63 Questions for those who oppose holiness

Healingwaters wrote:Define "Complete Repentance" and "Holiness" in what you think they mean.KarlVery good questions Karl. This is the real issue. What irritates me about many a "holiness preacher" (which I consider myself to be) is that many throw around words like repentance and holiness without defining them to their hearers. Even worse, when repentance is defined as "stopping doing the wrong thing and starting to do the right thing" and holiness and "never doing anything wrong". This is a very imbalanced way of looking at it, and although these are greatly held up, due to many a "revivalist" (eg, Finney, Wesley, etc...) stressing "meathods" over "sovereignity", in similar ways that atheists stress "science" vs "religion". In both cases, one does not negate the other, in any way shape or form...except in thses circumstances. Science will only contradict true christian doctrine, when a false theory (eg, evolution or chaos theory). Meathods only contradict sovereignity when there twisted in a way that negates grace. Although the preacher will rarely admit this is the case (as with the evolutionary-deist who claims that "God could have done it that way"), they do this by claiming that man can be perfect, via will power.One example of this kind of thing, is Ray Comfort's denial of the definition of repentance as being a "change of mind" (which is J Edwin Orr's definition). Although I have a great deal of respect for Comfort, and his teachings have exposed a great deal of error in my own theology, this statment is incorrect (although his sentiments are true). Repentance in Greek is metanoia, which is broken down as meta(change)noia(mind). Literally to repent is to change one's mind. However, both Jesus and John the Baptist stressed the necessity of of producing "fruit meet for repentance", ie if you ruly change your mind about something, then your behaviour will change.In contrast, Finney's sermon "Faith" stresses the fact that meathods are useless without faith, although Revival Lectures seem to present the opposite. Wesley stressed that true Arminianism does not deny the sovereignity of God, although the Calvinists claim the Arminus did deny it.It seems that "grace" vs "holiness", is the modern day equivelent to the Calvin/Ariminus debate. Although I admit that there are many a "grace" preacher that appears to be presenting "licence", there are also alot of "holiness" preachers that are really presnting "legalism". It has nothing to do with the intentions of the preacher (Jesse, from what I've heard of your preaching, and read of your articles, I understand that your not legalistic), but more that of ignoring "small issues" that imply "big problems", or slight errors that can lead people astray. An excellent preacher that toes the line between "grace"/"holiness" is Paris Reidhead (you have to go beyond "10 Shekels and a Shirt" to see it though). May I recomend my article Righteous Submission vs Zealous Obedience to Principle for a more detailed view on this issue.

One example of this kind of thing, is Ray Comfort's denial of the definition of repentance as being a "change of mind" (which is J Edwin Orr's definition). Although I have a great deal of respect for Comfort, and his teachings have exposed a great deal of error in my own theology, this statment is incorrect (although his sentiments are true). Repentance in Greek is metanoia, which is broken down as meta(change)noia(mind). Literally to repent is to change one's mind. However, both Jesus and John the Baptist stressed the necessity of of producing "fruit meet for repentance", ie if you ruly change your mind about something, then your behaviour will change.I don't know Ray Comfort's work but I think I can guess what is happening.'metanoia' in Greek does mean a change of mind, but 'metanoia' in the Septuagint, the old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible was used to translate the Hebrew word 'nacham' and 'nacham' means much more than to 'change the mind'. It means, literally, to sigh or sob. So when a Hebrew used the word 'metanoia' he was not using it in the narrow Greek sense but with all the history of the word 'nacham' behind it.If you want a definition of repentance, Christ has one. Mat 12:41 KJV The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. So now all you need do is read Jonah 3, find out how the men of Nineveh behaved, and you will have Christ's definition of 'repentance'.Or if you want a short cut, you could listen to this.

An elder at my last church defined true repentance as: "when you have the chance to commit that sin again-- you don't." Repentance begins with a change of heart, to where one now hates sin instead of loving it, and fulfills itself in righteous living.

According to your theology, how much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven?We must remember that God is not interested in out theolgy or our thoughts on what He does or doesn't do. He wants us to take on His holiness and righteousness that comes to us in spirit through Christ.We are not holy so Christ is our holiness, we are unrighteous therefore Christ is our righteousness. We can't fully comprehend the meaning of those terms without invoking the ministry of the Holy spirit because those are things attainable by the Him because they are foreign to us. All the questions you ask are good ones. The spirit will instruct me on which ones to address:What is meant by Jesus when He said "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect"? Matt 5:48Christ meant exactly that, we should be perfect as God is. Now how is that attained when we live in an imperfect state? It all stems from the Christ, Christ IS our perfection. We must put Him on in spirit, and become perfect in spirit by allowing the Holy Spirit to do as God desires. The flesh is corrupted and there is no perfecting that. The flesh rebels against God. The perfection Christ speaks of comes from us being perfected in spirit (not flesh) and walking continually in that spirit.Your questions are easily answered by the Holy Spirit's ministering and that is what is required to get the true answers. Interpretations from the mind of man which is carnal can't help you or anyone else for that matter interpret what is spirit. That requires a revelation from God IN THE SPIRIT. Seek the spirit rather than our counsel bro. If the spirit does empower one or more of us to instruct you or anyone else then it will be so.

KrispyKrittr wrote:I'm all for holiness.... who wouldnt be?As for preachers defining for their congregation what that means, my question would be... why dont the individual Christians have enough horse-sense to figure it out for themselves? Do they not have Bibles? Why do we depend so much on our preachers to tell us what we need to know? Most everyone in the US has a Bible... maybe if it was read more often there would be a better understanding of holiness.No one can live a holy life and not be in the Word on a daily basis. It's like trying to build a house without any plans.KrispyWe should all read our bibles often, but we should be weary of the spirit in which we do it. Sometimes I read it to get information to prove a point to someone and make myself feel bigger as I'm sure we all have at some point, let's be honest here and not goof off on this. If the purpose of reading the bible is anything short of glorifying God then it is better to leave it alone. I know I'm on a soapbox about the Spirit but this is what God is placed on me heavily to speak on without ceasing until He says to stop. Brethren, I beseech you all to seek God's spirit concerning the Word. The pharisees knew the scriptures better than anyone else in their time but Christ referred to them as vipers and had no good things to say about them. One can know the bible back and forth and be just like the pharisees, lost. Of all the people they should have known Christ when they saw Him come. The spirit in which they learned the scriptures was one of self-glorification rather than God-glorification and we must not fall into this trap lest we lose our souls. The words of the bible have power but only when we seek the source of their power, the spirit of God. Without that the bible means nothing. The bible is like a lightbulb, if it is not plugged into the power source it can give off no light. Holiness and righteousness and such things are foreign to us and we can't experience them without the spirit of God because that is the source of these things.I'm not saying we should cease to read the bible. I'm saying we should read the bible not as a daily ritual but according to the instruction and compelling of the spirit. Anything outside of thay is fruitless. I mean if reading the bible was all it took, the world would be a much better place, but that is not where the power is as evidenced by the state of affairs. The anger God feels now is not because we're not praying, or searching the word, or evangelizing or any of those other things, it is the SPIRIT in which we do these things, most of the time we seek to glorify ourselves rather than God and God simply will NOT HAVE THAT. He is angry people and us as saints will be judged most harshly if we dont's shape up and seek Him in spirit and truth. We have substituted commentaries, books, theologies, ideologies and so on for the spirit of God. Now some of these commentaries etc are inspired by the spirit of GOd no doubt but again they are like a lightbulb and without us plugging it in to the powersource, they can give no light.I beseech us all to SEEK GOD EARNESTLY IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH WHILE THERE IS TIME FOR IT IS FAST RUNNING OUT.

Hi Jesse,Being a repentance and holiness minister myself, I have to ask:Do you feel that if a person transgresses their conscience and commits a sin they are lost until they repent and ask forgiveness? If the answer to that is Yes then my second question is:What sin(s) will damn the soul? Would the answer to that be "anything that you know to do good and are not doing it" or "whatsoever you do that is not of faith" or serious sins that war against the sould auch as the list in Galatians 5? If the answer is, "'any' known sin makes me once again a sinner" I would have to ask:Are you saying that transgression of the Law is what constitutes sin, therefor working on Sabbath and eating Pork is sin; or that things like:Smoking cigarettesChewing skoalWatching TVWearing jeans (women)etc. etc. You see, holiness has a very different definition that what we may apply to it. Finney believed salting your food was a sin if you did it so it would taste better. He believed fishing and hunting for sport was sin. He talked frequently about women dressing as sin. I am quite sure he would have considered a game of gulf as sin. Any thoughts?God Bless,-Robert

First, I believe that the new covenant promises freedom from sin's dominion - that as we humble ourselves, God gives us grace - and in grace we are delivered from sin's rule in our life. I believe that this deliverance is experienced according to faith - that is, the greater the faith, the greater the deliverance from sin's rule.So I am not opposed to holiness. I do however wonder at your second question - "How much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven?"The answer would depend on how one was justified, and whether one were justified or not.When some religions teach that a man is justified by faith through grace, they really mean that through faith a man receives grace to be personally righteous - and that their own (grace infused) righteousness is what actually saves them.In this system, "the righteousness of Christ" is interpretted as "my own (experiential) righteousness which I obtained through faith."Under this system then, the answer would be no sin - that is, even one sin would thrust the person out of righteousness, and back into the ranks of the damned. Other systems teach that the believer is justified by Jesus Christ's own personal righteousness accounted to them when they exercise saving faith in Christ. That whatever personal holiness they possess or fail to possess does not in any way affect their status as God's child.In this scenario, the purpose of holiness is not to justify the believer - since Christ has justified the believer already - rather holiness is the natural condition of a heart in fellowship with God. If we love Christ, we will want to fellowship with Christ - and light has no fellowship with darkness - so we will go about trying to be holy - and fail, because it cannot be done in the flesh. Eventually, if we are serious enough, we will seek God with all our heart - and we will find him. The seeking process isn't just reading the bible - it is ascending the holy hill - and to do that one must have clean hands. Eventually the believer figures it out - he has to truly repent, but is unable to do so in his own power - so he begins to turn to Christ in faith to be delivered from sin's rule. As he continues to seek, knock, and ask - he progresses towards his goal - and eventually, if he faints not, he enters into that promised rest.That being the case, no amount of sin would disqualify him from heaven - but the least amount of sin would disqualify him from fellowship with Christ.The Spirit - in this second model, was forshadowed by the shekinah of glory in the wilderness that led the Israelites to the promised land. The Spirit convicts and moves the believer to pursue rest. Not every believer finds that rest - but every believer is saved.So I wonder in which way you meant it - that is, do you suppose that a person is justified by personal righteousness or by a judicial declaration by God?Dan/\\/\\/\\

The pharisees knew the scriptures better than anyone else in their time but Christ referred to them as vipers and had no good things to say about them. One can know the bible back and forth and be just like the pharisees, lost. Of all the people they should have known Christ when they saw Him come. The spirit in which they learned the scriptures was one of self-glorification rather than God-glorification and we must not fall into this trap lest we lose our souls. The words of the bible have power but only when we seek the source of their power, the spirit of God. Without that the bible means nothing. The bible is like a lightbulb, if it is not plugged into the power source it can give off no light. Ironman-this is the best thing I've read in a while! Thank you for putting that into perspective.I also have questions about what we consider "sin" and how we can be "perfect".I mean, are we to say that we are never going to be angry at our brother or friend, are we never going to have hidden pride in our hearts that comes out in some hideous form (unbeknownst to us until it is too late).Maybe I am alone here, but I have to admit that I know I sin EVERYDAY. I don't mean the obvious sins that i used to do or that others do- but my heart is still full of sinfullness that I don't even know is there.Am I to say that because I woke up in a bad mood this morning and yelled at my kids to hurry up and eat their breakfast- I am not going to heaven? Or because I thought myself better than someone else, more holy than another (when I am not really at all) and just realized it- that it was PRIDE in my heart making me believe that- that I am not going to heaven.No one is going to "act" perfect. No one is capable of having absolutely no fault.I know that as we live in Him, that we can overcome more and more as our life goes on. The more we live in Him and not in our flesh, then yes, we can live more and more towards His perfectness. Can anyone say that they never have a bad or wrong thought?can anyone here say that they are free from all pride?Can anyone here say that they have not gotten angered with someone (not Godly anger) in the past few days?can anyone say that thy have had self-control in every area of their life today? (food consumption, not being lazy, doing all their work to the best of their ability)?What about sins of omission? what about the things that we should do and do not do?hmmmmmmmmm.....many questions and more just keep coming. i think you could eventually feel like killing yourself jsut trying to keep up with all that you are "supposed to do" and "not supposed to do" and we could spend the rest of lives trying to be perfect and we would live one very miserable life - "centered on yourself" "what am "I" doing right or wrong? Wouldn't it be better to not focus so much on "self" all the time and give our time to others?I am all for obedience to the Lord. I am all for overcoming sin (especially habitual sin) I have overcome many things in my own walk with the Lord- thank the Lord!!! And I know He will continue to help me overcome in other areas as well. But I know that I will not be perfect until the day I see Him face to face.If we were perfect now, what need would we have of Him? Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without Christ.

Hi Chanin, What about sins of omission? what about the things that we should do and do not do?You also make great points. Understand that I have a great zeal for holiness. But I am under no illusions as to having to stand before God in a 'sinless state.' There are 613 comandments + the teachings of Jesus. If we are talking about 'conscious sin' I would have to say- yes we can walk in freedom from that. But that is a million miles from TRUE holiness. It is merely what God requires. The Just shall live by faith. James said that pure religion was to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction AND to keep ourselves unspotted of the world. There are 248 "do's" that the Jews extracted from the Torah beginning in Genesis. The first is "Be fruitful and multiply." Some may say, "Well, I don't want kids!" Then according to the Law of the Jews, they just broke commandment #1. Finney would say you are sinning because you smoke a pipe, the Jews would say that command #1 is to bear children. Most holiness I see represented makes me want to just start running from the people and I am pretty radical by a radical persons standards (I speak as a fool). None of those things save me. I am never more saved than when I realize my insufficiency before God and "call upon the name of the Lord" for help. The Pharisees looked up to heaven thanking God they were not like those wretched sinners. What said the Lord to them? The most upset Jesus got on earth, in my opinion, was directed at religious folk who had no mercy. He called them hypocrites! They knew they were not holy and yet they still pretended to be. Have a zeal for 'holiness'? Nay- I would say rather have a zeal to delight in the Lord. Delight thyself in Him! And He will make you as holy as He will. God Bless,-Robert

There is a lie out there that says one can be saved from hell without being saved from sin. There is a lie out there that says one can be saved by believing in Christ, yet never be a disciple. There is a lie that out there that says holiness is optionial...2 Thes 2:13 ...God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Here is a link to an article on this site by John Wesley on Christian Perfection.

I am never more saved than when I realize my insufficiency before God and "call upon the name of the Lord" for help. The Pharisees looked up to heaven thanking God they were not like those wretched sinners. What said the Lord to them? Amen!This is what the Lord has shown me as well. When we look at people (ourselves included) when we are in this state of "o, i am not worthy, I am nothing apart from God- only He is Holy and righteous and good beyond compare"-- that is when I see revival!Personal revival, corporate revival happens from brokeness and repentance and our seeing how He is ALL and we are not.When I have felt this way, when I have seen others this way- this blesses my soul. There is a group of men from Purelife who come to our church once a month (they visit 3 other churches the other sundays) but they come all together because they are staying away from home at a facility where they can (by God's grace) overcome their addiction to pornography and lust. They are (for the most part) already christians- but they are broken. They know how unworthy they are and how they NEED HIM.You should see these guys singing and crying (w/ literal tears)out to God during their worship. You can just feel the air of brokeness about them that brings in the presence of God. These guys are not perfect, they have much more road to cover, but their hearts are so ready for God to fill them up and to turn them toward the straight and narrow path.I cannot help but cry the whole time just watching them. You can see the hunger to know Him and to turn from their old ways.The Lord is near to the brokenhearted. I am glad because that is my state much of the time. :)In Him, chanin

I also have questions about what we consider "sin" and how we can be "perfect".I mean, are we to say that we are never going to be angry at our brother or friend, are we never going to have hidden pride in our hearts that comes out in some hideous form (unbeknownst to us until it is too late).When we make a resolution that "I'm not going to do this any more" we place ourselves under the letter of the law which kills. We should place ourselves under grace which is afforded us by the blood of christ. See we can't under our own power stop ourselves from sinning, think about it, how many resolutions have you or I kept after we made them? The grace of God is sufficient for us, the spirit of God will empower us to do God's work and the more time we spend doing that, the less there is time to sin.Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without ChristOf course! look at the pharisees they followed all the rules but Christ had nothing good to say about them. We should seek Christ in all things. If we were perfect now, what need would we have of Him?The perfection is in the spirit. the natureof the flesh is to rebel against God and all that is holy and God seeks us to be perfect in Spirit because He is spirit. The flesh will never be holy and perfect as God wants our spirits to be, which is why He requires us to worship in spirit and truth.

I am not by any means promoting salvation by works or that a man has the power to save himself through his works. What I am saying is that there is power in the blood of Jesus, there is power in the grace of God. There is more power in them then some believe. Not only does the blood have the power to make you righteous in the sight of God, but it has the power to actually make you righteous. God is able to save a man to the uttermost. This is not salvation by your own righteousness, it is salvation by the righteousness of Christ. The salvation of God does not merely make you look holy on the outside to God, but it is a deep cleansing and change of the inner man. It is cleaning the inside of the cup, not merely the outside. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Being born-again by the Spirit of God is not merely being born-again in the eyes of God, but is actually having your entire life, not merely part of your life changed. Salvation and sanctification go hand in hand. They are married and have never been divorced. That is why the bible says "repent and believe". There indeed is all power in that blood for through it we are saved and we can know God in an unprecedented way.