Why Do We Seem to Treat Holy Spirit with Less Reverence than the Father and the Son? ...

This thread is inspired by Ironman's threads ...Today's God is far too small ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4944&forum=35The Spirit ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4988&forum=36&4And inotof's ...Basic Purpose of The Holy Spirit ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5012&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=GoThose 3 threads got me to thinking ... Maybe the reason God does'nt seem to do the same things He did (thru men) even right after Pentecost is because we've discounted God the Holy Spirit in His dispensation ... The Law (OT) was the Father's dispensation of His part in His plan via Israel ... We all got that down pretty well for we know that the point of the OT was to point to the coming of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ ...The Gospels (NT) were Jesus' dispensation of continuing the Father's plan by His becoming our propitiaion to the Law's fulfilment, whereas upon His rising from the dead the Father placed all power in His hand and our attentions shifted from the Father and became more focused on Him as our loving Mediator and Savior ... And even tho we know that the Father (our Source) is still calling the shots, God the Son (our Provision) became preiminent , but before He left Jesus (our Provision) pointed to anothers coming ... the Father had sent Jesus for the continuation of His three part plan for the ages, now Jesus would send us Holy Spirit (our Power) for that same continuence ... What did Christ say ...John.16:[7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:[12] I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.And what did the Disciples/believer's do after Christ final departure from this earth? ... On the day of Pentecost 120 found themselves in an upper room waiting for Christ promise of Power from on high, and the Bible tells us "suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance ... Acts.2: 2-4 ... And 3,000 got saved, marking the beginning of the dispensation of God the Power, and the beginning of the Church Age in earnest ... Did the early Church hold on for dear life to this new found Power as believer's had done with Jesus? ... Did the early Church continually seek after this new found Power as they once had pressed toward Jesus? ... Initially i'd say they did due to the miracles Holy Spirit was able to work thru those early believers, but eventually that seemed to wane as the original Apostles of Christ were martyred and the early Church had no more physical representatives of the movement birthed by Jesus Christ of Nazareth ... i think the early church soon fell into what so many saints today have totally secumbed to, a total fixation on Jesus (the Provision) at the marginalization of the Father (our Source) and the lamentable near exclusion of Holy Spirit (our Power) as God in His own proper authority ... For an example most Bibles today list erroneously in my view: "The Acts of the Apostles" ... When in fact it is "The Acts of the Holy Spirit" - via the Apostles ... The Apostles didn't utilize the Holy Spirit to the salvation of 3,000, but vice-versa ... No saint has any real power in this dispensation of Holy Spirit's work without realization that He's God with us RIGHT NOW!, has been so since the day of Pentecost, and should be revered as such ...To many saints refer to Holy Spirit as an "it" or "something" as in the phrase "something told me to go over and witness to that person), when He's a He in the same sense as Father and Son ... He has feelings, and we grieve Him when we as believer's don't acknowledge Him in His proper authority ... He likes to be talked to, and sought after by any believer who longs to be used of Christ to the lifting Him up as the Lamb of God so that all men should be drawn to Him, because it's impossible for any of us to do so without His power ... Lifting up the Lamb via Christ Church as His instrument, is the Doves primary reason and responsibilty in being here ... But how can we be sensitive to the grief we cause Him when so many of us delegate Him to an "it" or a "something"? ... We've all got to wake up to God's own divine pattern in the Godhead! ... The Father pointed to Jesus the Son so that He could come here and point us back to His Father ... Jesus came here and pointed to Holy Spirit that He would come Here and point us back to Jesus! ... Without our acknowledgement of and surrender to His oversight of us individually and as a collective Body we'll never see miracles wrought thru us, not even the miracle of drawing a multitude to conviction as in the beginning of the Church on Pentecost, for we will have relegated ourselves to, if we've not already come dangerously close to "having a form of Godly devotion but denying the Power (God the Holy Spirit) thereof ... Many early saints because they were Jews found it easy to believe in the Father because He was the God of their history (by the way which is where a lot of modern believer's place the Father) ... They believed in Jesus for even tho He was now gone He at least had a physical track record of being here so He continued to be their total fixation ... But Holy Spirit came in like an invisible wind (save for His then visible cloven flames), was then and still now is that invisible wind that requires pure faith on which to count on Him as the Guide, and rightful Overseer of our own individual lives, and that of the entire Church, and i think our faith in His capacity as such is why the Church of Christ is so sick ... If we don't even believe in Holy Spirit enough to present our own bodies to Him as His living temple, what chance do we have collectively of housing Him when we get together in our own collective congregations? ... How can we say we truly honor God, who is One in Three, by adoring Father and Son, while discounting Holy Spirit? Please saints ... If any of you are vague as to just who God the Holy Spirit is, why He's here since the day of Pentecost, and what that means to you as far as indwelling, baptism, filling and gifting ... Then i pray that you will seek out knowledge concerning Him ... You're gonna be surprised of His personality ... If you have a good study Bible (like my Ryrie) go to the back of it and familiarize yourself (looking up the scriptures) with "The Attributes of The Holy Spirit" ... Search the Scripture in His regard and if necessary begin asking questions, for Christ Himself promised that "seekers" in Him would "find" and it's impossible for Him to lie in this regard, and even such finding is in fact a part of Holy Spirt's job ...1Cor.2[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.If we allow ourselves to become thoroughly aquainted and surrendered to God the Holy Spirit He'll enable us to a much more increasing intimate relationship with God the Son, which will in turn take us to a whole new intimacy level with God the Father ... This type of intimate relationship requires Power from on high ... The Power of God the Holy Spirit who'll enable us to do ALL THINGS\tTHRU CHRIST JESUS!!!

RahmanI don't know whether this title is a relic from your personal past or a current misunderstanding, but Jehovah is not the exclusive name of the Father as the JWs teach but the name of God Himself. In that sense the Father is Jehovah, the Son is Jehovah, and the Spirit is Jehovah.

Brother Ron you wrote;"I don't know whether this title is a relic from your personal past or a current misunderstanding, but Jehovah is not the exclusive name of the Father as the JWs teach but the name of God Himself"Hmmmm ... i guess i'd have to say "both" in that yes i do have a tendency to refer in my meaning to the Father as Jehovah from my being raised a JW, but also from my subsequent teachings in a Baptist Church where that minister differentiated the Father from the Son by that same name (which was a surprise to me at the time), and sometimes by Yahweh ... And my current Pentecostal pastor also differentiates the Father via the same name ... i suppose were not blessed yet with anyone as well versed, or studied as you in this regard, but it's sufficed myself and the congregation to be able to distinguish the members of the Godhead when our pastor is teaching us about each ones respective role in His master plan ... Is there a better title that i can use in reference to the Father? ... If not then if you'll forgive my ignorance i'll just leave Jehovah, and note to anyone reading that in that name i'm only refering to God the Father ... But more in line with the gist of the thread ... Brother Ron do you think that God the Holy Spirit is treated with less reverence than the Father and Son? ... If so why? ... If not why? ... i for one am always interested in what your take is on things ...

Is there a better title that i can use in reference to the Father? ... If not then if you'll forgive my ignorance i'll just leave Jehovah, and note to anyone reading that in that name i'm only refering to God the Father ...To attribute the name of Jehovah to the Father only is to disrupt the Trinity. It is not just a question of labels but of basic Christian doctrine. Jehovah was the name by which God revealed Himself to the people of Israel. Jesus is the name by which God has revealed Himself to the world.If you have read my recent Abraham studies you will know that the One sent by the Father to find a Bride for the Son is anonimous. It is the Spirit's work to exalt the Son. Although we must give due reverence to the Father and the Spirit; the Father and the Spirit have conspired to lift the name of Jesus higher than any name "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;" (Phi 2:9-10 KJV)

I don't think that not using the term jehovah would be reasonable we should not be afraid to us all the titles of God. What exactly does the word Jehovah mean? What is the most common name for God in the Scriptures?Greg, as I have just commented in my last post, it is not appropriate to refer to the Father as Jehovah to distinguish Him from the Son; this is what the JWs do.It would have been perfectly possible to transliterate Jehovah into Greek letters, but the NT never uses the name Jehovah, and this is, in my view, not an accident. The revelation of the character of God as Jehovah was primarily to the people of Israel. He was the God of Covenant. Now we have a 'new' covenant and the revelation of the character of God is now fully revealed in the name of Jesus, which means everything that Jehovah meant but adds 'Saviour' to the revelation.I think I have said this before, but I delight in explaining to Jehovah's Witnesses why I am a "Jesus' Witness" and not a "Jehovah's Witness", and it has to do with the coming of the Spirit. "you will receive the power of the Spirit coming upon you and you shall be witnesses to Me..." Only the personal empowering of the Spirit can make a man or a woman a "Jesus' Witness". "Jehovah's Witnesses", denying the person of the HOly Spirit, can never be "Jesus' Witnesses".

Brother Ron ...You wrote;"To attribute the name of Jehovah to the Father only is to disrupt the Trinity". Again i ask ... What can i change the title of the thread to that will clear it for the question of the thread?Should i write YHWH? ... Or if i put "the Father" will that afford me your clearance?i admit you're the scholar ... please tell me ... :-(

Krispy,Do you generally attend services closer to any single denomination or do you visit other denoms to see how they worship? ... i love to visit different denominations, and also cross culturally in different denominations ... i've been in loud raucus worship services where the organ and the emotionalism was the power present, and in the quiet services of a teacher where the presence of the Spirit was so thick it seemed i could almost reach out and touch Him ...i too have been in such services as you speak off and i tend to vacate them pretty quickly because you're right, Christ said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you" ... Nowhere are we told to replace Holy Spirit with Christ ...Those services are to the extreme and seem to me more interested in the gifts of Holy Spirit (what they can get from Him for show), as opposed to a complete surrender to the Spirit of God in His conforming them more to the image of Christ, and His empowerment of them toward lifting up the Lamb ... What i have found is that surrender to Holy Spirit not only increases my clarity as to the worthiness of the Lamb, but also makes me bolder in my witness of the Lamb ... Also my praise, worship and adoration is so much more greatly enhanced and clear in surrender to Holy Spirit's rightful leadership of me, presenting and keeping my body as His sacrificial temple, for in worship i get filled up so quickly just thinking about the goodness and mercy of our Lord ...Then on the other extreme i've been to many dead churches where the only wind that seemed to be stirring was that blown from the ventilators, and have wondered how does this church survive? ... But i've come to see that some churches are nothing more than social clubs, and some high class dens for intellectuals with no warmth in their hearts and no fire in their bellies ... But in my own more immediate circle of churches i attend the thing that seems to stick out to me a lot is the fact that the saints have no power ... Plenty of johnny on the spot emotionalism, but no power of the Holy Ghost to sustain them much past that ... And i've noticed that so many of those saints refer to Holy Spirit as "it" ... i could be wrong, but i think that's telling ...

e-sword gives these answers to the question which is the most common name for God…Elohim: 2601 ‘hits’Jehovah: 6521 ‘hits’Adonai: 438 ‘hits’In the KJV where the word ‘LORD’ or ‘GOD’ is all in upper case it signifies that the Hebrew word is JHWH or Jehovah.The four letters of God’s Name are JHWH, almost certainly pronounced with hard aspirates; YAHWEH. The original vowels were not in the written Hebrew language. The Jews wanting to prevent over familiarisation with the proper name JHWH hit on the idea of pronouncing the name in code. The took the vowels from Adonai, which means Lord and interspersed them with the four holy letters of God’s proper name; hence Jahowaih, which in English has become Jehovah. The Samaritans did not share the Jews’ reluctance to pronounce the sacred name and to this day, as I understand, have kept the historic pronunciation of ‘Yahweh’.Yahweh seems to be linked to the verb for ‘being’ or ‘existing’. He is the ‘always-am’. I tried to express some of these wonders a little time ago in a few thoughts on John 1; you can read them here.

Again i ask ... What can i change the title of the thread to that will clear it for the question of the thread?The classic orthodox designation has always been... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each person in the godhead may have separate titles attributed in the Scripture, but JHWH/Jehovah is the name of God.

Ok brother Ron, i've changed it to "the Father" and "the Son" in the title, and also in the initial following text ... You'd already banished me to my prayer closet, and i was getting just a little bit concerned as to where you might banish me next! ... :-P All in Christ love tho ...Br. R

Thats not to say that the Holy Spirit isnt important, of course He is. But if you find yourself in an environment where it's all about the Holy Spirit, and hardly about Christ at all... chances are, He aint there.well the constant mention of Jesus is not necessarily evidence of His presence either. I feel that if the Holy spirit is truly there then so are all three.

I think that the Holy Spirit is overlooked a lot.I'm not talking about speaking in tounges or a feeling either.I'm talking about HIM.He is not an "IT". Yet we say...Have you got it?He is not a Dove.He is not wind, nor fire, nor water, or any other substance.He is a person.He is the third part of the Godhead.He is the triune God.He IS GOD.Just my thoughts.. :-)

I think basically most don't see the moving or giftings or manifestations of the Holy Spirit because of a lack of faith----You very seldom hear of the resurrection Of Jesus and yet Paul said that's where the manifest power was --in the preaching of the resurrection of Christ.Gal- says faith worketh by love(in connection with mircles) Jesus said in the last days the love of many would grow cold(because of offenses)--Love is the fuse lit that causes the dynamic of faith to explode in what outwardly appears to be a spontaneous manifestation of God's power( however the power was already ordained in a time of prayer with an open and honest heart before God). It was Smith Wigglesworth who used to sing a song that went like this : "No prayer no power, little prayer little power, much prayer much power". I see the vast majority of christians not settled in thier hearts that Jesus is really God. That's why such prayerlessness and because the resurrection isn't preached from most pulpits the Holy Spirit can't bring a conviction of the eternal nature of Christ as God as easily.

He is the third part of the Godhead.Sentry, I am not acting as the 'thought police' on this topic, but the nature of God is so important that I want to point out that 'technically', God, who is One, does not have parts. Jesus was not part God and part man, but fully God and man at the same time. The usual phrase is the Third Person of the Triune God. The 'triune God' is usually expressed as the Trinity.

Yes I agree.Well said.Was typing fast. :-)

I am not acting as the 'thought police' on this topic :-P

It seems to me we want all the benefits of being in Christ or just one, getting into heaven. Very few of us want to get involved in the work which God has for us. We want to get into heaven and just be there, no crowns or rewards just getting in is cool. We are either unwilling (lazy, preferring to sit thumb in butt doing nothing) or unwilling, (don't care to do anything at all). No fire or desire to serve God so in effect, no need for the Holy spirit. I don't know why we would be content to just get into heaven, that's just the bare minimum. God didn't make us just to save us, He has much bigger plan for us and we have to want to get involved with that. The work which God has for us is a demonstration of the wisdom of God for all creation, want to get involved? Seek the Spirit and be more than you think you can be.

We are either unwilling (lazy, preferring to sit thumb in butt doing nothing) or unwilling, (don't care to do anything at all). I hear this alot. I'm not so sure this really is the problem. One thing I've learned from managing people is that most of us want to do a good job. Now and then someone is truly lazy, but I more often then not problem is not usually a lack of character. Strong initiative and commitment from the members of an organization is usually hindered by systemic flaws. The management and organizational leadership are unwittingly blocking participation. For instance our church culture may have developed hundreds of years ago when churches were more of a community hub, where people would come in and listen to the strong recognized authority of the pastor. Today that is no longer the case, but churches are still formatted the same way. So a Christian may be sincere and zealous to serve God but the only jobs the church seem to offer are working the soundboard or being an usher. So the Christian now has to look for Christian service outside of his church in a parachurch ministry or as an individual. This means being a part of two Christian organizations and additional time away from his family.Meanwhile back at the Church the pastor who has a full time job maintaining the church is frustrated because all of his people seem so lazy. He has lost touch with people who work 40-60 hours a week. He exausts all of thier available time with meetings. He fails to notice that most of the laypeople spend all of their free time serving his agenda, while he as the pastor, spends all of his free time on himself. In this scenario, everyone is frustrated with everyone else's lack of productivity. The irony is that everyone is too busy to even find time for prayer or reading thier bibles. It is my belief that if leadership would reformatt the church from a "sitting" or stationary community, centered on "microphone ministries", to a mobile community, centered on "mercy ministries" with ready made opportunities for reaching the lost that Christians would line up around the block to participate. I don't think this will happen because of several intrinsic challenges to such a decentralized community that are contrary to how we view church.Of course I am being simplistic. Not every church neatly fits my description. Clearly it is most imperitive that we pray and read our bibles. There can't be any light without oil in the lamp. That being the case, I think that a big part of the reason why Christians seem so unproductive for God is a systemic flaw: our churches are designed for sitting. They are designed for meetings, not encounters.What you guys think?MC