Pre or Post Trib Discussion

My prayer for the Church in the West is to be prepared for persecution, be prepared for the rapture, by staying close to our Saviours side. As Jesus said, 'watch and pray'. so let us pray for the body of Christ, that we will not be found wanting when He comes. Amen

good word Diosesfiel,

brother rbanks wisely said in the other thread ///I am a pre-trib believer who could be a post-trib believer.///

I am a post-trib believer who could be a pre-trib believer.

This is pretty much my default position.

I used to believe in a "left behind" pre-trib rapture scenario, because that is all I was ever taught and I never studied it for myself.

I now do not believe in a pre-trib rapture- not even sure i believe is a literal 7 year trib period.

However, I have not changed how I live my life- my goal was then and is now to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. If I am a devoted follower of Him, I will be ready, regardless of which scenario is true.

Andrew, you wrote:

"What cannot be ignored, regardless of our personal revelation, is the distinction between the literal "short time" which Satan will have in the end, and all other times which precede it."

You are right, the scripture shows a clear distinction between what tribulation is like now for His saints and what it will be like in the great tribulation. And the difference is that for that short time, satan is cast down to the earth from the heavenlies. For three and a half years he will be manifested on the earth both by himself as dragon and through the beast and the false prophet. Try to imagine it! Jesus also ministered physically for the same time on the earth as a time of blessing, healing and salvation. For satan it will be the opposite.

For us saints living today, and for the time when Jesus walked among us satan is the prince of the power of the air and acts through temptation and as the accuser of the brethren. In his future short time on earth he will act differently (but all under the authority of God), to deliver the saints unto death.

I personally cannot believe that the saints being delivered unto death in that time can be the same as us today. I cannot comprehend the Father leaving us in this world with satan physically manifested here. Jesus was tempted like as we are and was accused by both man and by satan, but not through a physical manifestation; and as He is, so are we in this world.

Proudpapa quoted Revelation 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I must ask; is this the cry of the saints today, for judgement and for vengeance? Or are they, as I believe, a different class of saints.

David

DavidC--

All the points you raise can be adequately answered by a person in the partial preterist/post trib or no trib camps.

It seems the point of this thread is not to argue points that have been debated (and unsolved) for years, but rather to encourage us onward to go deeper with Christ, in which case the things of this world will grow strangely dim.. including eschatology things.

I guess my bottom line question is this:

If you are a devoted follower of Christ, why care or worry about what might or might not happen? We are to be anxious for nothing.

I am a firm believer that Jesus is going to come back for His bride. Do I know exactly when? Nope. Do I know when in reference to world events? Not exactly. But I know what His coming will be like, at the least and I know I should be ready for it.

I am concerned that many, many believers (not to mention those who are in the church but not really saved) are unprepared for both His return and the persecution that those who want to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will endure. I am no prophet, but I believe that the USA is on the brink of a persecution that it has never seen before. Forget what our laws say. Forget what our country was founded on. It only takes a spark to ignite a firestorm. Just like at the stoning of Stephen. All of a sudden persecution everywhere erupted against believers.

davidc wrote: ////I personally cannot believe that the saints being delivered unto death in that time can be the same as us today. I cannot comprehend the Father leaving us in this world with satan physically manifested here. Jesus was tempted like as we are and was accused by both man and by satan, but not through a physical manifestation; and as He is, so are we in this world.////

What Scriptures would cause you to conclude that the Saints today are somehow more important to God or more protected by Him and a different class of Saints than what the Saints of Rev. 6 - 7 are ?.

davidc wrote ///I must ask; is this the cry of the saints today, for judgement and for vengeance? Or are they, as I believe, a different class of saints.///

Listen to what Paul said :
2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works

davidc, maybe if you go through what the Saints in Rev. 6 - 7, will go through, than maybe you will understand why they cry "with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Pre-tribulation rapture and post-trib rapture, and mid-trib if any body is in that notion, focus on a very physical catching away of believers. The idea seems to be that the sky opens up and a giant image of Jesus, like a renaissance painting, will extend a beckoning hand and the believers will see the force of gravity dissolve as they rise to His arms.

It just doesn't seem to me to flow with some of the things Jesus has said, and the very specific things Paul mentions in his writing.

For example, Jesus spoke of coming to make His home inside of us, and Paul forcefully says that the hope of glory is Christ in you. His teaching in Corinthians about being changed in the twinkling of an eye to immortality is assumed to be part of the fly-away program, but Paul does not say that.

The image of "rapture" if we want to use that word, is the image Peter, James, and John saw when Jesus was transfigured right in front of their eyes. The man of flesh became the immortal man of the Spirit, but knew that if He kept it, His disciples would be lost. He took it off and went to buy the rest of us. We are given a glimpse of what is coming, fulfilling those words "that where I am, ye may be also."

In all of this, there is no need to "go" anywhere. As many have mentioned here, our eyes need to be fixed upon Him, and to trust that when He comes to be one with his bride we won't be caught looking elsewhere!

As I alluded in the other thread on this, I believe it is Christ's earthly mission to drive Satan and the works of his demons right off the face of the earth that God's will be done here as it is in heaven. If the words of Psalm 149 are to be believed, it looks like we will have a big part in that.

I am nobody. No great scholar, minister, man of political influence. I don't have any skill in Greek, know very little Hebrew either. You are in no way obligated to my words, but I do have a great hope and expectation for the future even as the sun seems to be setting on Western Civilization.

The Father loves the Son and all who belong to Him, there will be a great wedding, and the will of God will one day be the only governance of humankind. The assurance is in my heart that I will be a part of it, even so Come Lord Jesus!

QUOTE:
"My prayer for the Church in the West is to be prepared for persecution, be prepared for the rapture, by staying close to our Saviours side. As Jesus said, 'watch and pray'. so let us pray for the body of Christ, that we will not be found wanting when He comes. Amen"
_______________________________________________________________

Amen!

As I see the rapid deterioration among the powers that be it seems as though it is a cauldron of devils squirming about...as we see this we get frightened and think surely the end time is upon us.

Then I go outside. The morning is crisp, the sun shines brightly, the birds sing, crowd my bird feeder entertaining me in the process; the flowers are blooming. The rain watered the earth; my neighbors - both black and white - are decent people. The dog wants to be petted - a gift given to me by my granddaughter. My husband goes to the greenhouses, I stay home and work - nobody is threatening us with any weapon. The customers are kind, respectful and in good humor. The sun keeps shining and sometimes clouds float on by. It may get hot but it will not last forever - we have learned that.

And then there is the WORD. It comforts us, teaches us that life will be hard for those who trust in the LORD. As I look at nature, the sun rising and setting of each day - who controls that? Certainly no government decree or court does... Or, who sends the rain, the wind? Uncle Sam surely doesn't. As I see these two forces operating, it reaffirms to me that God is just,and beautiful. It is man who messes things up - always. And this is what the book of Revelation is about. God using nature to impress upon man his limits and drives home the futility of his sin and rebellion. God is in control, we see it every morning and the end of the day reaffirms it.

Man is at war with God and he will win. The battle will get bloody, at times. But He will win and if we follow him that means we will be victors as well! Hallelujah! So let us be ever watchful and not allow the devils to distract us from whatever he throws our way!

The Great Tribulation

Now I wonder who thinks America going to turn into a some sort of Dictatorship with the Anti Christ as it ruler..

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Mat. 24:15-22)

When you see the ‘abomination of desolation' then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You see the Anti Christ would want to set up shop in Jerusalem on the temple mount..

Jacobs trouble = Great Tribulation

Although the book of Revelation indicates that all those living on the earth immediately prior to the return of Jesus will be involved in troublesome times, this is especially true for the Jews.

Stanton shows the Jewish character of the period by saying:

“The tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deu. 4:30; Jer. 30:7; Eze. 20:37; Dan. 12:1+; Zec. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Mat. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8+; 12:1-2+, 17+ etc.). It concerns ‘Daniel’s people,’ the coming of ‘false Messiah,’ the preaching of the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ flight on the ‘sabbath,’ the temple and the ‘holy place,’ the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve ‘tribes of the children of Israel,’ the ‘son of Moses,’ ‘signs’ in the heavens, the ‘covenant’ with the Beast, the ‘sanctuary,’ the ‘sacrifice and the oblation’ of the temple ritual—these all speak of Israel and prove that the tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom.”

We will greatly benefit by keeping in mind the purposes God has for this period of time

The first purpose is to make an end of wickedness and wicked ones (Isa. 13:9; Isa. 24:19-20) . . .

The second purpose of the Tribulation is to bring about a worldwide revival (Rev. 7:1-7+) . . .

The Third purpose of the Tribulation is to break the power of the stubborn will of the Jewish nation (Dan. 12:5-7+; Eze. 20:33-38).14

by Diosesfiel
My prayer for the Church in the West is to be prepared for persecution, be prepared for the rapture, by staying close to our Saviours side. As Jesus said, 'watch and pray'. so let us pray for the body of Christ, that we will not be found wanting when He comes. Amen

A very dear friend told me, “It’s a distraction of the enemy,” to keep our focus off of the risen Christ. The Lord showed me that our life and our ministries can be overshadowed by things not of Him and is that what I want for me? Praise His holy name! He speaks if we stop and listen! Can you imagine if the whole body of Christ stopped arguing about this and other topics and just went about the Father’s business?!!! Woo hooo!! Things would move people!

God bless you,
Lisa

TMK

"It seems the point of this thread is not to argue points that have been debated (and unsolved) for years, but rather to encourage us onward to go deeper with Christ, in which case the things of this world will grow strangely dim.. including eschatology things."

But the New Testament speaks so much about the last times, that it is impossible to ignore. Our hearts should want to see Christ in all His glory, His own inheritance dearly paid for when He humbled Himself and became obedient (to His Father) to death, even the death of the cross

(Php 2:9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

(Php 2:10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

(Php 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is speaking of end time, future events which should occupy our hearts now. They concern heavenly, earthly and under-earthly things be gathered in Christ.

And

(Eph 1:9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

(Eph 1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Again, This is God's will and purpose in the future to gather all things in Christ.

And, concerning our (WE which are alive and remain) being caught up.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Come Lord Jesus!

And I'm sure we know many more verses speaking of last time events which have been written for our edification and instruction, not only in the new testament, but the old testament prophesies are full of them.

I agree we need to keep our eyes on Jesus, and not have divisive intent to our brethren, but we should not be blinkered to truth revealed to us through the scriptures for fear of men.

NO BOOK OF THE BIBLE IS CLOSED to His children. God's ways, purposes mysteries and promises for all ages have been revealed in Christ and through His Word.

David

Hello DavidC-

Of course I do not know your specific eschatological views.

My comment was more of an observation that how we walk out our faith really should not be influenced by our specific view of the end times. If you were convinced through careful study that your current opinion on the subject was not correct(and this has happened to many, many people), how would it affect your walk with Christ? Would you abandon the faith? Would you decide to live a less holy life? Or more holy? Or would you simply continue on as usual, striving ahead and trying to become more like Christ?