Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

Personally I don't want to actually discuss this matter, and therefore don't put it into the other thread, because many here want to simply express their own understanding, and not what the Bible teaches. This short look at scripture is only for those that care about the truth, and not what people think or like, or what any respected teacher or denomination teaches, since it all does not matter even one tiny bit. This is only about Jesus' and Pauls' words, and not about a secret rapture not mentioned anywhere in the Bible for all 'too good to suffer' super duper saints. I was one of those once, that was before I understood this one separation God makes to filter out 'super duper saints': Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Once I got touched by the truth on my (back then) very firm pretrib position I had to publicly appologize to a lot of people since I had previously thaught them my own understanding in this matter, and not what the Bible teaches. That is no small matter, God holds us all responsible on this, and some to their public shame and even death because of their great mistake to misinform and not prepare the flock.

So let's ask Jesus himself about when He said he is coming back:

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Son of man is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation according to his own statement. If you follow him and not any other you will respect that above of what anybody else teaches. If you ignore it, you are none of his, just yet. His sheep only hear His voice. Not human philosophy.

1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul describes that event further, and adds a significant second event that happens earlier yet at the same time: "the dead in Christ shall rise first" - He describes the first resurrection, the first ever mention of a mass resurrection of believers that comes BEFORE we together with them (if we are still alive) are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So the first resurrection come BEFORE the rapture.

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Another clear description of the event of the first resurrection. We can clearly and without any doubt identify that when it happens the mark of the beast already has happened earlier. The first resurrection comes AFTER the tribulation of the beast. And so Matthew 24:29 is proven to be 100% correct: Jesus also is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

So the correct sequence is: 1) tribulation of those days -> 2) first resurrection -> 3) Jesus is coming in the clouds with power and great glory

Then the wrath of God starts, everything else before that is just the antichrist trying to establish his NWO and hold everyone firmly under his rule for 42 months.

Now if you are able to see the clear order of things it really depends on you and who do you love more: The truth of Jesus and Paul or false teachers that tickle your ears, in order to confirm to you what you think should be the truth, but is not. That's the choice you have to make, and it's healthier you make it now, because later you will possibly go into full-denial of reality and will loose your faith when you realized you have been lied to by your favorite teacher when it becomes all to evident that we are all "left behind" to face the trial God allows to come upon us all, everyone that dwells on this earth.

The tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God, these two are clearly separated in scripture. True believers of Jesus Christ will be "kept" during that time, not taken out. It's the wicked that will be taken out first, as confirmed in multiple scripture references.

So some really clever teaching of lies wants us to identify with the wicked that will actually be 'taken first' - while making us believe the exact opposite is happening, and even makes us think to be special while identifying with the wicked. Classic play on our natural vanity, at its best. Eventually all wicked will be removed from the earth, because earth does not belong to them, it belongs to the saints during the mill. reign of Christ Jesus.

John 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Revelation 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So that we might be found worthy when this trial shall come upon all the world. Amen!

Quote: "Beyond that you would have to look further to see that there is also a pretrib rapture as well"

Not one verse in context. None. Not in the Bible.

You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.

For all that have missed the simple logic of the 3 verses that are tied together around the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead saints, I give you a little hint:

There can only be one (1) FIRST resurrection. Now read them again and Think!

How long will be pastors of mainstream denominations be allowed to make a mockery of the word of God and deceive children to believe their non-scriptural fairytales? Don't they have any respect for the truth?

-

////You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.///

Hi a-servant

This seems to be very common, someone whom is indoctrinated pretrib, reads the scriptures for themselves and conclude that the Bible does not teach the such.

And yet as of now(and I am sure I will be corrected on this thread.) I have never heard of a post trib read the Scripture for themselves and conclude that the Scriptures teach pretrib

The Scripture seems to me to teach clearly that the wheat and tares will grow together untill the time of harvest, at harvest the tares will be bundled to burn and the Wheat will than be gathered into the barn,

Their does not seem to be a replanting of the Wheat, nor a few immature wheat LEFT BEHIND to than be harvested with the tares.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Not on this earth, but in my Father's House, where we are already seated in the heavenly places in In Christ Jesus. The Father's House that comes down from heaven, the New Jerusalem that we come with God And Jesus who are the light thereof, no sun needed.

Word of God Speak.

In Christ: Phillip

quote: "To that end in simplicity I can see two raptures in the scriptures. One being visible and clear, the other being hidden, needing to be sought out."

They call it "secret" rapture for a reason. Because it's hidden so well, only the "illuminated" are able to detect it.

You know, this all reminds me of the stage trick where one guy hypnotizes a large group of people, and non of them can reason anymore with the slightest quantity of intellectual honesty. They simply do not have the ability anymore to even detect the smallest piece of reality on a given subject. I was there once in this regard, so I know that for a fact it had me blinded for a time, I did not care what Jesus or anyone else said.

If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before:

"this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet"

You will hear it a lot at time when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry?

How about you try to be honest to yourself and find the last trumpet in the scriptures, the one Paul is talking about here:

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If there is such a trumpet in Revelation, you will be able to identify it. And then tell us what happens before that, any other trumpet before that cannot be the "LAST" trumpet. Unless you're hypnotized, of course.

It can cure some truly honest people from "hidden secret stuff" someone else has invented to cause maximum confusion at the time when people need help and guidance the most.

If I may share something that's been on my heart. Lately, every time I come to sermonindex, I have been going away not feeling very good. More and more I see people arguing about this and that instead of exhorting one another and discussing/debating topics with one another seasoned by grace, patience, and thoughtfulness. Much of what I have been reading by certain posters on this forum I feel are not filled with the fruit of the Spirit but rather pride and trying to prove a point and win an argument rather than building up in love; I seriously come away from it with a weariness in my heart, to the extent of me not wanting to participate in this forum any longer. In other words, I have been deeply grieved and hurt by some of the things posted in this forum instead of coming away blessed and encouraged and edified. Sorry to be so open, but I love this community and I have been blessed by so many of you on here in the past, and that is why I wanted to share my heart and plead with you all to remember that none of us are perfect in knowledge, and although theology and doctrine is a hugely important element of the Christian faith, even this without love and humility before the Lord and one another is absolutely vain and meaningless. Let us strive to be careful what we say and even how we phrase things, because we might in our over-zelaousness offend our Lord and Savior by making cavalier statements that wrongfully judge and condemn fellow members of the body of Christ; calling them "none of His" for disagreeing on a particular point of theology which is basically calling them unregenerate sinners because they don't agree with you on a not-essential for salvation issue (but not saying things like eschatology aren't important). let us strive to really show grace to others because we, the chief of sinners worthy of hell, were shown the unmerited grace and favor of our Lord Jesus Christ who drew us to Himself through such meekness, humility, gentleness, and lowliness, which we are all called to follow in like manner. i truly pray that God would search our hearts and daily remind us of how small we really are and how desperately we need Him every single day in everything we do and that He would give us more grace to love Him and others more for the the glory of His great name. thanks for reading my small rant and i truly hope it helps bless this wonderful forum that i appreciate and love so much. God bless you guys =)

The forum is just that, and the postings reveal what people think in the imperfection in which we all live. Don't be dicouraged!

No one's opinions are above the scrutiny of the other posters, and a bit of wrangling should be expected. For me, I love a well reasoned argument and I will tend to do two things- resort to finding a source of humor, or bring in a thought that relates to the discussion from another angle.

But above all, I am constrained by the Spirit Who lives within me to love all the brethren and sisters and not to be insulting or rude. I find it hard to learn and appreciate people who act like that to me.

It is interesting to watch two attorneys go after each other in court, and when the judge ends the day's proceedings see the men say to each other,

"So, will you and Martha be joining Sandy and me at the Lexington for dinner? Say around 7:30? Golf on Wednesday?"

They learn as we should, separate the intellectual disagreements from brotherly love. We know that we will never on this side of Glory agree on everything!

Might I suggest a daring step for some of you? Put your email address in your profile, so that you can be contacted!

Warning- mine is out there, and I get daily spam including the pleading from Nigerian doctors who have millions in the bank they want to give me.

Yeah right. But I do like personal contact and trust God to protect me in wisdom.

A-servant,

I'm not at trying to be offensive but you're coming across to others as a person lacking in love and kindness toward others who have a view that you say you once had yourself.

It seems like you have gone from one extreme to another extreme and over what- a theological view. Do you honestly think that Jesus wants us to be divisive over differing views?

I have always, since I got saved, believed that I was suppose to watch and pray for you know not what hour The Lord may come but I can fellowship with people who sincerely love The Lord but have different endtime views.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

RE: ////If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before:
"this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet"
You will hear it a lot at time when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry? ////

This is why I am so passionate about this subject.
But the majority of Christendom seems to be osas, so to them such a warning is futile. and such subjects are irrelevant.

"And ultimately, and we all know this, the mark of the beast will come, and you will not be able to buy or sell without it. Which means we will all come to poverty if not starvation. We need to change our mind about materilism ..." - Denny Kenaston

(Early Anabaptism) The Approaching Wave of Persecution
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=17842

"What if tomorrow morning you got the daily newspaper and on the front page of the daily newspaper you saw these words written across there: "cashless society, all peoples have two months to make the transition to cashless society".
Oh, it would be presented so beautifuly , so nicely and so wonderfully and inviting to all of us:
'That its so much easer to deal with all the terrorist and all of those things, that if we just went with a cashless society, and you do not need a credit card anymore. And all you need to do is, get a little mark in your wrist in your hand and maybe one on your forehead and everything is going to be alright and you got to months to transist into this cashless society'." (to refuse that mark will be Gelassenheit) — Denny Kenaston

(Early Anabaptism) Gelassenheit—Complete Surrender
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=17838

Quote: " This is why I am so passionate about this subject. But the majority of Christendom seems to be osas, so to them such a warning is futile. and such subjects are irrelevant."

Well, good to hear that not all here are sound asleep and someone actually understands the whole scope of the problem. I didn't want to particularly go into this subject of consequences of buying into hidden "la-la land doctrines" that always comes at a great cost, and the real danger of sending other people to hell by sheer ignorance, as taking the mark is the trial for all of us that are alive today, and that is an actual biblical event that will come also on the ignorant.

Let's face it, if you're ready now to put your trust into things that are not visible in the Bible you already qualify to join any non-biblical cult at any given time. And you are not safe from falling into even greater danger. You need to wake up, and regain what is lost, that's the call of love to you.

About the cashless society: Not many people actually know what has happened behind the scenes in 2008 in top financial circles, we have been on the verge of total bankruptcy and days away from absolute system crash. We are now in the extended "extra-time" already, because someone in charge decided to print tons of paper money to prolong the illusion of a working economy for a certain time, until they are ready to orchestrate the planned system crash with other events that are also planned together for their desired system change and a new world order. This can happen at any time, market insiders know it's going to happen and its in process when they start to manipulate the metal exchange market. Which already is underway as we speak. The goal is to invalidate exisiting assets and offer/force new credits both on industries and individuals. Then when everyone is in massive debt by taking on new, almost interest free credits, all bail out credits will stop. Their think-tank that always tells things 1 or 2 years ahead of time before they implement it, already announced these exact plans, its already published as official plans in all the major newspapers, Bernanke agreed. So it's not a matter of "if" but only "when" this will start to wipe out any form of cash or other liquid assets. Almost everyone will be in debt, and ready for the offered "solution".

It was once said here that it takes a certain age to be able to discern both good and evil. This is one of these things, and I cannot tone it down to accommodate such a heavy matter to children. If you're too young to discuss meaty matters be so kind to know your limitations and not respond to a thread that is above your understanding, I say this to all the rest of you that call truth and reality "offensive", which shows that you prefer to stay in the "middle of the road" and don't like either hot nor cold. Well this isn't it, please be so kind to allow us older folks also sometimes to talk among ourselves on our level of understanding.

RE:///Well, good to hear that not all here are sound asleep and someone actually understands the whole scope of the problem. I didn't want to particularly go into this subject of consequences of buying into hidden "la-la land doctrines" that always comes at a great cost, and the real danger of sending other people to hell by sheer ignorance, as taking the mark is the trial for all of us that are alive today, and that is an actual biblical event that will come also on the ignorant.///

I would be more susceptible to believe the modern perspectives concerning eschatology, If it where not for dreams which where clear warnings, that I recieved at a very young age, before I new anything of the Scriptures or had hardly even stepped foot in a church building.

I have been well aware my entire life that every scheme known to man will be used by the enemy to convince us that the mark is not the mark.

I have been well aware that many whom will appear as humble pious sounding brethren, will recieve and try to convince me and all others to receive the mark.

The true remnant has always been much smaller than the professing remnant. And often the true remnant has had to stand completely alone and recieve persecution that could be avoided simply by seemingly small compromises.

If I am wrong than that is OK.

If I am right, than we have an unprepared church whoms doctrines are going to make it very difficult for them to refuse the mark.

If what Denny Kenaston said does come to pass ,(and it sure does look like it will.) than all of you whom are reading this, will you except the mark or Gelassenheit ?

brother Andrew I have to say I scence the same thing as you ,,,,,but personly I lean toward post trib ,or maby mid trib ,,,so when I say this it not because I believe in pretribulation just the spirit mokery is strong

god bless us all have mercy on us

Great post PP, I do share both your experience at a young age as well as your conviction,

"I would be more susceptible to believe the modern perspectives concerning eschatology"

Well, did you have a look around on christian forums that have a dedicated eschatology section, lately? I was active on a few of them the last 10 years, but to my horror they are moving backwards to even leave all biblical orientation and embrace wilder distortions now than I ever imagined possible. We are warned that the end times will be like this, getting worse and worse and you cannot ask them to stick with sound doctrine anymore, neither would they know what it is. I'm sorry to say, eschatology today is almost dead, I try to still read it, but it's almost not possible anymore to find anyone that isn't off-scripture to the larger part of their speech, and basically not worth reading.

"I have been well aware that many whom will appear as humble pious sounding brethren, will recieve and try to convince me and all others to receive the mark."

You wouldn't be wrong, that's why I concentrate mostly on my family now, you might know that Satan has a way to always attack a family unit through the weakest members. Educate them and you will do well.

"If I am right, than we have an unprepared church whoms doctrines are going to make it very difficult for them to refuse the mark."

You are correct, I haven't told you my full take on this yet, this forum would not be able to cope with it. They think to attack the messanger is a virtue and worthwhile contribution.

Well, this is the general mindset of our time, compromise and shallowness are the standard, and truth is a strange thing to them. The difficult part is, when they realize that all the warnings suddenly come true to us in real time, it's almost to late to influence them to stick with biblical truth. The learning process to put our faith in the real Jesus is active now, now we learn the lessons to fully trust him in even these "impossible situations".

One elder I respect always said, "the Holy Spirt is most likely teaching you the very same things that he is teaching me right now" and I can say this for sure that this is what I have been learning lately, to fully trust him "against all odds" and one of these miracles has taken place just two weeks ago, where human logic + human law says one thing, but Jesus made a decision above all that so even a local government changed their proceedings against their usual guidelines, and one official of them said to my wife "It looks like God is with you". Very dramatic, every time we forget it he reminds us, with Jesus really everything is possible, IF He is for it, not even a government can be against it.