What is Christian Perfection?

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AbideinHim Jul 26, 2013

Stephen Kaung

http://www.christiantestimonyministry.com/tape-page.php?id=1664

Brother Stephen explains some misunderstandings concerning Christian perfection. Christian perfection is not that as Christians we will never sin again. Christian perfection is not the eradication of sin. Christian perfection is not for a certain class of Christians. The secret of Christian perfection is not to be found in man. It is found only in Christ, and God is the One that perfects us as we wait on Him and look to Him. The secret of Christian perfection is in the obtaining of the grace of God, and walking in the light that God has given to us.
This message is also printed in booklet form under the title: Be Ye Therefore Perfect.

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ginnyrose Jul 26, 2013

Christian perfection has generated a LOT of posts, words on this forum. And I suppose it will continue to do so as long as this forum exists. Generally I refrain from commenting on doctrinal issues because too many times, IMHO, people resort to splitting hairs and this wearies me and I believe this is something males are better skilled at then females.

Anyhow.

I would like to share how this has been explained to me many years ago and I have seen nothing since then that would have indicated it was erroneous.

Paul was preaching to the Jews and in his sermon (recorded in Acts 13) he referred to 'the sure mercies of David'. (v.34). What does the phrase 'sure mercies of David' refer to? David experienced mercy for a sin that under the law required the death penalty. No two ways about it: there was no sacrifice that could be offered to atone for it. None. But when he was confronted by Nathan about his sin, he admitted it, did not hedge or make excuses for it. God accepted his repentance and spared him the death penalty. This act is commonly understood as 'the sure mercies of David'.

David also had the reputation as a man after God's own heart, hence his willingness to acknowledge his sin. This was an outgrowth of his walk with the LORD. David was an example of how a person walks with God and when he sins will acknowledge it, repent of it and take the consequences with grace and humility. When we do likewise we will attain 'Christian Perfection'.

This is how I understand Christian perfection: agreeing with God with no excuse, or compromise but deliberate obedience.

M

murrcolr Jul 26, 2013

Quote: This is how I understand Christian perfection: agreeing with God with no excuse, or compromise but deliberate obedience.

Yes and Amen........Absolute surrender

The perfect heart says at all times, "Speak, Lord, for your servant heareth. Show me the path and I will walk in it."

The perfect heart cries out with David, "Search me, O God, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me"

The perfect heart is after more than security or a covering for sin! It seeks to be in His presence to have communion!

Many believers quote only one-half of this verse: "And the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleansesth us from all sin" 1 John 1:7.

Read all of it, read it carefully: "If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as He is in the light... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin" 1 John 1:6-7

sermonindex Jul 26, 2013

AbideinHim

Hi, I have listened to the sermon on the link you gave, but was only able to bear it for 55 minutes and don't know whether I can stand any more of the errors from the speaker.

If anyone wants to dispute any teaching, the least they can do is to do some studying and have a reasonable grasp of what they contend against. The speaker has not done this, and instead sets up a series of straw men, and then goes on to knock them down. This behaviour is despicable in a preacher especially one who sounds as though he is of an advanced age.

Most serious of all the straw men he sets up, is that perfection can be found in man's own efforts. No holiness teaching has ever said this or implied it. It is by grace alone. Making this fundamental error makes me think that he is deliberately twisting the truth rather than exercising ignorance.

So the other errors he makes are that

1. No man can match the sinlessness of Christ who never sinned.

2. Once perfect, means that a man can never sin again.

3. The call to perfection is for a few not for all.

Seriously wrong.

1. Holiness teaching says that all men have sinned and must depend on Christ to deliver them from their sinfulness.

2. Men do occasionally fall from it as seen in the characters in the scripture in fact it is normal. He uses this fact to try to prove his point without wisdom.

3. The call is for all and I have never heard it be taught otherwise in fact this is the greatest indicement towards the unsanctified.

He uses the example of a baby wanting fed through the night as an example of a baby believer who still sins calling it 'fleshy'. He has never studied the needs of a baby either who will suffer serious damage if not fed every four hours or so and who was given a loud cry by God to enable it to survive.

He also seriously contradicts himself by saying the sin nature is unemployed rather than eradicated, not understanding what that terms means, yet unemployed means out of action just as much.

As with many others, he invents his own interpretation of what the doctrine says.

I could go on but this man is seriously uneducated and without principle.

C

Christinyou Jul 27, 2013

Back to basics. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, where perfection is required to reign for those that abide there.

So who are those that are perfect? Only those that have the Perfect Spirit of Christ, the soul-mind complete in the walking in the Spirit, the body of flesh and bone, just like the body of Christ, where Christ is seated on the heavenly Throne with the Father.

Even though the body is quickened by the Holy Spirit sealed in the believer, the body still contains blood. This blood must be shed that the body be changed to flesh and bone, just like the Body of Jesus Christ. Then and only then can perfection and holiness be complete in the believer. We can only reckon ourselves holy, looking forward to the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus by faith, He who is the only One that is perfect and holy, as we know it from scripture.

Romans 8:12-14 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We are perfect in spirit, because the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. WE are becoming perfect in soul-mind, by our mind chanter the Holy Spirit that is sealed in us. Are we perfect in flesh and blood? Not until resurrection and changing in the twinkling of and eye for those left alive.

Romans 8:21-23 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So can we be totally sanctified? Not yet. Can we be totally righteous? Only in Spirit. Can we be full of totally holy wisdom? Some day. Are we totally redeemed?
Only by the promise of God in Christ Jesus. That is why we must only reckon ourselves Perfect and Holy, because of Christ Jesus that is birthed in our spirit and the Holy Spirit is in us forever. Not just with us. Our only hope of Glory is by the Christ that is in us.

The body is dead because of sin, we are alive only because of Christ in us the hope of glory.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

And who is our righteousness? WE are not, but we are.

Can I be righteous of anything in my self by what I do or don't do?

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

He is my only glory: Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is ((((((Christ in you,))))) the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Am I holy and righteous? Only by the Christ that lives in me.

Even in Heaven my righteousness and justification will be only because of Jesus Christ and His finished work.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

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murrcolr Jul 27, 2013

Quote: We can only reckon ourselves holy.

Quote: We are perfect in spirit, because the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. WE are becoming perfect in soul-mind, by our mind chanter the Holy Spirit that is sealed in us.

Quote: So can we be totally sanctified? Not yet.

Quote: That is why we must only reckon ourselves Perfect and Holy

This is what I see when I read your post

Do we make excuses for the flesh? … Yes as we can only reckon ourselves holy

Can the flesh be crucified? …. No as we are becoming perfect in soul-mind

Can I be sanctified? … Not yet (you must wait until you die)(So your saying death is my savior?)

Can we be Holy? …. No we can only reckon ourselves Perfect and Holy

C

Christinyou Jul 27, 2013

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Body, soul and spirit.

This is what you wrote;

This is what I see when I read your post

"""Do we make excuses for the flesh? … Yes as we can only reckon ourselves holy"""

No we crucify the flesh in Christ. Yet my flesh still lives and is dead in sin, quickened to contain the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit and God abiding with Christ in us.

"""Can the flesh be crucified? …. No as we are becoming perfect in soul-mind"""

I am crucified with Christ, yet I live. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me and the life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God.

"""Can I be sanctified? … Not yet (you must wait until you die)(So your saying death is my savior?)"""

Death is the curse of sin, Jesus Christ is my Savior.

"""Can we be Holy? …. No we can only reckon ourselves Perfect and Holy"""

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which (((((shall)) ((be revealed in us.)))))

Then revealing the perfection that is attained when we are resurrected with out new bodies. because of the Christ in you (now) the Hope of Glory.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

By His working in me mightily, I labor striving according to His working which is the only thing that reckons me holy.

In Christ: Phillip

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Sidewalk Jul 27, 2013

Sandra has nailed it...again!

There will probably always be another thread on this topic tomorrow, with men splitting hairs of doctrine while women sigh and muse to themselves that maybe they should go paint something.

In the many laws of carts and horses, cart following horse usually works best. As Jesus said, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these other things will be added to you."

Why do we waste time seeking "sinless perfection" rather than the presence of Christ? Actually, I can tell you why. We love religion because it is an easy substitute for relationship.

Religion is all about systems that work together to satisfy intellectual curiosities, and alleviate guilt. Religion is all about keeping God at bay, satisfied with our behavioral performance...so that we can feel free to do as we wish with the rest of the time.

But these things fade away when we pursue Him. Our behavior is no longer shaped by the rules we make up but by the desire to please Him. We do righteousness because we learn instinctively what pleases Him and what does not. Suddenly, we detest that which we know He detests, and love what He loves.

I just do not worry about my personal sin. While I do abhor it, I have from Christ a new character quality of a repentant heart. Because of the relationship, recognizing sins and sinful attitudes is almost instantaneous. I don't have to go weeks and months, or wait til some skillfull preacher finds me in the back of a dusty church to confront that sin. He lets me know, and fellowship is broken until my knees hit the floor. I really don't like the time it takes to get me back, or the depression that comes with trying to kick against His goads.

Jesus spoke so well that the whole law and prophets could so easily be summed up with the establishment of the One Great Relationship.

Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. He never suggested that we should seek after Sinless Perfection...because He knew a better way.

sermonindex Aug 9, 2013

Sidewalk wrote : "Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. He never suggested that we should seek after Sinless Perfection...because He knew a better way."

This is exactly what perfection is, loving God with the whole heart (and neighbour). Being commanded to do it, is the instruction of the Lord to seek perfection. You are confusing perfection teaching with legalism.

To love God with the whole heart means that we will desire that nothing we do or think will be in disobedience to Him not because we wish to be proud but because we will do anything to avoid anything coming between us and Him in order to be pleasing to Him. He promises to give us the ability to do so.

sermonindex Aug 9, 2013

Brenda you certainly play around with a lot of ideas on what entire sanctification is. Sometime you say it is sinless perfection and then when this is challenged as an impossibility, albeit a godly desire, you say that love of God and ones neighbour is perfection. Is there a believer anywhere who does not know that loving God is a perfect thing to do? If you speak of loving God with all of your heart then you are saying no more than God ask of us. Yet even God knows that when a man loves his wife or children he is loving himself. How do you reconcile the overstatement or emphasis as though a man ought to neglect his wife and children? And before you tell me by way of yet another quotation I would ask you to consider your hero George Fox. He had no children and hardly knew his wife as one would recon these things. Moreover there are plenty of men who actually escape the responsibility of loving their wives and children by claiming to love God more. This is a complete deception.

The command is to love God with your whole being and to love your neighbour as you love yourself. The outworking of loving God is divided in visibility and unified in purpose and substance. It is not a mystical thing. It is an intensely practical thing to love God, as to do so is to please Him in all things and not simply in doctrines and forms of words. Those who disregard their own realities and press others with a mystical one had better be ready to be challenged about their own walk!

sermonindex Aug 9, 2013

Andrew wrote :"Sometime you say it is sinless perfection and then when this is challenged as an impossibility, albeit a godly desire, you say that love of God and ones neighbour is perfection."

The only way that a man can love God with his whole heart is when he has been entirely sanctified. The two are inseparable.

A man who loves God this way will never put his children or wife before God or even in line with God, though he will put them before himself. If it is his children or Christ he will go with Christ.

I do not deny that families have been neglected by so called holy men, there are many who make false claims.

Fox married his wife in later life for them both and the children were hers not his, and wherever you are getting your information from, I don't see a problem as she was the one they had closeness to. Nor do I see anywhere that she was neglected, as she was not left at home looking after young children.

I don't have heroes and disagree with Fox over certain things. I do consider him to be one the greatest saints though.