. Remind him that you don't have an issue sharing about the wonderful things JESUS is doing in both your lives but that you have no interest in debating him. Keep the conversations on a personal level of sharing what the LORD is actually doing daily in each others lives and then give the glory to GOD for all that HE does. Share with him that for you its not about winning an argument its all about living a life that reflects JESUS to others.

I will pray for you and your co-working. I think GOD has placed you there with him for a purpose to be a light to him perhaps, what an exciting opportunity to be able to love on this man and share JESUS with him.

God bless
maryjane

MaryJane

Your points are well taken. The only fly in the ointment on this is that this guy is near 60 years old and has been in this church a long time. He even studied for ministry at one point in time. With him he will go from one point to another point.

i.e. The last conversation I had with him was just before I left for my trip to South Carolina. I told him I might go visit that 7th day Adventist church again with my sister n law. His response was what day of the week did the early Christians meet? I thought, 'oh boy, are we playing these games again?' I told him Sunday but if he wanted to follow the commands then when is the Sabbath? I also told him that a soul is not destined for hell because they did not attended church on a particular day of the week. He looked at me with a depressed look. Can you see ultra Fundamentalist developing here?

He wants to take this conversation to more of obey Jesus and how do you obey Jesus more? What did Jesus say? If he said nothing about music then you don't use music in church. It just goes on and on and on.

For me to get through to him I have to properly balance the word and deflect his argument like a ninja warrior deflects the opponents sword. He gives me his view and I use the bible to balance that view. If he doesn't like it then I allow him to think his way and I go my way.

He tends to get a little loud as well so I gentle keep my voice low because it gives for better conversation. A loud voice makes for arguments of which I refuse to get into. Discussion is my game.

Does that make sense?
I suppose you have to also read the words of those who are CoC missionaries to understand their conversational thinking to see where it can all go.

I often ask if Paul is left out of the equation because Paul writes about salvation and baptism as well.