Reformers Identify Antichrist

MARTIN LUTHER "Nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon of very Antichrist...For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? (2 Thess 2:4) All the conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." Martin Luther, First Principles, pp.196-197JOHN CALVIN "I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter...I deny him to be the head of the church." "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in 2 Thess 2:4) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." John Calvin, Tracts, vol. 1,pp.219,220. John Calvin Institutes.JOHN WESLEY "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the perogatives which belong to God alone." Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p.110.Other Reformers in this company are John Wyclif, William Tyndale, John Knox, Philipp Melanchthon and Huldreich Zwingli

Probably unnecessary but just to point out that the Reformers identified 'the man of sin' with the Papacy (the system) not the Pope (an individual).The original KJV had a letter to King James which included the sentences...... the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in the defence of the Truth, ( which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed, ) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the Teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing Father.letter to the Most High and Mighty Prince JamesThis 'sucking up' to the monarchy is not absent from the text of the KJV either!This was the conviction of the translators that Catholocism would never recover from the Reformation...? Were they right?

I'm no fan of the Catholic church; too much ritualism and fanfare. That said, your criticism and judgement of Catholics is outrageous and self-promoting. They claim Christ just as do you. Judge not and, you know the rest.You are jumping to conclusions Jake! The comments are aimed at Catholicism not Catholics.

Dan. 11:38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain. The Anti Christ will worship the god of fortresses. How does this "fit" with Catholicism? In ChristJeff

Bubbaguy wrote:"I'm no fan of the Catholic church; too much ritualism and fanfare".While i have no comment on the gist of this thread, this struck me as an irony ...In the 20 odd years or so our Lord has had me affiliated with the Pentecostal Church i'm assigned to, i've seen us go from a simply dressed minister and ministerial staff and a congregation of about 700 souls worshipping in our smaller paid for sanctuary, all heaven bent on the things of Christ like corporate praise, prayer, fellowship, evangelism and hunger/thirst for the unadulterated Word ... To a congregation of over 3,000 housed now in our new fat mortgaged Cathedral, whose new members are greatly motivated by the Jesus as genie health/wealth/tithes and offerings/plant a seed scam, with a now finely dressed preacher and ministerial staff all decked out in elaborate and costly robes with big gold/silver crosses ... The Word brought forth is now diluted and weak, the choir singing the high point of the service, and we've now got praise dancers for entertainment, and so many more announcments and Sunday service fund raising pep rallies, that our pastor was in fact thinking about ceasing the in unison scripture reading in order to make more time for the other nonsense ... God bless the Godly old timer Deacons and church Mother's who appealed to pastor not to institute such folly ... Brother Greg you wrote:"There are many grevious errors in the papal system that it is hard to imagine that Christians in our day are scared to say anything against them".From my persective there are many grievious errors in the Protestant system that seem now to ape the Catholic system ... Maybe not as bad, but certainly bad enough ... To me the Roman Catholic heirarchy is the epitome of Balaam and Nicholas, but i see both their ugly heads raised in a lot of Protestantism ... i'm not concerened with the Catholic Church, but i am much concerned about this church that Jesus has assigned me to, and will not release me from, and it's this church that i and a small group of like minded believers hold up in prayer collectively and individually for the removal of the mote in our own congregational eye ... i pray Christ correction of His Body real soon, and my prayers for Revival especially here in America are becoming even more diligent, if not desperate, for in many instances for Protestantism to be taking shots at Catholicism is a lot like the pot calling the kettle black ... We may not be as dark but man are we a lot more gray ... charcoal gray ,,,

It has been scary to note the level of interest being shown in the current popes health. Even non church folk see him as a celebrity, a bit like Bono from U2 and accept his words as " wisdom". It is clear that the structure of this system is strong even if adherents are falling away due to abuse scandals etc. Watch the way it reforms itself, it gets a blow to the head , it reels but recovers. Does that not remind you of a certain scripture? The ability of this sect to gain media exposure is amazing. All foriegn heads of state already acknowlege it. So watch it closley but on the other hand watch all round he may only be an evil distraction so that we take out eye of the real antichrist. Just a thought from a country ( Ireland) that has been dominated by this delusion for centuriesPaul

You know Bubbaguy ...There's a saying "Religion has given God a bad name", and i might add so have/can some people ... But praise God our hope and glory isn't in religion, or other folk, as to what they do or don't, but in Christ Himself, the solid Rock on which we stand, for to place your house (hope/faith) on anything else, as the old hymn says, is sinking sand ... i dare say we've all been hurt by religion, other saints, and have done some of that hurt in reverse, but none of us can ever use such hurts (and i'm not saying that you are, but just making a broader point) past or present as any justification for diminishing Jesus as Lord of our lives, or our responsibility to Him, or our responsibility in love, no matter how offended we may feel, to our fellow brother and sisters in Christ ... Paul said, "We that know better must bear the infirmaties of them that don't" ... That's why i pray, and when nothing seems to be getting better, in fact seems to be getting worse, i pray some more ... i have great miraculous "hope" for this church God has assigned me to, which i believe is the very reason He assigned me to it all those many years ago, but my true hope of glory is in Christ alone, Christ the hope of glory in me, and i do pray in you ... i hope that you have overcome your childhood hurt with the church, and have allowed Holy Spirit to move you on in maturity to spiritual healing in He who walks amongst "the candlesticks" ... If you haven't then that is my prayer in love for you my brother ... If you have then i rejoice with you in your allowing Holy Spirit to elevate you to an "overcomer" ... Amen

Brother Bub,You wrote:"Rahman, thanks for your comment and your caring concern"No problem seeker ... But it's not really me as much as it is Jesus reaching out to you thru me ... He finds me an uncapped vessel to His easy pouring in this regard because He knows that i know all to well what it's like to be wounded by religion, and ostracised by religionist, and rescued to Himself, by His Spirit ... But in the long run, as i'm sure you'll soon one day agree, i'm glad that i had my initial blunt period with religion and religionist, because it did not allow me to become ingratiated to a denomination, church, or a preacher like so many other saints i know, but sent me straight into the loving arms of Christ Himself, to know Him for myself ... Now it doesn't matter at all whether i fit in with, or am accepted by anyone else but Jesus ... Holy Spirit's rescuing of me began with ..."Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" ... Matt: 11:28-30You're in need of His rest/light yoke bro, for serving Christ is most often a whole lot easier than serving mans doctinal interpretations of that service ... Being an agnostic couldn't have worked for you at all because as you said in your previous post "I did learn the basics of Christianity there", so you know better ... "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" ... Heb. 6:1-6So you haven't gagged on Jesus, but on religion and religionist ... i noticed right away in your recent post these two very commendable and intelligent things that you decided to do ...#1 - I decided to commit myself to Christ#2 - I also made a commitment to read the Bible through several times and I still read from it nearly every day.That tells Jesus (and me) that even thru your pain you're still seeking after truth ... His truth ... That's exactly how i was ... And when we're like that it makes His heart glad, and activates toward us His promises of reward for such diligence ... For He Himself said ..."Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened ... Matt. 7:7,8"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" ... John 8:32Brother Bub since by your post it is highly unlikely that just at the moment you'll be prone to sitting under anyones teaching i'd like to make this suggestion ... i'm praying that you have no disbelief towards the third person of the Godhead, Holy Spirit, for at this moment in time He is your only hope to being soothed of your hurt, and being led out of your spiritual wilderness ... Christ said this of Him ..."But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" ... John 14:26And also Paul continued ...."For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" ... i Cor. 2:11-13If you have no objection may Holy Spirit, thru me, invite you to begin anew to read the Gospels, beginning with John, but before your doing so your asking Him to guide and reveal to you what it is that He wants to reveal to you, and i'm a witness that after His period of time with you, He'll make you to able to go back before the very folk that caused you your initial pain, and to show thru to them the love of Christ that they were supposed to show to you but didn't ... God has a special purpose for you brother if you'll just allow Him to untie the fetters satan has you bound in ... i hope and pray that you'll allow Him ... Ameni really do appreciate your prayers towards my struggle, and you know you have mine towards yours ... God bless you Bubbaguy, may His grace, peace and mercy follow you all the days of your life ...Br. R

Thanks brother Greg for the clarification ... When brother Bub ended his post to me with the phrase you picked up on i thought about clearing up to him that i wasn't struggling to rectify the problems, but was in fact praying diligently that Jesus would rectify the problems in my own home churc, and most certainly on a grander scale with His entire Church, but didn't address it as you have because i understood what brother Bub was saying to me in regards my prayers toward the church that i attend (or as i say the one Christ has assigned me to) ... Christ grace and peace to you! ...Br. R

Brother Bub,Praise God! ... Then with knowning that Holy Spirit is your ultimate Guide towards revealed truth, follow Him ... Just be careful not to grieve or quench Him when He tells you to move past any entrenched ideas you may presently have that have become your own personal pet peeves that will be hard to let go of ...i've found a good indicator of such an occurence is when it causes me great personal pain, and major sacrifice of self, to move on with Holy Spirit towards His making me more like Christ, and oft times it means that we have to move forward in forgiveness us those who have dispitefully used us at one time or another ...God bless you brother Bub ... i'm praying with you!Br. R