Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

docs Jun 30, 2013

I finally came to a posttribulational viewpoint because of what I honestly think the scriptural view is. I know most can say the same regarding their view. Even though I'm posttribulational I still am pre-millennial and not amillennial and I don't believe the Church is Israel but rather that the Church is made up of those who are partaking of promises made to Israel. I read of all the issues and discussed them with others on other forums and came to be suprised by many of the views that commonly accompany the pre-trib view. I heard it asked if the common lay person who advocates the pretrin view is aware of the beliefs that accompany it so often. When the pre-trib view was presented to me over the years nobody said much about the other views that so often accompany this view. I have been suprised also because of the many different views in the pre-trib camp that can be bewildering to a certain degree. I thought there was more common agreement. I might be wrong but I wonder if many who advocate the pre-trib view know of the many outight reverses and changes that have been made in the pretrib view over the years so as to help it maintain credibility. Many people who believe in the pre-trib view agree with the following while many don't.

1) The Day of the Lord does not occur at the end of the tribulation but includes the entire length of the final 7 years culminating in the great tribulation.

Me: Since its inception in the 1830s pre-tribulationism had taught that the Old Testament righteous would be resurrected and raptured along with the rest of the Church at the pre-tribulational rapture. This was shown to be a glaring error and was later changed and later even the timing of the Day of the Lord was changed. This history of change can be seen in the following quote,

"In 1937 Alexander Reese published, “The Approaching Advent of Christ.” Before this, earlier pretribulationists put the day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation. They also put the resurrection of the OT righteous at the time of the pretribulation rapture until Reese pointed out that the Old Testament righteous do not rise until the end of the tribulation at the last day (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48)."

"It is a little known fact that in reaction to the inconsistencies pointed out by Reese’s book, pretribulationists began to teach that the OT righteous would not be raised with the church at the rapture (as formerly believed), but would continue to ‘sleep in the dust of the earth’ until the ‘last day’ at the end of the tribulation (Dan 12:1-2)."

"At the same time, Reese pointed out that Paul had instructed the church to be on guard for the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:2, 6-, as also Peter exhorts believers to be always “looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of the God” (2Pet 3:12 ASV). This would hardly make sense if the church has been removed from the earth seven years before a post-tribulational day of the Lord. The force of Reese’s argument induced some of the earlier pretribulationists to rethink their placement of the day of the Lord."

"After the publication of Reese’s book, pretribulationists moved the day of the Lord forward to the beginning of the seven years. The day of the Lord would now be seen as starting with the imminent, unsignaled, pretribulation rapture. In this way, both the rapture and the day of the Lord could be seen as coming suddenly, unexpectedly, and without preceding signs, “like a thief in the night” (1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10). It seemed the perfect solution."

"In 1973 Robert Gundry wrote, “The Church and the Great Tribulation. In the years following Reese’s landmark rebuttal, pretribulationists taught that the day of the Lord should be understood to begin with the any moment rapture. This would soon change, at least in academic circles."

"Gundry pointed out the simple fact that regardless of where the day of the Lord is thought to begin, if we say it starts with the rapture, then the rapture cannot be maintained as an imminent event, simply because Paul says that ‘that day’ shall not come until the man of sin has first been revealed (2Thes 2:2-3)."

"This is decisive, because regardless of where one begins “that day”, it cannot be disassociated from Christ’s return to ‘gather together’ the church (2Thes 2:1-3). Gundry’s logic sent waves throughout the pretribulational camp, but another strategic adjustment was soon to follow.

"I have scholarly articles published in journals where pretribulationists admit the problem posed by Gundry. The answer for the difficulty was to propose an additional gap between the rapture and the day of the Lord in order to provide time for the Antichrist to be revealed ‘after’ the rapture, but ‘before’ the start of the day of the Lord."

"The acknowledgment that the day of the Lord is signaled by the advance revelation of the Antichrist puts to rest the false theory that the use of the term, ‘thief’, requires the concept of imminence (an event that may occur any moment without warning). No, it is clear that the Lord and the apostles apply this term (i.e., ‘day of the Lord’) to an event that is by no means imminent, as now admitted, even by pretribulationists."

(From article The Rapture Question Answered Decisively By The Timing Of The Day Of The Lord - R. Kelly)

Me: I wonder how many laypeople in the pew who advocate the pre-trib position know of these changes that had to be made for the pre-trib view to maintain its credibility. Epsecially the changing of the Day of the Lord from occuring at the end of the tribulation to including the entire breadth of the final seven years? Notes in the 1917 edition of the Scofield Bible states plainly that the Day of the Lord occurs at the end of the tribulation and the 1965 revised edition of the Scofield Bible places the Day of the Lord as beginning at the pre-trib rapture and including the entire breadth of the final seven years. To say this is a minor and incidental part of the development of doctrine in the pre-trib view is incorrect. Changing the timing of the Day of the Lord to include the entire seven years is a colossial change of staggering importance that affects everything as far as final eschatology goes and is a glaring example of exegetical manipulation in my opinion. Outside of academic circles few may even know this change was made.

2) The age of grace will end at the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. All those saved after the pre-trib rapture will still be able to be saved but they will not be saved in the age of grace which will end with the rapture.

Me: When it pointed out that the tribulation is portayed as perhaps the greatest time of evangelization and soul winning that has ever the reply I have usually got is that grace will still be operative during that time but more along the lines of how grace operated under the Old Testament era. My thought has laws been that if grace will still be operative during that time and people will still be saved because of grace then how can it be advocated that the age of grace will have ended at this time.

3) The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at the pre-trib rapture. Since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church and the Church will be gone the present minstry of the Holy Spirit will be stopped as it is withdrawn from the earth.

Me: This seems to be a reversal of Pentecost. God is actually going to reverse what He began at Pentecost by taking the Spirit from the earth? Paul stated that "our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;" (I Thess 1:5) so how will the gospel be preached with full conviction and power during the tribulation if the Spirit is gone? It's the Spirit that convicts the world because of its sin (John 16: At Pentecost Peter stated, "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear" (Acts 2:33). In reply, it's usually argued that the Holy Spirit will be gone but it will still be active on the earth. My question then was why would the Spirit leave if it is still going to be active on the earth? The reply has usually been it wil be active as it was during the Old Testament era during the tribulation.

4) Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church. The Church will be gone and the age of grace ended and those saved during the tribulation will belong to the redeeemd entity of Israel which is an entrirely different group than those of the Church.

Me: Rev 7:14 states that "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Yet according to pretribulationism thay are still not part of the Church even though every believer from Christ until the rapture who had their robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb became part of the Church.

The question arising from this view has been stated as,

"Does the suggestion that Israel has yet a role to play in the program apart from the inclusion of the Jews within the worldwide fellowship of people who acknowledge Jesus as Savior, Messiah and Lord necessarily encroach on the finality of what Christ accomplished in the establishment of His Church as the one people of God in which all racial barriers have been eradicated? And how can Israel serve both as a type of the kingdom inaugurated at Christ's first advent but consummated only at His second and as a distinct group possessing theological importance alongsdide of the spiritual kingdom of Christ - the Church?" (From "The Millennial Maze" - by Stanley J. Grenz - ch 4 "A Future Kingdom For Israel" - pg 124)

5) The Holy Spirit will not indwell believers who come to faith during the tribulation. It's present inward ministry to believers will have stopped at the end of the age of grace which will end when the pre-trib rapture takes place. The Spirit will be "with" tribulation believers but not "in" tribulation believers as on the day of Pentecost when "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4). Tribulation believers simply will not be given the privileges and promises that accompany believers during this church age of grace.

Me: When I have heard this belief stated and advocated I have always wondered how one can be saved and born again if the Spirit does not dwell within them. How can one experience the new birth and inward regeneration if the Spirit does not reside within? I've been told that the tribulation believers will be saved but not regenerated inwardly as those who believed before the end of the age of grace that will end at the pre-trib rapture. A new take on the nature of New Testament salvation itself seems to be advocated if this is so.

6) Only part of the New Testament scriptures will be relevant for those who come to faith during the tribulation. Since much of the New Testament scriptures concerned the Church and part concerned Israel the parts pertaining to the Church now gone will be of no importance or relevance for those who come to faith during the tribulation since they will not become part of the Church.

Me: I'm thinking that those saved during the tribulation have been reduced to experiencing a second tier salvation altogether if when they come to faith the Spirit will not indwell them and major portions of the New Testament will supposedly not even concern them since they are to not be part of the Church. Poor Israel who will experience this second class salvation!

7) The Church has no role to play whatsoever as far as supprt and witness to Israel during the final tribulational time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21).

Me: This may be the point associated with the pre-trib view tha has the biggest possibility of dire consequences as far as the eschatological preparation of the Church is concerned. More is at stake than can be imagined. If the Church is to be be here for the duration and what better people to befriend and witness to Israel than a prepared servant Church that holds the key to prophetic interpretation that will explain to Israel why it finds itself in the predicament it will. When world opinion has turned against Israel and it finds itself harried, pursued and persecuted then there can be a servant Church prepared to lay down it life for beleagured Israel. This Church will be devoid of its own self interests and will willingly accept its tribulational role even as it finds itself harried and persecuted and in the wilderess also. It is then that "those who know their God will display strength and take action and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many" (Daniel 11:32-33). The Church will have the insight as to what is occuring and will witness to Jews and Gentiles and point them to Christ. This befriending and support of Israel will help pave the way to heal the historical breach between Isarel and the Church since it is the Church who so often during its history has stood with its feet on the neck of the Jews. It's God's wisdom and genius to have the Church present and functioning to Israel since the destinies of both are beginning to converge again.

Summary:

- The Day of the Lord does not occur at the end of the tribulation but includes the entire length of the final 7 years culminating in the great tribulation.

- The age of grace will end at the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

- The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at the pre-trib rapture.

- Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church.

- The Holy Spirit will not indwell believers who come to faith during the tribulation.

- Only part of the New Testament scriptures will be relevant for those who come to faith during the tribulation.

- The Church has no role to play as far as support and witness to Israel during the final tribulational time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21).

I may have come across as provocative and I'm not trying to. I'm just of the opinion that the question of the rapture and when it occurs is one of very great and growing importance and the believers need to wrestle it out as well as possible. And it's not just whether or when the rapture will occur but as referenced above there are many questions and beliefs that often accompany the pre-trib view that need looking at again in my opinion. Much is at stake as far as the Church's preparation for the future is concerned especially in regards to any role it will play regarding Israel in the future. We may have to try hard but we can look at things again and discuss them in a manner characterized by wisdom from above that is pure and peaceful and gentle and without hypocrisy and destined to bear fruit.

Blessings to you.

sermonindex Jun 30, 2013

This is something which I wrote early last year in another post. I was just rereading that post when you posted this one of yours. I thought it would be worth adding.

1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him [Christ] coming as the veil of the cloud is removed.

In reading chapter five of 1 Thessalonians we get a clear exhortation by the Apostle of that Church, as to the substance of the confidence he had, namely that the Thessalonians were themselves walking as children of light. In this letter The Lord is described as coming as a thief in the night. Yet the Thessalonians were not only children of light but were also walking as children of light. It is therefore easy to understand why Paul is confident in them. It also reveals something of the nature of the Lord’s return, which in the first instance is not seen except by those who are awake, walking in the light. To everyone else Jesus is unseen as He takes that which is his possession, as though He were a thief coming in the night so as not to be seen. This is of course only “as a thief” in the night and not "a thief" in the night. We are all His righteous possession so we should expect to be taken by Him. Yet if we sleep and do not walk in the light as He is in the light, we will find that walking in the darkness of this hour in which we live, will prove to result in being left behind. Later Paul revisits this theme in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 because some were disturbing the faith of the Thessalonians by reporting that the Lord had already returned in the hidden way described in 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Clearly if there were no substance to the claim that it may be possible to be left behind at the Lord’s return no one could have been disturbed at all. It is also significant to us today to recognise the same test or criteria which will mark or else prove that hour of the Lord’s return in the clouds before He is become visible to all men.

sermonindex Jul 1, 2013

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we, who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Although these two passages of Scripture both speak about the Lord’s return there is one profound distinction between them. The one is the Lord in the clouds which therefore cannot be visible and the other is The Lord on the clouds which cannot be but visible.

sermonindex Jul 1, 2013

The provocation of 2 Thessalonians chapter two makes for a test as to the time when the Lord will return as is clearly stated in that passage. What is of course not so clearly stated is at what time the Lord will come in the clouds. In Acts we read about the ascension of Christ into heaven and two witnesses appearing to the Apostles to tell them that as they had seen Christ go to heaven, so in the like manner would Christ return (Acts 1:9-11). The Apostles were said to have been gazing intently into the sky, and no wonder they were, yet as intently as they gazed they would not have see anything beyond the sky and the cloud once the cloud had covered the Lord.

That Jesus was in the cloud, yet no longer visible is self evident. See Exodus 13:21 & 20:21. Also Matthew 24:30. God has always hidden Himself in the clouds when he has spoken to those He has chosen or else when He is bearing witness of Himself or even The Son, as at the Lord's baptism. In Revelations 1:7 we see what the fullness of God's labours are, though Christ return to the earth in the clouds, (as the witnesses said in Acts 1:9, in like manner as He returned to heaven) so that which is hidden by the cloud is become fully visible again, even Christ Himself. "They shall see Him Whom they have pierced.

The Thessalonians passage has to do with a specific event in time, but so is the Lord's return, though we do not know the hour of it. This does not mean that we cannot encourage one another to look to the Lord's return and at the same time understand that we are not actually looking for the thing spoken of in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:3-9 specifically. If the thought of the Lord's return does not encourage us then let it be for wisdom at least. As the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

docs Jul 6, 2013

Thanks for your replies and the time you took in doing so. I'm sorry I haven't got back to you before now but have just been busy. I haven't got as much time as I desire even now but can share a few of my thoughts.

More so than Jesus coming as a thief for a secret rapture of His church, I believe the day of the Lord is spoken of as coming like a thief on a unbelieving and unsuspecting world not prepared for it. There is a vast difference.

1 - Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

2 - For you know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

3 - While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 - But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief;

5 - for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness.

6 - so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. (I Thess 5:1-6)

Verse 2 shows it is the day of the Lord spoken of as coming like a thief in the night and verse 4 shows that is the day of the Lord that will overtake many like a thief. The same is seen in II Peter 3:10 - it's the day of the Lord that will come like a thief.

The one instance where Jesus speaks of coming like a thief is Rev 16:15. This is when the 6th bowl is being poured out and is near the end of the tribulation and is seen in connection with the great day of God, the Almighty. This great day of God the Almighty is the day of the Lord.

12 - And the sixt angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east.

13 - And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;

14 - for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 - (Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.) (Rev 16:12-15)

Jesus' reference to coming like a thief is clearly after the sixth bowl has begun to be poured out which is clearly near the end of the tribulation and very near to the second coming and the end of the age. So Christ couldn't possibly have referred to his coming like a thief in connection to a secret rapture of the Church seven years or so before the end of the age. It's not exegetically possible and the statement of Jesus in Rev 16:15 of coming like a thief gives clear defintion and clarity to the timing of His statements in Matt 24:43 and Luke 12:39 regarding the coming of the thief.

I Thessalonians 4;13-18 is a reference to the second coming of Christ and there are sound and firm reasons to believe so.

13 - But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 - For the Lord Himself will descebnd from heaven with a shout, with the voice o the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 - Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words. (I Thess 4:13-18)

This is the time when the translation and glorification of the saints living and dead occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

51 - Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.

53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and thi mortal must put on immortality.

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal wll have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 - "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? (I Cor 15:51-55)

"Death is swallowed up in victory" is taken from Isaiah 25:8 which refers to the time of Israel's final deliverance from their enemies and the resurrection of their righteous dead at the end of the age. When this final deliverance takes place and death is swallowed up it will be said " O death, where is your victory, O death where is your sting?" This occurs at the end of the age and Paul obviously links it to the same time as the resurrection and translation of the Christian saint as seen by his references in I Cor 15:51-55. Since Israel's righteous are raised at the last day at the end of the age (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) then the raising and translation of the Christian saints would have to be at the end of the age and ot seven years before. At the very end of the age, when the 6th bowl is poured out near the end of the tribulation, is when Christ speaks of coming like a thief. Thus a secret rapture of the Church to occur seven years before that is to occur as a thief in the night is left mute and unprovable. It was Paul who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit linked the time of the raising and translation of the Christian saints with the raisng and resurrection of Israel's righteous - at he end of the age.

sermonindex Jul 6, 2013

More so than Jesus coming as a thief for a secret rapture of His church, I believe the day of the Lord is spoken of as coming like a thief on a unbelieving and unsuspecting world not prepared for it. There is a vast difference.

docs

1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10

There is no doubt that this passage from 1 Thessalonians chapter five does not make the Thessalonian believers the subject of Paul’s comments. Verse three makes that clear enough. The qualifying confidence is expressed in verse one and verse two. Both verses speak of the fact that the Thessalonians are not in ignorance if times, epochs [seasons] or the manner in which the Lord will return. It is also abundantly clear therefore that the, “they” in verse three, must be some other than the Thessalonians. Verses four and five similarly express Paul’s confidence in the Thessalonians due to their spiritual condition [born again] as well as their soberness in that they “do not get drunk at night”.

One would have to ask what Paul would have said if their conduct had been different.

Verse eight is the qualifying motive for the Thessalonian attitude. It is the hope of salvation.

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

These verses deal with the exact same issue as is expressed as “times and epochs” in the first letter to the Thessalonians, namely “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him” (v1).

This time Paul expressly points to the substance or qualifying conditions of the “times and seasons” previously acknowledged as within the grasp of the Thessalonians. Clearly they had been “disturbed” and so Paul is writing that which he previously taught them, else they could not have know the times and seasons, namely that the end of this age would be marked by the revealing of the man of sin first, then the Lord’s return as "like a thief in the night."

“..........that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come”.... (v2).

One would have to ask how the Thessalonians could be disturbed so as to believe that the day of the Lord had come. 3:17 shows that Paul gave them a way of identifying his letters by a “special mark” and so it may be reasonable to assume that the Thessalonians were disturbed by a letter purporting to be from Paul. Either way they were disturbed, and the basis of their disturbance was a claim that the day of the Lord had come.

As has been said previously very clearly, the gathering together unto the Lord of both those who are asleep and those who are awake takes place after the man of sin is revealed. Yet this does not mean that it will be necessary for believers to live through that 42 month period of time known as the Great Tribulation. It simply means that he must appear first before the gathering together takes place. As this appearing is according to the working of Satan, then he [Satan] must first be caste down from heaven. He is allotted forty two months with the man of sin and the false prophet according to their various activities (Revelation 12:10 to Revelation 13:17).

The most significant verse in this whole passage for helping to understand this difficult issue is:

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

If you can see this then you can understand why the Thessalonians were disturbed.

At the very moment that Satan is cast down to the earth it is declared from heaven “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come".

This is the beginning of the kingdom come. After this there is yet forty two months left of this age. May the Lord grant us all wisdom and understanding.

rbanks Jul 6, 2013

I praise God for you brother Andrew!

Although I don't have the time right now to read and study all that you have written on this thread like I would like to, what I have 'read over' has tremendously been a blessing to me.

I for one appreciate the sacrifice and the price it has cost you in receiving the insight and wisdom of the scriptures.

You have explained the need to being "dressed in readiness" as well as why "there is the warning" to be ready for His coming better than most I have heard.

Please, I hope you don't let this come off as a "flattering" but from a man who is truly "after God's own heart" to another man who is believed to be also "after God's own heart".

I can't help how you perceive it but you have truly blessed me with truth from God's Word and I am grateful for it!

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Christinyou Jul 6, 2013

Andrew, I also have been blessed by the knowledge of the Word God has given you. The Holy Spirit is truly the greatest teacher, Himself being God almighty. To see this blessing in other brothers and sisters is confirming God placing His Only Son in the believer giving life and the Holy Spirit Teacher giving truth. Praise God for you and all on this forum seeking the Truth.

This is truly hard in my own conceit, to praise and uplift brothers and sisters, knowing and praying that even I must decrease and He must increase. Why is it so hard to say what is inside ones own heart?

Thank you Andrew and may God richly bless you, that you may bless others.

Thank you rbanks for the unction to give thanks to others.

In Christ: Phillip

staff Jul 7, 2013

Hi Docs,
1.The tribulation is all about the a 7 year period of time divided in two 3 1/2 yr periods.Anything to do with 3 1/2 year period in the bible is always connected to Elijah.
If you dont study Elijah in my opinion you cannot understand this part of the end times.
2.Also Jesus said "as it was in the days of "Noah" and "Lot"
They did eat,they drank,given in Marriage,bought and sold etc "until the day".
We can see that the earth was functioning pretty much as normal in the two specific examples Christ gave.The world was not post apocalyptic world for the want of a better word.
Jesus went out of his way to highlight that things would be A- normal
b-Normal right up to the day

The problem I have with the Post trib view is this,
The earth is after going through the worst time in its history not alone with the reign of the Anti Christ but also with wrath of God being poured out upon it and people are buying and selling(means their is something to buy economy) eating and drinking,marrying
3.We see that their is no time for the earth to recover to normality after the tribulation in the verse below when it says "immediately after the tribulation"

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I'd like you to consider these points,
Yours Staff

proudpapa Jul 7, 2013

1 Thessalonians 5
"1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

chapter 5 verse one starts with the word "But" "dev" "De" this is a conjunction word, : meaning that it is joining the previous thoughts of chapter 4 with what is now being said.
chapter 4 was speaking of the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ rising first, and those which are alive and remain being caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Directly from that thought and using a conjunction word to join and continue the thought, Paul says: "((But)) of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you"

The thought continues as he says in verse 2:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Paul has written about one continual thought from ch 4:15 to the present verse of speaking about: "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"

Paul has not seperated the "day of the Lord" from what was spoken of at the end of chapter 4, they are both being included as the same event.

The exhortation is being given to believers so that they do : "not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

What if believers refuse to head to the exortation ?

proudpapa Jul 7, 2013

"...I think about 90% of believers, born again believers, and perahps most of you,,, believe that Jesus Christ will come 7 years before,,,,,or as soon as the tribulation starts and secretly rapture the church.
I believed it too,,, as a young Christian,,. because I was taught that.
But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that.
I discovered that it was a teaching of man,,that arose in England about 150 years ago,,.
No buddy believes it in the persecuted countries like China,,, or in the old communist countries,, nobody would believe it.
It arose in countries that never experienced persecution for centuries. And it is a very comfortable doctrine...." - Zac Poonen

docs Jul 7, 2013

You wrote,

"1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him [Christ] coming as the veil of the cloud is removed."

Me: You speak of the hidden nature of the Lord's return proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. So I'm assuming you believe there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church before the Man of Sin appears.

You also wrote,

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31."

"Although these two passages of Scripture both speak about the Lord’s return there is one profound distinction between them. The one is the Lord in the clouds which therefore cannot be visible and the other is The Lord on the clouds which cannot be but visible."

Me: So there will be a great trumpet that will sound and a resounding shout of the archangel that will occur but yet this coming of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will not be visible otherwise? I'm not trying to be a burr but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that this supposed coming will not be visible because the clouds of the air will cover and conceal Christ. And before the 1830s, where in church history was the rapture of the believing Church determined to be a separate event from the second coming? Where was it determined one was to be a "coming" for His church that would not be visible and then the second coming would be His "appearance" which would be visible to all? Out of all the studying and praying that went on over the centuries, why was this hidden rapture that is to occur before the second coming not seen or understood by other scholars of the word over the centuries? I'm not a know it all but and I know this question seems at times to annoy brethren in the pre-trib camp but in my opinion it's a very legitimate question to ask.

And what of those saved during the tribulation? If to be saved and washed by the blood of Christ is to be delivered from the wrath of God then why will they have to continue in the tribulation since to even be in the tribulation is said to be expereincing the wrath of God? If they are saved shouldn't they automatically be removed from the tribulation since because of their salvation they are no longer subject to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)? Since they are no longer destined for wrath why will they have to endure the tribulation when those before them not subject to wrath were removed?

The main point though is I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is thought of as describing the pre-tribulation rapture when the dead saints are resurrected and along with the living saints are translated and glorified. Paul makes mention of this in I Cor 15:51-55.

51 - Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.

53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and thi mortal must put on immortality.

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal wll have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 - "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? (I Cor 15:51-55)

Yet in verse 54 why does Paul use a reference from Isaiah 25:8 in the same context of the translation of the saints? The passage from Isaiah,

6 - And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, and refined aged wine.

7 - And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering wghich is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 - He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 25:6-8)

Isaiah chapters 24-27 have been described as Isaiah's "mini acocalypse." In encapsulated form these chapters contain the judgment of God on the nations, the earth reeling, God's protection and the final eschaological deliverance of Israel. In these chapters the resurrection of Israel's righteous is covered when corpses shall rise and those who lie in the dust shall awake (Isaiah 26:19) and this is when the Lord will swallow up death for all time (Isaiah 25:8). Paul uses this passage from Isaiah and quotes directly from it when he is speaking of the translation of the saints in I Cor 15:51-55. Since the resurrection of Israel's righteous occurs at the last day at the end of the age and coincides with the second coming of Christ then it's safe to assume on sound exegetical grounds that the translation of the Christian saints occurs at the same time. I Thess 4:13-18 therefore concerns the resurrection of the saints and their glorification and translation ("in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed") along with the living saints.

Why is Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 usually left out of discussions concerning the timing of the rapture? Especially Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 which coincides with Israel's final deliverance at the end of the age. In I Cor 15:51-55 Paul places the translation of the Christian saints of the Church at the same time as Isaiah 25:8 occuring - at the end of the age and not seven or three and a half years before. THEN (verse 15:54) is when the saying will come about that death has been swallowed up in victory. When is the THEN? When Israel's righteous dead and the Christian saints are raised and translated together.

(Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) These scriptures show Israel's dead being raised at the last day. Paul undoubetdly connected the raising and translation of the Christian saints at the same time thereby eliminating any thought or notion of a two phased seond coming.

Blessings to you and I'm praying my spirit and attitudes are correct. Thank you.

psalm1 Jul 7, 2013

Quote docs "And what of those saved during the tribulation? If to be saved and washed by the blood of Christ is to be delivered from the wrath of God then why will they have to continue in the tribulation since to even be in the tribulation is said to be expereincing the wrath of God? If they are saved shouldn't they automatically be removed from the tribulation since because of their salvation they are no longer subject to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)? Since they are no longer destined for wrath why will they have to endure the tribulation when those before them not subject to wrath were removed?"

Do you realize all the saints are killed by antichrist?

psalm1 Jul 7, 2013

"Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View"

HMMMMM,would it not be enlightening to find out what the scriptures say VS what some brethren 100 years ago thought or believed?

No offence but this seems a little desperate.

sermonindex Jul 8, 2013

So there will be a great trumpet that will sound and a resounding shout of the archangel that will occur but yet this coming of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will not be visible otherwise? I'm not trying to be a burr but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that this supposed coming will not be visible because the clouds of the air will cover and conceal Christ. And before the 1830s, where in church history was the second coming broken up into two phases - one was to be a "coming" for His church that would not be visible and then the second coming would be His "appearance"which would be visible to all? Out of all the studying and praying that went on over the centuries why was this concept of a two fold second coming, one phase hidden and invisible and the other phase visible for all to see, hidden from others until the 1830s? I'm not a know it all but and I know this question seems at times to annoy brethren in the pre-trib camp but in my opinion it's a very legitimate question to ask. docs

No doubt it is a legitimate question to ask! Unfortunately it is my intention to draw the thread not weave the garment. As for the return of the Lord Jesus no one should be surprised that it is both hidden and visible. The Lord walked amongst Israel in the flesh for three and a half years and yet they did not know Him. “Tell us plainly’ they said, “are you the Christ?” “I have told you, but you did not believe Me”.

With regard to the actual meaning of “in the clouds” it is no more than understanding that Christ is coming back to mount Zion. 2 Kings 19:31, Psalms 48:2, 48:11, Isaiah 4:5, 31:4, 37:32, Joel 2:32, Obadiah 17, 21, Hebrews 12:22 & Revelation 14:1

Isaiah chapters 24-27 have been described as Isaiah's "mini apocalypse." In encapsulated form these chapters contain the judgment of God on the nations, the earth reeling, God's protection and the final eschatological deliverance of Israel. In these chapters the resurrection of Israel's righteous is covered when corpses shall rise and those who lie in the dust shall awake (Isaiah 26:19) and this is when the Lord will swallow up death for all time (Isaiah 25:8). Paul uses this passage from Isaiah and quotes directly from it when he is speaking of the translation of the saints in I Cor 15:51-55. Since the resurrection of Israel's righteous occurs at the last day at the end of the age and coincides with the second coming of Christ then it's safe to assume on sound exegetical grounds that the translation of the Christian saints occurs at the same time. I Thess 4:13-18 therefore concerns the resurrection of the saints and their glorification and translation ("in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed") along with the living saints.   Why is Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 usually left out of discussions concerning the timing of the rapture? Especially Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 which coincides with Israel's final deliverance at the end of the age. In I Cor 15:51-55 Paul places the translation of the Christian saints of the Church at the same time as Isaiah 25:8 occurring - at the end of the age and not seven or three and a half years before. THEN (verse 15:54) is when the saying will come about that death has been swallowed up in victory. When is the THEN? When Israel's righteous dead and the Christian saints are raised and translated together.   (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) These scriptures show Israel's dead being raised at the last day. Paul undoubtedly connected the raising and translation of the Christian saints at the same time thereby eliminating any thought or notion of a two phased second coming.

6 The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.

7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
9 And it will be said in that day,
“Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us.
This is the Lord for whom we have waited;
Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.”

10 For the hand of the Lord will rest on this mountain,
And Moab will be trodden down in his place
As straw is trodden down in the water of a manure pile.

11 And he will spread out his hands in the middle of it
As a swimmer spreads out his hands to swim,
But the Lord will lay low his pride together with the trickery of his hands.
12 The unassailable fortifications of your walls He will bring down,
Lay low and cast to the ground, even to the dust.
26:1 In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:
“We have a strong city;
He sets up walls and ramparts for security.
2 “Open the gates, that the righteous nation may enter,
The one that remains faithful.
3 “The steadfast of mind You will keep in perfect peace,
Because he trusts in You.
4 “Trust in the Lord forever,
For in God the Lord, we have an everlasting Rock.
5 “For He has brought low those who dwell on high, the unassailable city;
He lays it low, He lays it low to the ground, He casts it to the dust.
6 “The foot will trample it,
The feet of the afflicted, the steps of the helpless.”
7 The way of the righteous is smooth;
O Upright One, make the path of the righteous level.
8 Indeed, while following the way of Your judgments, O Lord,
We have waited for You eagerly;
Your name, even Your memory, is the desire of our souls.
9 At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness;
He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness,
And does not perceive the majesty of the Lord.
11 O Lord, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it.
They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame;
Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies.
12 Lord, You will establish peace for us,
Since You have also performed for us all our works.
13 O Lord our God, other masters besides You have ruled us;
But through You alone we confess Your name.
14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise;
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
15 You have increased the nation, O Lord,
You have increased the nation, You are glorified;
You have extended all the borders of the land.
16 O Lord, they sought You in distress;
They could only whisper a prayer,
Your chastening was upon them.
17 As the pregnant woman approaches the time to give birth,
She writhes and cries out in her labor pains,
Thus were we before You, O Lord.
18 We were pregnant, we writhed in labor,
We gave birth, as it seems, only to wind.
We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth,
Nor were inhabitants of the world born.
19 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.

21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

2 In that day,
“A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 “I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will damage it,
I guard it night and day.
4 “I have no wrath.
Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle,
Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely.
5 “Or let him rely on My protection,
Let him make peace with Me,
Let him make peace with Me.”
6 In the days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will blossom and sprout,
And they will fill the whole world with fruit.
7 Like the striking of Him who has struck them, has He struck them?
Or like the slaughter of His slain, have they been slain?
8 You contended with them by banishing them, by driving them away.
With His fierce wind He has expelled them on the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore through this Jacob’s iniquity will be forgiven;
And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin:
(Is 25:6–27:9)

This is a very long passage of scripture but it includes your reference to Isaiah made over several posts. I am not sure why you believe that this passage confirms a post tribulation understanding corresponding to an end time completion of time and the resurrection of the dead as a single event. On reading this passage I can see a measure of time in which is included the marriage feast of the Lamb [For all peoples on this mountain (Zion)]. Peoples does not mean Israel according to the flesh it means all peoples according to faith in Christ including the faithful of Israel according to the flesh. It is both hidden from the nations and It includes the raptured [the hiding of a few in their rooms (In My Father’s house are many mansions)] as well as its meaning [Until indignation runs it course (saved from the wrath of God)] then the defeat of Leviathan [Satan] and the beginnings of the kingdom and the nations which are worthy entering into Jerusalem [The Sheep Nations]. It is a passage which alternates between Israel according to the promise and Israel according to the flesh. It is a hiding on the one hand [Rapture] and an avenging of the slaughter and persecution of Israel according to the flesh on the other. Through it Israel according to the flesh as well as those who are not raptured [hidden in their rooms] are perfected [last verse]. All of this takes place on the mountain [In the clouds] or from the mount. It does not take place in Heaven but on a mountain who's reaches are in the clouds. In short it is all predicated on the Lord's return. Yet it is not one instance of time and space but rather one return and several parts.

This is what I can see in these few verses.

Sidewalk Jul 8, 2013

Thank you amrkelly for the great wisdom and careful consideration I read between the lines of your postings.

Sometimes there is no substitute for the passing of years to help make ones thinking clear and free from the clutter that comes in when we are young and know everything. Why must wine languish in a dark barrel at 65 degrees for 6 or more years before it can be savored at its flavor peak? It was wet when it went into the barrel, and it is wet coming out. But it is not the same.

Oh I have been there with the pre-trib rapture. My grandfather was an old school Presbyterian minister who just knew he was going up before he died, and he held out to 102. Stubborn cuss...

Some years ago, as the wine of my life began to change in the dark barrel, I realized that my pursuit of end-time knowledge was purely that. I wanted details, to know the event sequences, to know the identities of the symbols and the players. I had some notebooks filled with elaborate schematics, but nothing valuable in my heart.

It began to dawn on me that I was not to seek knowledge, but Jesus. And I came to believe that the end times, like everything else, are based on the relationship. The old "Seek ye first the kingdom of God..."

Those who believe in religion seek knowledge, but those who seek Christ long for His presence and delight in His service. They don't feel any need to escape a corrupt world, but to live above its grasp in a relationship with a real live Jesus.

All of which, since I cannot know the details of how God will bring in His Kingdom, leads me to a simple principle for examining these ideas.

Any doctrine where the primary appeal is to the flesh is immediately suspect. Pre-trip rapture sits on the top of that list. Flying away does sound like fun, but being a useful witness in the cauldron of human suffering is what Jesus would do, and did.

He remains my mentor and example.

docs Jul 8, 2013

You wrote,

"Do you realize all the saints are killed by antichrist"?

I'm not sure the Bible ever speaks of every single saint being killed during the tribulation.

21 - for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

22 - "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. (Matt hew 24:21-22).

Unless those days had been cut short no life would be saved means that some life will be saved. And the days are cut short for the sake of the elect so this is a strong hint some of the elect will survive the tribulation period. Many won't but at least some will even if a small remnant.

32 - And it will come about that whoiever calls upon the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:32)

Joel paints a eschatological picture here and states some will escape and some will survive - (those who "escape" and even among the "survivors") so at least some of the saints will make it through.

Besides, some will have to be alive at the time of the second coming after the tribulation because the Scriptures state, "we who are "alive" and remain until the coming of the Lord" (I Thess 4:15). And then we who are "alive" and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...(I Thess 4:17). Living saints will have to be present for this to be fulfilled at the second coming. So some ot even many will likely survive although the number of their brethren killed or martyred will be many.

docs Jul 8, 2013

I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit thiough that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared.

sermonindex Jul 8, 2013

I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit thiough that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared. docs

No brother I think my posts are a little confusing and definitely misleading in a sense. I realise this clearly because there can be no getting away from the earlier posts I made which assert that the clouds are become a cover to the Lord's return in the first instance. This is classic pre tribulation teaching. In making this latter post where I say that "[w]ith regard to the actual meaning of “in the clouds” it is no more than understanding that Christ is coming back to mount Zion" it would appear that I am trivialising the assertion about clouds. The reality in my thinking was a matter of obedience in writing about Mount Zion, and then having been obedient, of necessity I would have to say something about the mountain being in the clouds. At the back of all of this lies one single idea or reality. God is not far from any one of us, He is right at hand. In Him we live and move and have our being. When we speak of a place in which God moves, as opposed to all things being in Him, we have gone from His presence to speak of His omnipotence in an instant. the Father and the Son are both of these things. We are in the Father and the Son and yet we can know the Father in His presence and the Son by His presence.

The Lord's return is of this order of events. It is in the end a physical visible reality. Yet it is preceded by a physical and invisible reality. It is a feast become a flight into a kingdom of nations. It is a veil which makes something hidden and a veil removed which is the meaning of visibility. It is the Father's House and the Kingdom of His Son. It is Mount Zion and it is the earth. It is in the clouds and it is on the clouds.

To answer your question about my being one who believes that the church is appointed to being removed before the tribulation. I can say plainly that I do in fact believe in two raptures. One before the Great Tribulation, and one when the veil is removed. I also believe (like the post apostolic Fathers) that the real and only meaningful tribulation when speaking about the end of this age is the only one spoken of in Revelation. It is a mystery and it is unfathomable by ordinary comprehension as though the natural mind could grope to find it's meaning. The following verses represent a tribulation for some saints yet this is just the beginning of the end.

11:1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands which stand before the Lord of the earth.5 And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.9 For three days and a half men from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up hither!” And in the sight of their foes they went up to heaven in a cloud.13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is where the Kingdom comes and in the first instance it is in the air. It is also when Satan is cast down it is also when the beast comes into visibility as a beast. This is when the wrath of God begins. Everything before this is an opportunity for repentance. Everything after this is a giving over to lust and delusion. Hereafter is 42 months of the rule of Satan. This is the Great Tribulation.

davidc Jul 9, 2013

Thank you Andrew for clarifying things a little, especially on the subject of Rev 11.

As the witnesses were killed at the end of their 42 month time of testimony, which you say will be a time of repentance before The Great tribulation, (which is a further three and a half years), Do you accept that their is, in total, a full seven years from the initial pseudo peaceful rise of the Antichrist until the Return of Christ to the earth; and does this not conform to dispensational teaching on Daniels last week?

I know, a complicated question

Your brother in Him

David