Christian Hedonism

That is an athiestic self focused belief system. For a Christian to call this Christianity shouldn't even be worth considering.Ann Rand was a popular athiest writer in the 50's and I think she led a lot of guilt ridden religous people down this road of self pleasure. They circumvented repentance and held onto something that leaves God completely out in regards to how one should live.What I think happened was religous people read her writings and listened to this growing move towards science and reason and believed the theory she taught and tried to mesh it w/ Christianity. I think this growing move is where we get the term "practical athiesm". They call themselves Christians and live in whatever way derives them pleasure.They find pleasure in disgusting TV shows and going to bars and clubs on the weekends without having to feel guilty. They say they believe in God while they let their conscience become seered as they leave Him completely out of their day to day lives.

Stephen,I think I know who you are talking about : John Piper. Awsome writer and pastor!I know the way the wording is- it sounds wrong. I had a hard time grasping the idea at first myself because I am not a theological scholar :)Piper is best known for this statement: "God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him"! Love it!I won't take all the time necessary on here to explain why he calls it christian "hedonsim" because I am in a hurry but you cna go to his site www.desiringgod.org and find out about it.It's really about getting our satisfaction, our pleasure and or joy in HIM - hence "christian" hedonsim. He does talk much about self-denial, etc... and he can because we are to get our fullfillment in Him alone.He is a most wonderful man. I have read many of his books and he continues to inspire me to press on for God's glory.Here is a good article explaining : So You Want to Be Christian Hedonist?Hope this helps!In His love, chanin

Christian Hedonism is the name given to a defective application of the Gospel that considers our happiness and well being ahead of Gods' glory and honor. While, it's most extreme expression is rank hypocasy, it's starting point is much more subtle. Christian Hedonism leads us to think that Christ endured the cross not in anticipation of His own satisfaction and joy, but for ours. It glorifies how I can find meaning and purpose and avoid the fires of hell, rather then upholding Gods' satisfaction as the purpose of my being. Christian Hedonism's depravity is most artfuly displayed as a "selfless" altruism that motivates me to preach the Gospel for the sake of my fellow man rather then for Gods. This single error is the source of many perverted and devilish false gospels being televised and advertised in the world today. Hedonistic preachers package the cross as the promise of a "better life", not just physically, but spiritually. They lead people to believe that God exists for man. They teach Christians to master principles for successful living rather then to be mastered by a Person who is not bound to our dreams. For instance, preachers corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, teach that godliness is a way of gain, intead of teaching that godliness with contentment IS great gain. With the false starting point of terrestial fulfillment and heavenly security as the highest and final aim of the Gospel, all Christian conduct is set on a vector of self-realization rather then divine revelation. Consequently those doctrines and actions which increase my satisfaction are thereby constituted "of God", and, conversely, what increases my pain is wrong. Ultimatley, if the product fails to satisfy as promised, then I, as a faithful but choosy servant, claim the right to modify the product or become dissolusioned and sinful in order to find my warranted satisfactionMC

MC,The only Christian hedonsism I've ever heard of is from John Piper and he is nothing at all like you explain here. I thought he was the one who coined the phrase christian hedonism as kind of a backlash against all the prosperity messages, etc...he is definitely not a prosperity preacher - he is the opposite. He preaches living in "war time mode" - only having enough for what you need.Some of his writings have changed my life. he is a huge fan of Jonathan Edwards (who he considers his mentor.)Don't let the phrasing fool you :)In His love, Chanin

I appreciate the kind manner in which you repsonded! Thanks. The issue of Christian Hedonism is talked about in Paris Redfields' "Ten Sheckels" sermon, now made famous here at SI! I also feel that Oswald Chambers touched on this issue in his Utmost for my Highest.I am somewhat familiar with John Piper's concept of Christian Hedonism. Right away we must try and determine if we have a semantic or substantive difference on our hands here. We recognize that one can fill a word with any meaning desired---so Piper intends Christian Hedonism to mean Christians seeking pleasure in God. Frankly I feel he uses the term to "challenge" people into thinking outside of their stodgy religous boxes and to see God in a fresh and positive way. (Why else would he call God the "ultimate Hedonist" if not to shock us?) Even Edwards preached many sermons such as "The Pleasantness of Religion" to list the benifits of coming to Christ. In Pipers' case his objective is decent enough; he wants us to know that man finds pleasure in God and that God finds pleasure in man. He says, " We are Christian Hedonists because we believe Psalm 16:11, 'You show me the path of life; in Your presence there is fullness of joy, in Your right hand are pleasures for evermore.'"When he uses the word hedonism to reference our pleasure in God, Piper sets up too much room for double meaning and misunderstanding. I realize Christian Hedonism need not be referring to lust, greed, and other egotisms, but I feel the focus on "pleasure" is setting the Christian up for a fall. Spiritual pleasure can not really be the inducement we need to experience in order for us to be motivated to keep walking with God. We do not Love God simply because doing so makes us happy. Piper says " Pleasure is simply a gauge that measures how valuable someone or something is to us. Pleasure is the measure of our treasure."Such a statement fails to disclose the full reason for following Christ; namely because God has commanded us to repent and believe. "Though He Slay me, yet will I trust in Him!" (Job 13:15) I don't want to sound pious and nit-picky but this really is the core of the Gospel. When I said Hedonistic preachers package the cross as the promise of a "better life", not just physically, but spiritually. I wasn't referring to just prosperity teachers." The flawed idea I was referring to is without borders....it's defined how we understand he gospel these days. I know you and John Piper understand this. My difficulty with Pipers phrase "Christian Hedonism" is that it uses the wrong word to convey the right idea of finding joy in God. Blessings Chanin!MC

MC,I understand where you are coming from. I suppose that Christian hedonism isn't the best wording because if people don't know what he is talking about and unless they are a theological scholar and know all the right theological "phrases"- they may misinterpret the words.I do think it was brought about as a "counter" religious thing or for shock value.Although I, my husband and teen daughter have read his writings, they are nothing but all for God's glory and for the supremacy of God in all things. Everytime I have ever read anything by him or listened to his preaching, it only points to Christ and Him getting the glory He so deserves.Many young people of this generation are exposed to Piper and his teachings - and I thank The Lord for this because it flies in the face of the rest of the garbage out there. I have seen Piper's writings produce a small group of this generation who has a passion for the supremacy and glory of God alone.He often says that he wants to spread a passion for the supremacy of God. He also talks much about suffering and the cross- how it also can be a joy and is necessary in the christian life.he makes it clear in his books that the word "pleasure" is so taken the wrong way these days. Most people equate it with sexual pleasure and this is just not true.He says that you can substitute these words for pleasure: desire or delight. I delight in God, I desire God more than anything. I find my joy, my delight, in God alone.I just recently finished his book "When I Don't Desire God- How to Fight For Joy" It is a book for hose who experience depression or valleys or low times.We all know the purpose of our exhistance (from the shorter catechism) "Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever".Piper's statement "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him" is/ was a life changing statement for me. I knew I was not satisfied in God alone. I was satisfied with some of God and some of myself and my old ways. When I realized that I was supposed to be satisfied in Him ALONE- i was deeply convicted.His writing produces a desire.. a desire to know God and make Him supremely King, to seek after Him until He is all you see and want to see- because He is enough. He satisfies.I am very familiar with Reidheads sermon as well. He hit the nail on the head as far as humanism in christianity is concerned. But what I have read from Piper does not contradict any of this at all - it only deepens it.I think and i hope that when people see the words christian hedonism- it causes them to think twice and pick it up and investigate for themselves. "hey, what's the deal with this?" and I think that it is what it was meant to do.I have seen the truth and the beauty and worth of God shine best from the lives of saints who are so satisfied in God- that they can suffer in the cause of love without murmuring. Is Christ not the richest of fare, the best taste, the "all we need"? When He is everything to us, when we are satisfied in Him and Him alone, we can't help but have true joy, satisfaction and pleasure in Him. I think He made it to be so- even in the midst of suffering or persecution.In all honesty, i think it is kind of a trick phrase. It gets people who think they are looking to get pleasure (as their ultimate goal) yet they end up only caring about God and His glory -and the pleasure and joy just ends up being a by product :-) I have seen college students transformed and passionate for nothing else but Him because of his writings. They do not seek gifts, not things, not power, not a easier life, not a more comfortable life- only Christ and him magnified through them. I have seen my daughter more passionate about missions and the willingness to give up her own life for the glory of God because of His book "Don't waste your life." I think we should be careful about trying to squash every spark out there.Just more thoughts...... :-) In His love, Chanin

I think we should be careful about trying to squash every spark out there.This is my heart also. I don't want to be a contrary person who is instinctively down-grading everyone else's theology! The wonderful way you feel about your daughter is really the way we should regard each other, encouraging and generous.I don't have any problems with John Piper! If I lived near enough I would probably attend his Church. Any one who could write an awesome book like "The Pleasures of God: Meditations on God's Delight in Being God" is someone I trust and admire immensely. It's just surprising that a strong God-centered pastor and theologian as Piper, with such a clear emphasis on the supremacy and sovereignty of God would embrace an unclear phrase like "Christian Hedonism." He invites controversy...This is the problem with words. They can be made to mean anything and people who agree with each other end up debating shadows. I now have heard two polar opposite definitions for the same phrase: Christian Hedonism means to some a "Man-centered Gospel" and yet to others, "A God-centered Gospel." Well, if Dr. Piper is making good headway with the phrase Christian Hedonism as meaning "the sanctified desire to find pleasure in God alone", then let me yield to his definition! Let me become a Christian Hedonist who seeks, in every circumstance, to find pleasure in God! Now in the interest of preserving the substance, if not the semantics of my original post I thought I would quote some Oswald Chambers. These quotes pose the question: what exactly is pleasure in God?"There are times when there is no illumination and no thrill, but just the daily round, the common task. Routine is God's way of saving us between our times of inspiration. Do not expect God always to give you His thrilling minutes, but learn to live in the domain of drudgery by the power of God."After every time of exaltation we are brought down with a sudden rush into things as they are where it is neither beautiful nor poetic nor thrilling. The height of the mountain top is measured by the drab drudgery of the valley; but it is in the valley that we have to live for the glory of God... It is in the sphere of humiliation that we find our true worth to God, that is where our faithfulness is revealed. "Most of us develop our Christianity along the line of our temperament, not along the line of God. Impulse is a trait in natural life, but Our Lord always ignores it, because it hinders the development of the life of a disciple. "Walking on the water is easy to impulsive pluck, but walking on dry land as a disciple of Jesus Christ is a different thing. Peter walked on the water to go to Jesus, but he followed Him afar off on the land. We do not need the grace of God to stand crises, human nature and pride are sufficient, we can face the strain magnificently; but it does require the supernatural grace of God to live twenty-four hours in every day as a saint, to go through drudgery as a disciple, to live an ordinary, unobserved, ignored existence as a disciple of Jesus. It is inbred in us that we have to do exceptional things for God; but we have not. We have to be exceptional in the ordinary things, to be holy in mean streets, among mean people, and this is not learned in five minutes."Blessings Chanin,MC

Well, if Dr. Piper is making good headway with the phrase Christian Hedonism as meaning "the sanctified desire to find pleasure in God alone", then let me yield to his definition! Let me become a Christian Hedonist who seeks, in every circumstance, to find pleasure in God!`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.' `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'Here are some Definitions of Hedonism. I am not at all sure, Mr Piper, "whether you CAN make words mean so many different things." What might be next? 'Christian Stoicism', 'Christian Epicureanism'. 'Christian Thieves' perhaps or 'Christian Murderers'>? I don't think we can 'convert' the word 'Hedonism' by putting the word 'Christian' in front of it any more than we can convert anything or anyone by putting the word 'Christian' in front of them.I don't think I shall have any problems with what Mr Piper means, but 'reformed' things have a habitof of reverting to their true natures, and this also applies to words.

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'Well I must be living in wonderland 'cause I'm always wondering...MC

I know almost nothing about it but i understand that it says that we should be motivated by pleasure (pleasure in God).I think that pleasure isn't the sole motication. Listen to some of John Piper's sermons, and I think you will finmd out that he has his head on straight. His most recent 2 on wrath are awesome.There is nothing wrong with finding joy in the Lord, but joy should never become our idol. Soem people worship spiritual experiences above God. Slippery slope, this sinful nature.

please look atChristian Hedonism debunked for some great articles that expose Piper's philosophy. Also see this thread Piper is calling good evil for a great discussion.

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but even I understand that there are rules to english grammer and oratory. I understand what Mr. Piper meant but the adjective he used was a poor choice of words (Col4:6). It seems, especially in the big ministries, that the plain gospel and teachings of the Word of God isn't enough anymore, it needs spruced up somehow. I think we forget that its still the cross and that its the Holy Spirit's job to convict, draw, exhort ect.....The fact that one word could cause such contravesy leads me to ask , "did he use wisdom in his selection of word topics"? James3:17-18 You judge for yourself, measure it against the word of God and the fruit of wisdom and the effects it seems to be having on not only this board but those around the country.

Please don't direct this at Mr. Piper. He is a Godly man (giant leaps ahead of me anyway!) and he deserves our respect.Stephen, I meant no disrespect to Mr Piper. It was intended as a humourous misquote of Lewis Carol's Alice in her questioning Humpty Dumpty!

There is nothing wrong with finding joy in the Lord, but joy should never become our idol. Soem people worship spiritual experiences above God. Slippery slope, this sinful nature.the joy of the Lord is my strength. I am not resisting the 'finding of joy in the Lord', but I am questioning if we can ever use the word 'hedonism' of such a discovery. I am not even sure that we should be 'seeking' joy in the Lord. I am quite sure that I should not be seeking it as the ultimate purpose of life, which is what 'hedonism' means.