Universalism Experiences a Revival

When we think we have now heard everything here comes something else to bedevil Believers...it really is nothing new, but an old idea that has experienced a resurgence among people you thought were stable.

This is the belief of universalism and/or that there is no eternal hell fire.

I was doing an online search for a certain person's writings. This particular website had a lot of books online. As I scrolled down that list, I was surprised to find a fair number of books that taught this doctrine.

Embracing this doctrine was unheard of among conservative Mennonites but that is no longer the case. Right on its heels is the doctrine that homos are made this way and that one should cut them some slack.

I am not sure how accepting this doctrine of universalism has become among churches, but I suspect it is gaining a foothold because it denies eternal punishment for sins and that all will be eventually reconciled with the LORD Jesus.

I know faithfulness would have been greatly enhanced if people had been more careful what they chose to read...yet, on the other hand if there was ever a doubt as to the absoluteness of God's Word, one will always be vulnerable to deception regardless what form it appears in.

God bless.

The first thing I wanted to address is how Universalism ended up being more acceptable to Christianity and how it has infiltrated many congregation's thoughts.

It all comes down to the character of God. We all know God is love. And we know according to the Bible what real love looks like. So the question that started being asked was this: "Can a loving God really destroy people just because they didn't get this life exactly right?" And the immediate response was "Of course not! That would be evil!" However, God does love the World. But God also hates the unrighteous. And God, being perfect and just must execute justice. Not because He is bound by some cosmic law, but because that is exactly what He says He will do. And THAT is why Jesus Christ had to come. Because there was NO WAY we could have been justified by God without someone paying the penalty of our sin since God already said He would destroy the wicked. And we all know that the Bible says that there are none who are good. Not even one. That is why Christ was our propitiation. The wrath of God that we deserve was poured out on Him. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Now, that price was NOT payed for everyone (although the Gospel is offered to all), but only those who believe. Because justification is not applied to us unless we repent and believe the Gospel in faith.

The truth is, God must punish the wicked because He is loving and just. However, because they don't know God, they fashioned a god out of their own liking, made it unjust, and called it by the same name they call our God. And proclaim that this new, 'more-loving' god is really the God of the Bible. Which is not true.

The 2nd thing is this. I do believe that homosexuals are born that way. The Bible makes it clear we were all born in sins and homosexuality, as perverse as it is, is exactly how I would expect a lost person to act. That is why they need to be born again. Cause (and I heard this from Tony Evans. I didn't come up with it) they were not born right the first time.

A Christian should not be a homosexual. And I don't think it is written in their genes.

Perhaps it might be helpful to actually read one of these universal reconciliation books, such as the "Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbot. You certainly may not agree, but at least you can speak and think intelligently about their position. There is nothing to be afraid of.

Universalism essentially thinks God is the Great Apologizer. He is Santa Clause, the forgiver/ excuser, the ultimate liberal.

What is the word for sticking my finger toward my throat to induce a gagging vomit?

Our God saves people- people who are trying to destroy themselves in defiance of God. He came to seek and to save the lost, to warn them of Hell's final place of unrest, and to ensure justice for any who turn to Him along the path of sin.

It is so important to know what God can do, and what He can't do. If He were free to save anyone He wished to save, He would just do that. There would be no need for the sacrifice of His Son, that would be needless extra cruelty!

The price of that would be no justice for anyone, from a god with no character. And that is not how it works. God is the moral governor of the universe, and will never apologize to anyone for His mistakes because there aren't any.

What is Hell? Hell is the best God can do for those who want nothing to do with Him.

Be highly suspicious of any doctrine that makes its appeal to the mind of flesh rather than the spirit.

universalism denies the complete message of the cross.

the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us that believe it is the power of God.

universalism is a doctrine of the devil and denies the power of God. Any teaching that denies the power of God, we are warned and told to turn away from.

we are to hate every false way, so I would not subject myself to reading or listening to any false doctrine

Blessings...from brother rbanks

TMK,

I am not so sure that it is safe to read lit by people whose theology is contaminated with false doctrine. Their thinking process is contagious and will infect other areas of life, especially in how one looks at Scripture. You will think you are sound enough, strong enough that you can read this stuff and not be infected by it - I know there are a few who can, but they are rare. What will happen is that this mindset will lie in the corners of your mind and at a moment when you are not aware, the devil will slip a piece of that into your mindset...That devil is sly! Don't give him a quarter! Got enough devils to fight without reading stuff that was inspired by demons!

We must be ever so diligent! One needs to immerse himself/herself in the WORD, walk with the LORD allowing His spirit to be our guide. We do not have to educate our minds about the perversions out there. Just be familiar with the genuine and the counterfeit will become obvious.

The reality of universalism is that it appears so loving, hence its appeal! And who does not want to be loving?? This doctrine appeals strongly to those who have loved ones that spurned the gospel. It is tempting, I promise - been there! Don't be a vessel whom the devil will use to tempt another, please!

AMEN! just-in.

just-in wrote:

"There is no need of Christ if all will be saved (whether they want to be or not)."

Proponents of universal reconciliation would dispute this statement most emphatically.

That is why I recommend reading some of the leading authoris on this topic to at least get an idea of what they actually believe. The good scholarly ones strongly support their position with scripture and deal quite handily with all the objections you have raised.

I guess my uneasiness about the traditional view of hell (i.e. conscious eternal torment) is that if this view is correct, then the cosmic scorecard in regard to souls looks something like this:

Jesus: 3%
Satan: 97%

That should give anyone pause. Let's put it this way: I HOPE that the way hell has traditionally been taught is not correct. It may be, but I hope that it is not.

I guess my uneasiness about the traditional view of hell (i.e. conscious eternal torment) is that if this view is correct, then the cosmic scorecard in regard to souls looks something like this:

Jesus: 3%
Satan: 97%

That should give anyone pause. Let's put it this way: I HOPE that the way hell has traditionally been taught is not correct. It may be, but I hope that it is not.

______________

The Word does tell us that JESUS way is NARROW! and satan way is broad so that probably tells us something. Few will enter the narrow gate.

God bless
mj

TMK,

God and Satan are not locked in some epic battle for souls. If no one ever believed, God would still be just as Great, just as glorious, just as wonderful, etc as He has always been. God's glory and goodness is in no way dependent upon us. He doesn't need us. We all, by our own selves, are condemned to die. We DESERVE an eternity in hell. Why? Because we are children of wrath. God is Holy. What does that mean? It means that God is perfect and His standards are perfect and He is like nothing else in this universe. Totally set apart. There is nothing to which we can compare Him. Being perfect, God cannot just forgive everyone. Again, not because He is bound by some law, but because it is His nature not to leave the wicked unpunished. An eternity in Hell fits the crime, because we, in open rebellion, have rejected what ALL creation has cried out from the beginning--the glory of God. And it isn't that you have sinned here and there, it is that everything you do is sin. Everything. Why? Because we are corrupt and even our best attempts at doing good are always selfishly motivated and steeped in self-righteousness. But more than that, we were wicked from our mother's wombs. God will execute His justice against the wicked, against those who hate Him--which is everyone. However, God loves the world. He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. Yet, we MUST pay the price for our rebellion! So, God, being rich in mercy, sent His precious, only Son--Jesus Christ. Jesus gave Himself willingly to die in our place. And God poured out the cup of His wrath upon Christ on that cross! It was not the nails, it was not the wood, it was not the agony of physical pain that Jesus sweated great drops of blood over; it was the wrath of His Father. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. So God slaughtered His only Son (Isaiah 53 says it pleased Him to crush the Messiah), and forsook Him because He became sin. Jesus Christ served as a propitiation (a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God) for us who would believe. And on the 3rd day, Christ, defeating death, rose again so that all those who would believe would too be resurrected. He was the first among many bretheren to rise and we, who have believed, will rise as well when He comes for us. Thusly, all who believe upon Him will receive eternal life. What does John 3 say? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes is not condemned, but He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."

All who believe become justified and the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to us. We become righteous because Jesus Christ has already paid the penalty of our sins. He takes our hearts of stone and gives us hearts of flesh. He takes us, who are dead in our trespasses and sins and gives us life in Jesus Christ. We were not His people, but He has called us His people. We are adopted and become children of God. We all like sheep have gone astray, we have turned each one to his own way, but the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. We believe and so we live. Those who do not believe are dead. They will be cast into the lake of fire where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. Just as God made a distinction between His people who were slaves in Egypt and the Egyptians who enslaved them, so God will make a distinction between His people who have believed on the name of Jesus Christ and those who have not.

This is the Gospel. And even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you something other than what has been layed before us so clearly in the scriptures, let him be accursed.

Universalism defies this Gospel.

Havok-

You are preaching to the choir, at least to some extent. But thanks for the excellent presentation.

All I have suggested is that people actually do some reading on their own so they can get a clearer understanding.

There are three primary views of hell that **true** born again believers may hold:

1) Eternal conscious torment
2) Conditional Immortality (annihilationism)
3) Universal Reconciliation

To make blanket statements like "universalism defies this gospel" simply illustrates the fact that you do not truly understand what responsible and capable proponents of views 2 and 3 actually teach. We all know that word "gospel" means "good news." Is it good news that perhaps 99% of the souls that have ever lived will be consigned to everlasting torment? Why would God set up a system where this is the case, especially where He is "not willing that **any** should perish?" I think this question is important to consider.

I have done much reading of the main proponents of views 2 and 3, so it is frustrating to me to see that there is so little understanding of what they actually believe and how they support these views with scripture.

Whenever this topic is discussed, people's interpretations are driven by forgone theological conclusions, particularly their 'a priori' belief that only some will ultimately be saved. This belief may in fact be true, but it is worthwhile to examine whether the scriptures truly teach this to be true, and by trying to avoid interpreting scripture through our foregone conclusions. I realize this is exceedingly difficult, especially with a controversial topic like this. We find this to be true in discussions on eschatology. People like their own eschatology and don't like to be confronted with other legitimate possibilities.

The concept of "eternal fire" is entirely absent from the OT, and is only mentioned 3 times in the NT (twice in Matthew, once in Jude). The word translated as "eternal" is "ainios" and does not necessarily mean "eternal" as in "never ending." In Jude 7, it definitely does not mean this:

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of **eternal (ainios)** fire."

Was the fire that rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah eternal- as in everlasting? If so, then it would qualify as the chief wonder of the world --- fire that is eternal and unquenchable. But we know that this fire is no longer raining or burning.

Is. 34:8-10 (apocalyptic genre) reads:
"For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its ****smoke shall ascend forever***."

Compare this to another passage in the apocalyptic genre, Rev 14:11:

"And the smoke of their torment ***ascends forever and ever***."

Q: Is the smoke in Edom still ascending?

Tmk,

Are you leaning toward those who deny the power of God.

Universalism does not only teach that hell is not eternal but that all will be saved in the end anyway or come out all right.

Jesus said that "ye must be born again" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 1:12-13 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is dangerous heresy that denies the very words of Jesus. It gives people false hope and it sounds like it is having an effect on you.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, and Luke 20:38 all say that the OT does in fact speak to Eternal Life. There are many, many verses that say such. They may not say "eternal life" but it is not necessary when so clearly stated. Look at the last few verses of Psalm 17. David makes it clear that those who have there hope in only this life are foolish. But when David awakens, he will be satisfied with his likeness.

Matthew 25:46--"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Both use the exact same word. Is heaven only temporary? Most of the arguements made that hell is not eternal can be used to say heaven is equally uneternal. That isn't a proof in and of itself, but it does significantly weaken all arguments based on that kind of logic.

Revelation 20:10 makes it clear through the use of "night and day" that eternal does not just mean an age or eon. It goes on and on and on.

I have heard and read arguements for both Annihilationism and Universal Reconciliation. Both are false. They are generated from a misunderstanding of the Scriptures, a misunderstanding of the fallness of man, a misunderstanding of the holiness and righteousness of God and they both completely invalidate the need for Jesus Christ to come.

Just-in,

I was looking up those same verses the same time you were...lol

Hey Guys-

I dont this to be a thread about universalism.. trust me it would go on for the next 3 years. I visit another forum on occasion and there are discussions there on this topic at least that old.

Plus I now recall that this is not a subject the moderators want discussed here at sermonindex.

For the record, I am not a proponent of universal reconciliation.

But I will admit that I have a HUGE problem with the doctrine that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. If it is true, of course I will have to deal with it.

As a practical matter for myself, I don't plan on having to ultimately worry about which viewpoint is actually correct.