The Kundalini Spirit & The Souls & Bodies of men!

Below is a link to a documentary which is both useful as a visual reminder of what has happened since the mid 1990’s in the charismatic movement, but it also provides a good historical time line of the personalities involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs

Just to flesh out something of what Andrew Strom the commentator says on the video which relates to discernment. A number of times Mr Strom says that we should be concerned that the greatest apostolic and prophetic leaders of the charismatic movement have failed to discern the kundalini spirit which is exhibited in the clips he shows both from Hinduism and the various churches and meetings represented. If you look at these videos carefully however you can see that although there is clearly a confusion in both groups (Hindus & Believers) there is a greater amount of order in the Hindu group. In other words whilst many individuals exhibit these symptoms of having received an unclean spirit, many more do not exhibit these same symptoms at all. What does this mean as far as discernment is concerned? Is Mr Strom speaking about a general discernment or is he speaking about specific discernment? I believe he is in fact speaking about a general discernment in that the charismatic leaders being spoken of ought to have realised that the symptoms exhibited in the early days of Rodney Howard Brown formed a reasonable basis for rejection of the whole movement which is linked in the way Mr Strom suggests.

What then can we make today of the fact that these meetings are filled with men and women who take the name of the Lord and so far as we are able to know, are believers no less than we are ourselves? How is it that so many believers cannot discern in the moment what manner of spirit is being manifest? The answer I believe has to do with the men and women who have become the visible personalities of these movements, because whilst they themselves all testify to some remarkable as well as sometimes bizarre encounters with God, they are not so much possessed as we would think, but are essentially cooperating with evil spirits which are well hidden and not physically present in these meetings as we would expect. In short they have gone through a process in which their own lives and experiences, which are mostly hidden, make certain that deception is the reality of the fruit of their private and hidden behaviour. It is as much more a likelihood that they themselves are the demonic instrument in the end by reason of having disregarded sin in their own lives, than it is likely that a demon is possessing them directly and manifesting in them in visibility through the laying on of hands.

In this instance it will be impossible to discern a spirit, because a man cannot be discerned. Men can be observed, heard, and touched, they cannot be discerned in the same way that an unclean spirit can be discerned. It clearly must be necessary to be able to discern that which is of Satan, especially error, and it cannot be any less obvious that if a demonic agency is present in a locality, it too must be discernible. The one, that of general discernment is a reality borne out of possessing the life of Christ and walking in the Spirit, having a sound doctrine. The other is a gift of the Holy Spirit, of the discerning of spirits. All of this raises a real problem however. If Andrew Strom is right and the physical manifestations observed in both the Hindus and the believers in the videos is received by the laying on of hands and imparted in that way, how is it that so many believers present in these meetings have not discerned the presence of unclean spirits in their midst? It is too simplistic to say that every single person in these meetings is lacking in discernment or that every single person in these meetings is not a true believer.

Conversely if the manifestations are not the outworking or consequence of unclean spirits being present in the meetings and passing from one to another through the laying on of hands, how are these manifestations produced? This latter question must be applied to both Hindus and believers, even as the laying on of hands, as well as the manifestations are clearly the same or similar in both groups.

The Demonic Self

My own understanding is a simply one. In these videos both the Yogic Hindu Priest and the minister in the Church are operating out of the very same substance of mind and body. Both are in agreement in their own minds and bodies with what they are doing and their intention in it. The profound difference between the Yogic Hindu priest and the believing minister is their ability to produce or else provoke supernatural effects and symptoms in other people. Watch the videos again and see just what a difference there is in the Hindu clips and the believers clips. The effect in the believers clips is multiplied several fold that of the Hindu clips. This should give us cause for thought at the very least. How is this possible?

After all it is not difficult to believe that the Hindu priest is himself possessed and that he is therefore literally passing on an unclean spirit to those he lays hands on and thereby they also become possessed or at very least influenced beyond the point of physical contact with the practitioner. In the Hindu clips, especially the scene of the Yogic mat with hundreds of yogic disciples, there is order and self control for the most part. Then there is the occasional laughing of one here and one there. Even this is not chaotic. The same is true for the spasms which are less dramatic in the Hindu yogic disciples than in the believers. It is possible to believe that an unclean spirit is atmospherically working to help produce this same Kundalini effect in believers. It is less easy to believe that the christian minister is actually possessed as he must be if his hands are the instrument by which this spiritual effect is passed on or released. Observationally it would be almost impossible to make a separation between this claim of physical contact and the impetus of the effects as seen, yet we must pass beyond mere observation if we are to comprehend what all of this means.

I have to say this plainly because there is no other way to say it. I believe that the christian minister in many of these situations, where the effect is much more visible and profound is in truth a more demonic man than the hindu yogic priest. In saying this I am not saying that the christian minister is a more possessed man than the hindu yogic priest. I am saying that neither men need to be possessed at all. Both men can be acting out of their own natural abilities and knowledge. The difference between these two types of men is that the Hindu knows that his efforts are grounded in the physical body, the christian minister believes that what he is imparting is spiritual. For the Hindu yogic there is a restraint of many years of seeking to understand the Shakras as well as the Nadis of the physical body as defined and presented in mathematical, diagrammatical and philosophical language which forms the core of Hindu belief systems. For the christian minister it is believed that he is imparting the Holy Spirit and is predicated on speech (preaching) rather than physical manipulation or the knowledge of it.

Hindu Philosophy & Physiology

The Shakras are essentially centres of energy and are physically located vertically through the body is seven (twelve) different places [12 chakras and seven]. The Nadis are essentially the fluid channels of the movement of energy around the body. There have been as many as 72,000 different channels identified and these correspond to the physical nervous system through a complex intertwining effect. This intertwining is more evident at the base of the spine than in any other part of the body. This is the central point of occurrence of the Kundalini awakening which is attained through Hindu yogic practises as defined by classical Hinduism. It is also the first Shakra and the philosophical and physical connection between the adept and the spirit of the earth. Hence the presentation of the classic hindu seated position as emblematic of Yogic and Hindu practises and beliefs. It s the bum on the floor literally.

This interrelationship between the bodies nervous system, having its principle outworking at the base of the spine, is described as a coiled snake (Kundalini). It is the release of this energy in rather the same way one would conceive of the upward thrust observed when any coil is released, which forms the central ambition of self awakening and so-called spiritual enlightenment in Yogic practises. The Hindu yogic priest in the video clips demonstrates the "brow shakra” being manipulated and hence the importance of the physical relationship between "awakening” and its meaning in Hindu Philosophy.

As far as the believers are concerned whilst I have personally witnessed this technique (brow shakra) being used even as recently as three months ago in a christian meeting, it is clear that in many instances the laying on of hands is a less physically specific act and is much more generalised on the front of the head or else front and crown. Some times it is clear that this effect is achieved without even having hands laid on at all and sometimes with the lightest of touches. All of this tells us that whilst the Hindu technique is grounded in a developed understanding and manipulation of the body, the christian technique is grounded principally in speech and less in the physical parameters of the body. In essence the christian technique is more sophisticated and attends much more to the relationship between emotions and the physical body. In this it is in reality much more occult in its outworking and consequence.

I am not really seeking to demonstrate anything specific in this article beyond the fact that although, when we speak of the demonic from a scriptural perspective, we are speaking about possession in the New Testament in the majority of instances and worship of demons in the Old Testament, yet what is observed in this so-called Kundalini spirit is in my understanding neither possession or worship. It is men.....souls and bodies at work. Whatever part demonic spirits play in this it is primarily in the air and it is unlikely to be a physical presence in a meeting. If anything demons are much more likely to be hidden and remain hidden for fear of discovery. Their efforts are best served in a man and the man is best serving them when he is himself a demonic man.

I believe that just six instances of specific individual possession are listed in the New Testament although an unspecified number are stated as forming part of the disciples as well as the Lord’s ministry. In the case of the six specific instances of possession cited all but one of these possessions resulted in symptoms of physical or mental illness. Only once do we read (as far I know) of a perceived benefit attached to demonic possession. In one instance we read of a demon forming the basis of enhanced mental powers in a female servant. I suppose that the validity of Mr Strom's presentation from my own understanding has to do with the reality that eastern mysticism, which is the broader occult backdrop for this Kundalini effect, has been embraced into the church through false teachers.

Of Hinduism

The specific branch of Hinduism which is drawn upon philosophically to inform those who teach Yogic self enlightenment of the form which has become known as Kundalini Yoga is शैव पंथ, (Å›aiva paṁtha) Puranic Shaivism. Beyond this philosophical foundation of course are men and women at work in their own ambitions and desires as well as demonic spirits. In saying this we have to strike a balance and realise that unclean spirits work in every place and with equal effect in every place as far as philosophy and religion is concerned. Whist it may well be true, that in India generally and historically (especially in the Himalayas and the North Eastern regions of India), this practise was developed and drew its meaning from oral and then written traditions, it is based just as essentially in physical manifestations in the body itself where ever men and women can be found to express the philosophical as well as physical knowledge underpinning it. Shiva is regarded as the "spirit” which gave rise to Yoga and forms the most effectual of all the Hindu philosophical threads of thought and outworking in visibility. Therefore it is not possible to ignore the demonic spirits which wage war against the saints to wear them down and to introduce false "spirits” into the churches.

The earliest roots of this introduction of demonic "spirits” into the Western World and Britain in particular came during the days of the Raj in India. From which intellectual Brahmin as well as Sikh were able to travel from India to England in particular and mingle with high society, especially the academic and business communities in the wealthier cities including Leicester in the Midlands. Jessie Penn-Lewis was not ignorant of this class of men in English society during the late Victorian era and the Edwardian Era. More specifically Mrs Penn-Lewis speaks about Hinduism from her visits to north east India (Simla) the same general region which forms the historical seed bed of Kundalini yogic occultism as presented in Western Societies. Because Mrs Penn-Lewis came to realise that the soul itself was a powerful force she was naturally concerned by some of what she learned about the Welsh Revival which lasted just 10 months between 1904/5. Although it is certain that Mrs Penn-Lewis had nothing to do with Evan Roberts nervous breakdown and crisis in 1905 when the Welsh Revival was at its height, it is clear that Mrs Penn-Lewis did confirm Evan’s own fears that at least elements of what happened in the Welsh revival was of Satan and not of the Lord and that Evan himself had been deceived in some measure. http://www.revival-library.org/pensketches/revivalists/robertse.html

The point in all of this is really a simply point. I believe Mrs Penn-Lewis got it wrong as far as the demonic is concerned because her focus was more on the demonic realm than the soul itself and especially the vulnerability in the relationship between the physiological and the psychical realities of the human condition (Flesh). In saying this I believe that Mrs Penn-Lewis has to some extent been misrepresented badly by some brethren in that she has been accused of overemphasising demonic activity itself as though a demon could be anything or do anything or achieve anything without the cooperation of the man. I think Jessie Penn-Lewis was as much concerned with the soul itself as she was with demonic activity and was also concerned about the fleshy body which provides the physical basis for the sensations which facilitate deception. What Mrs Penn-Lewis could not "prove” was the complexity of the relationship between human physiology and consciousness of the soul. Consequently her own attempts to demonstrate this relationship and the implication of being ignorant of it for believers who seek for spiritual experiences, was a clear and real danger. Who can doubt this in the modern malaise of madness where truth and sound doctrine are set aside in favour of "spiritual” experiences.

Mrs Penn-Lewis was concerned with the relationship between the induction of neurological passivity and how that attends to the release of latent soulish energy and effects and in consequence how demonic spirits can masquerade as the Spirit of God as evidenced by certain physical and auditory manifestations. The physical would be along the lines of the video shown by Andrew Strom and the auditory would be essentially false tongues and false prophecy. I would add that at its most sophisticated outworking it is sorceric (pseudo-prophetic) speech.

To quote her:

"The lower nerve-centres (the ganglionic system, or the "vegetative" nerves, as they are called), which have their chief seat in the region round the pit of the stomach, are excited to increased activity. At the same time the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system), which in a normal state of affairs is the medium of conscious perception and action, becomes paralysed. There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ losing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness, or artificially by hypnotism, auto-suggestion, etc. and positively by the lower nerves being in some way excited artificially to increased activity, whereby they get the upper hand. These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs of sense do not possess, they receive impressions from a realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance, presentiments, prophecy, speaking with tongues, etc. (War on the Saints 1912 Unabridged Edition).

A more modern explanation

In modern parlance the vegetative nervous system is generally called the autonomic nervous system and consists of the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. See Fig.14.2.jpg. What Mrs Penn-Lewis calls the higher nervous system is really the central nervous system, that of the physical brain and the spinal chord as well as the peripheral sensory system derived from it (nervousorg.jpg). It is the central nervous system which interplays with and produces behaviour and self awareness and although there is no precise physical explanation as to how this self awareness and the attendant behavioural synthesises arises, the field of study which primarily looks into this is psychology. Language plays a massive roll in the synthesis between the psychical (biblical soul or psuche Gk) the physiological, neurological and sympathetic nervous system. Mrs Penn-Lewis in her own explanation was seeking to essentially assert that physical realities both internal and external can induce a state neurological passivity which then releases the necessary mechanisms for the soul to experience a higher realm. What she was unable to properly describe and therefore largely left it out of her preaching and teaching ministry through books at least was the relationship between speech, behaviour and physiology. This relationship was crudely visible in 1912 when War on the Saints was written, in a theory called Classical Conditioning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning Today this theory is now fully explored and is additionally informed by a more sophisticated theory called Operant Conditioning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning In short the outworking is that had Mrs Penn-Lewis had the means of making a scientific connection between speech and behaviour she would not have had to rely so heavily on her passivity model for explaining why believers could become susceptible through a form of neuro hypnosis to soulish or pseudo spiritual experiences grounded in the body and why she felt inclined to move evermore towards a demonic interventionist model.

I go a good deal further than Mrs Penn-Lewis in one respect (disregarding neurological hypnosis) I get straight to the point. Those who are pseudo-prophetic can and do command, compel, control and manipulate others by speech alone. The higher realm of experience which is induced by this means both in the pseudo-prophetic man or woman as well as in the hearer may be nothing more than self conscious fulfilment in the realm of the souls own powers to deceive. How this then extends into ariel activity is a matter for the individual and their personal ambitions. Yet it is within the dominion and control of the individual and may not be demonic unclean spirits at work in the air. Their work is done in the individual man or woman when the man or woman has become the power or agency of continuation through seduction by the physiological means herein described in others as well as through language, and finally through written texts of sophistication and induction when the foundation is laid down. In short is is sorcery.

When a person is stimulated and directs their energies, the effects can be profound and go beyond what any one individual on their own would be able to resist of reject as anything other than evidence of some "higher” spiritual achievement. It is of course not true and represents nothing more than the mind and the body, where the mind exceeds the physical or vegetative (autonomic) functions of the body and experiences the "awakening” of the soul. In Hindu Yogic practise, the term spiritual is a misnomer or pseudo expression and is often spoken of in western presentations of this occult knowledge of human psycho-physiology, in similar terms. In reality the meaning is really no more that the latent power of the soul released from a direct dependancy on the physical body. The Hindu schematic of the physiological base for this release speaks for itself (images). Rooted in the limitations of Sanskrit, of the 10th century there is no precise word for spirit, as there was in fact no belief in the spirit at all. Everything which is spoken of has to do with the soul and corresponds entirely to western perceptions of the psuche of greek philosophy and the psyche of modern psychology. In short the idea that Hindu Yogic practises are aimed at spiritual benefits is a total and complete deception pressed into American culture especially since the 1960’s, having been provoked into public interest and therefore experienced, through societal drug abuse in the first popular instance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbhajan_Singh_Yogi Since that first wave of acceptance it has taken a more rational and seemingly intellectual position and is said to be no more than a physical benefit.

Of the Saints

If we look at the video again we see just how this reality is worked out in an open and wilfully blasphemous way. The so-called "toking the Ghost” as expressed by John Crowder is a clear expression of a demonic mind at work where the blasphemer has to speak against a true knowledge of Christ and the Holy Spirit in saying what they do. This speaking against is the very distinction which exists between the Hindu unbeliever who cannot act in any true knowledge and the christian who has the true knowledge of God and Christ. I believe that this is why Andrew Strom singles this man out for the clearest condemnation as to his speech and behaviour. What disturbs many believers with regards to men like John Crowder is precisely that one cannot discern an evil or unclean spirit, yet his speech and manner of behaviour is clearly demonic. The manifest difference between Hindu Yogic occult practises and this "show” by believers is that the "show” is induced by speech primarily and yet does not neglect the physical reality of using the (hands) body itself as an instrument to both impute meaning and emphasis as well as to facilitate physical familiarity. None of the things which are visible in these videos, in so far as believers are concerned, need be the evidence of evil spirits at work in individuals. Or represent a risk of possession to anyone on the receiving end. Possession is a rarity in men of sound mind and body. It will undoubtably be true that these individual men and women who practise familiar occult techniques to induce effects amounting to psycho-physical and psychosomatic effects in others are themselves the principle spirit or agency in these events. They are the direct and visible beneficiaries and they themselves are accountable before God.

Should we therefore condemn them outright and say of them that they have no true knowledge of Christ? We cannot condemn them because though we are called to judge one another, we are not called to condemn one another as though we ourselves understood the outcome of these things. We can however separate from them and ought to do without reservation. Indeed it is precisely because John Crowder can talk a great deal of sound doctrine that he is a dangerous man.

http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/crowder.htm

The present drunkenness and outward manifestations which accompany this new wave of deception sweeping across North America as well as other nations around the world, is a deception in so far as it is believed to be an evidence of the power and presence of God. It is no such thing. It is no more than Hindu Yogic Priests of the Kundalini tradition of Hindu practise have been exhibiting for a thousand years. In the past it was informed supernaturally by demonic spirits well familiar with human physiology through countless successive possessions of generations of men and women who freely gave themselves to these things by reason of self gratification and personal power over others. This familiar knowledge of the body and mind are inevitably interwoven into demon worship through outward things such as idols and even individual men being held up as "masters” and "teachers” or great men of God, being expressed also in diagrammatical forms both mathematically, geometrically as well as semantically through language.

Today the instruments of science have observed the physiology of Hindu Yogic belief and so these things have (in unbelievers) gained a rational basis for acceptance. In the saints it is inexcusable to allow the body itself to be an instrument of testing or else knowing truth because the Holy Spirit Himself bears witness to the Truth of Christ in our true spirits made alive together in Christ, and not the things of men whether their bodies or their souls. Yet if we seek to discern an unclean spirit in these things of men, we will be left wondering. Men cannot be discerned in this way as though they had already tasted death. Their words are a better informant of their activities and so we need to learn to listen more perfectly when they speak and not be afraid to walk away or feel condemned ourselves because we comprehend a need to be separate from these things. If men receive flattery for doing no more than they have been freely given in Christ Jesus for your sake, do not receive the man. He is already vulnerable to himself and in that he is vulnerable to the air.

Further links for informational purposes

http://www.innerexplorations.com/ewtext/kun.htm Be warned of this one!

http://www.newchristian.org.uk/kundalini.html Safe!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_humanmultidimensionaanatomy.htm Be informed!

http://www.adishakti.org/subtle_system/chakras.htm Be Sensible!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jtVGxJU-j2I From the early seventies.

Further useful link

http://www.wordconnect.org/page_background_spiritualism_in_the_church.php

Conclusion

You may be wondering what specifically is the connection between Hinduism and those men and women who profess a faith in the Lord Jesus who feature in the original video by Andrew Strom or the others named in the links provided.

The simplest and most direct answer is this. Do not be led on or taught by physical sensations. Do not be taught or led on by exhilaration. Do not be taught or led on by emotional floods of tears and even feelings of repentance or a belief in the activity of the Holy Spirit by those means. Do not follow men and women who promote signs and wonders, by proclamations and shouts and commands even unto heaven itself. Judge yourself and be led by a mind of obedience at all times to those things which you know you ought to do. Finally resist those things which you know you ought not to do. In all things be sober and of a sound mind.

I agree with most of this but would like to point out that the following:

"The lower nerve-centres (the ganglionic system, or the "vegetative" nerves, as they are called), which have their chief seat in the region round the pit of the stomach, are excited to increased activity. At the same time the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system), which in a normal state of affairs is the medium of conscious perception and action, becomes paralysed. There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ losing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness, or artificially by hypnotism, auto-suggestion, etc. and positively by the lower nerves being in some way excited artificially to increased activity, whereby they get the upper hand. These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs of sense do not possess, they receive impressions from a realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance, presentiments, prophecy, speaking with tongues, etc. (War on the Saints 1912 Unabridged Edition).

was not written by Jessie Penn-Lewis but is quoted by her in War on the Saints from a book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann and translated from German published in The Overcomer in 1910. It is conveniently left out in most charismatic printings of her book.

As I think that I have mentioned before Colin, no-one I know who speaks in tongues has been successful in receiving the second blessing of holiness. Teachers of it in the past were opposed to the practise. If I was seeking the blessing I would not risk going against these great teachers of the past even if I had utterly convincing experiences that made me think they were from God. I would not pressume ever that I was beyond being deceived by the enemy as I know that he is much cleverer than me and can convince me of anything. We also cannot 'claim the blood' to prevent being fooled by him. Only those walking in holiness are free from his deceptions. If we still sin then we are open to deception and whatever we do to plead protection will not protect us when we are still fleshy. I have issued a challenge to those seeking to just give my words a fair trial and God will not rebuke for testing the spirits but I have not met anyone yet who will take it seriously. The result is that many are seeking but no-one is finding.

……was not written by Jessie Penn-Lewis but is quoted by her in War on the Saints from a book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann and translated from German published in The Overcomer in 1910. It is conveniently left out in most charismatic printings of her book. Brenda

Yes I should have remembered that Brenda. I did read that fact quiet recently and so should have remembered that Jessie Penn-Lewis was not the actual author of the quotation but rather Ernst Lohmann.

I would like to stress that although much of what I have shared is already well known by many believers, it may be poorly understood in reality of experience. So much so that in this knowledge we may be inclined to attribute every deluding influence to demonic spirits and not see that men and women can of themselves serve the same purpose. In asking how it is possible for unclean spirits to influence believers in a meeting where Christ is in the midst by the Holy Spirit, I am not seeking to make an argument for rejecting the gifts of the Holy Spirit nor should it be one. It is a sincere question borne out of years of experience and reflection on my own discernment, beginning with the first church I attended which taught and believed in the gift of tongues, and where I first really became burdened for the youth of the church especially.

How can the Holy Spirit be at work in the meeting in which people are being saved and at the same time unclean spirits are working in the air to deceive? Some would say that it is not possible and others would claim that the whole atmosphere can be saturated with them. Yet who actually discerns these spirits at the time this is happening? The answer is that few report such discernment. Why is this? If the atmosphere is so full of devilish activity how is it possible that so few are able to discern their activity clearly?

Many believers doubt that there are demonic agencies who hide and seek to take advantage of men and women for their own purposes. Many others attribute to demons everything which they reject. The baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit is found right at the heart of this concern. The fact that deception can happen even in revival is remarkable, yet it can and does happen. For me the balance lays in the realisation that the Holy Spirit works principally in the spirits of men. He does not need to pass through the air in the same way unclean spirits are required to. The Holy Spirit can clearly exercise total dominion and authority in any and all places without limit. Yet it is an undoubted fact that He does not overwhelm the will and emotions of men and women in order to change them from the outside. Demons do. Praise God the Father that the Holy Spirit alone has the authority to labour from the inside. If the believer is in a wrong attitude and has made themselves vulnerable, by anticipating the outward power of God, then they may be vulnerable to deceiving spirits working in the air itself. Yet if the outward and visible power of God were truly as it is demonstrated to be in the Scriptures no one would doubt the outward evidences of God any more than a truly saved person can doubt the inward realities of God either. If it is to be outward then it must be unequivocal and untainted. "Gold and silver I have not" said Peter "that which I have I give you" If the man to whom Peter spoke these words had not received the thing spoken by Peter then Peter would have been a fraud and a boaster. Yet today many men and women boast in that which is not in fact visible at all. With Peter as with the Lord and all the apostles that which was inward was given to a visible good outcome and effect.

‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ John 7:38

The greek word used in John 7:38 for "inner most part" is κοιλία. It is the same word used for the belly and the womb. It is used metaphorically in this verse to denote the individual "cavity" of the soul. It is the sense of an infilling and is expressed in the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. The interesting thing about such a usage of κοιλία lies in the fact that it would have been just as easy for John to have used the word πνεμα (spirit) if he had emphatically intended to communicate the idea that our souls and bodies are somehow separate from our service to others. Yet John uses the word κοιλία (belly) instead. It is inconceivable that John made a mistake and intended that we understand the Lord as saying that those who come to Him would thereafter promote natural appetites. So why the metaphorical use then? I believe it is because John must express that which is fully true. The life which we receive when we come to Christ is spiritual life as distinct from natural life. This new life passes through the vessel of the soul and is expressed through the physical body itself.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

The simple reality for believers is this. We yet live in this physical body. We have independent minds, emotions and our will is our own. We are also spirit born of Spirit. We are in Christ seated at the right hand of the Father and Christ is in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we were to claim that the Holy Spirit operates through our own spirit independently of our minds and bodies we would have formed a basis for an aesthetic life in which we deny every natural instinct of the body and every activity of the soul as well. Such a life would be extreme and would lead us into a mystical life with no practical outworking whatsoever. We would be better hermits than husbands, wives, and so on. Yet every true believer regardless of their own lives has a part to play in the church as well. How can we play that part if we are so removed from basic physical realities? And instead lay hold of a mystical ambition in the neglect of our own souls and bodies!

In practical terms we are vulnerable to our own bodies and our own inclination of the natural mind. So long as this remains true, we have no way of denying this reality in order to minister to others nor will it produce an effective attitude in receiving ministry from others. As long as we do not comprehend the way appointed by the Father in heaven through Christ to deal with this problem, we will never truly know the renewing of our minds and the liberty of our bodies. Not only this but we will be vulnerable to deception made possible through our own bodies and the activity of demonic powers working through the air. We will be especially vulnerable to men and women who labour before our very eyes and can reach out in a familiarity of our bodies and speak into our minds through our ears. Deception may well come from without and it comes by way of our eyes and ears as well as by outward and inward sensations of the body itself. Indeed the body is capable of expressing the life of the soul to such acute levels of concentration that it would be very easy to believe that such things are not truly spiritual in nature. Yet beyond that which is outward the Lord has told us that it is that which comes out of the man which corrupts.

We are of course familiar with this verse of Scripture from John 7:38 and we are equally familiar with the idea that believers themselves are instruments of grace and life to those whom we serve. In seeking to understand how to receive from others as well as to give to others in service of Christ the distinction cannot be the atmosphere at all. It is the instrument itself which ought to concern us. If men labour out of their souls and do not know the reality of that precious dependence upon the life of Christ working in them, they will not know the true meaning of the life of Christ working through them. What men and women, labouring in their own strength, are in danger of exhibiting and giving out, is their own thoughts and feelings exercised in the power of their own will. If they are fleshy, unrepentant and worse still, greedy and boastful, they will infect the hearer with their own ideas and the one affected will be taken prisoner by the mechanism of their own flesh. If we seek that which is outward and visible and cannot comprehend the necessity for the strengthening of the inner life on a daily basis through repentance and self denial we may find that we will either reject all of the blessing of the Holy Spirit or lay ourselves open to demonic deception working through a man. This is very different to claiming that demons themselves induce every response as a mechanism for deceiving believers. It is the very fabric of the body itself and its relationship to the soul that facilitates the outcome through the mind. Only in some circumstances can demons invade the mind to such an extent that they can direct that experience to their own ends.

The lesser effect is of course much more common. It is that of believing that a supernatural manifestation which by passes the cognitive volitional function of conscious speech is a true manifestation of the Holy Spirit (Tongues). Some months ago Brenda I said to you in another post that Watchman Nee has referred to the gift of tongues as a bypassing of the mind and I recall that you responded with a request for the reference. I couldn't give it at the time but I have found it in researching this article.

"Let us return to the principle of tongues. Why do we pay attention to this matter? Because in the New Testament Paul compares tongues with prophetic ministry. Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit? Nonetheless the Bible views tongues as being inferior to prophetic ministry. God places the latter above tongues. A prophetic ministry includes in it God’s word plus the prophet himself. In other words, the living water in the words flows out from the depths of the prophet; it does not pour down from heaven. This is a very fundamental principle in the New Testament." The Ministry of God's Word page 182 Electronic Version Page 191 Paper version CFC Publications.

We can see here how Nee clearly understood that tongues bypassed the mind and came directly from the spirit. In this sense Nee speaks of that which "pour[s] down from heaven". Whereas prophecy is very much expressed through the whole man, spirit [light], soul [mind] and body [mouth]. The light by which the prophet is burdened to speak, comes from within, and is expressed as "living water" as it flows out of the spirit in a coequal effort of the man yielding to the Holy Spirit and simultaneously exercising his own will (1 Corinthians 14:32). There is no passivity involved in this reality. Not of tongues and especially not of prophecy. Simply because the gift of tongues cannot of necessity be a product of the mind itself even when it is a true gift of the Holy Spirit, does not mean that there is a need for passivity.

In fact I have been reading this description by Ernst Lohmann for months and took a great deal of meaning from it. To be able to apply that description to most pentecostal situations is a little bit of a stretch to say the least. Except in one profound respect.

FEAR

It is most descriptive of fear.

Perhaps if I have the time I will try to explain what that means to me.

But to finish I would say that the best way of judging spirits is not to go after demonic explanations but to look at men and their visible conduct. In what power are they labouring? If you can judge that righteously by their speech and leading you have a basis for rejecting all deceiving spirits by rejection of the man who labours on their behalf. The rest is just a helmet!

Colin

The 'angel of light' must be very convincing and as he was able to present himself before the throne of God in Job, so he is able to intercept even the holiest of times, and lead us on the wrong path. Especially for those who hearts are set on following Christ to the end of the earth.

For myself, I would not risk letting words come from my mouth of which I had no knowledge of their meaning, should I be cursing myself or denouncing the blessing seeing as the state of holiness is the only place where I would be free from deception.

If we are willing for the sacrifice then the fire will fall, if we are not willing then praying to God to make us willing, will enable it. This is the way it was for me. I was afraid and unable to take that step but a prayer to help make me willing was answered straight away and the fire fell. Scripture promises that it is His to will and fulfill

Indeed "Humility is the bloom and the beauty of holiness” but the full bloom is only there when we are actually walking in holiness and not seeking it though there are degrees beforehand.

Andrew I googled that reference but nothing came up. I have many books by Watchmen Nee and none of them mention tongues.

Quotes from amrkelly

Yet it is an undoubted fact that He does not overwhelm the will and emotions of men and women in order to change them from the outside. Demons do.

Agreed.

The life which we receive when we come to Christ is spiritual life as distinct from natural life. This new life passes through the vessel of the soul and is expressed through the physical body itself.

Agreed. And we display supernatural abilities in the physical realm. For example being able to withstand physical beatings.

If we were to claim that the Holy Spirit operates through our own spirit independently of our minds and bodies we would have formed a basis for an aesthetic life in which we deny every natural instinct of the body and every activity of the soul as well. Such a life would be extreme and would lead us into a mystical life with no practical outworking whatsoever.

Aestheticism equalling mysticism only exists in the non Christian form of mysticism. In Christian mysticism we are fully engaged with the physical realm and the natural life.

What men and women, labouring in their own strength, are in danger of exhibiting and giving out, is their own thoughts and feelings exercised in the power of their own will. If they are fleshy, unrepentant and worse still, greedy and boastful, they will infect the hearer with their own ideas and the one affected will be taken prisoner by the mechanism of their own flesh. If we seek that which is outward and visible and cannot comprehend the necessity for the strengthening of the inner life on a daily basis through repentance and self denial we may find that we will either reject all of the blessing of the Holy Spirit or lay ourselves open to demonic deception working through a man.

Agreed, and wish to reveal that I am not walking in entire sanctification at present and have been undergoing a great trial in case my own thoughts are polluting my words.

Copyright ©1971 Christian Fellowship Publishers, Inc. New York
All Rights Reserved

ISBN 0-935008-28-4

Available from the Publishers at:
11515 Allecingie Parkway Richmond, Virginia 23235
PRINTED IN U.S.A.

The contents of this volume comprise a series of messages which were delivered in Chinese by the author during a training period for workers held in Kuling, Foochow, China, in 1948.

The book is entitled

The Ministry of God’s Word

References to and Nee's thoughts about tongues can be found on:
:

Page 15 (Electronic Index) Section Header "Human Elements in Revelation" Paper index reference page 17 Para 2

"Do we know why Paul does not stress that all believers must speak in tongues in the meeting? Yet are not tongues a gift of God? The explanation is because, in the speaking in tongues, man’s thought is not involved. In other words, human thought is not included. This makes it more like the Old Testament ministry than that of the New; because this is God putting unknown tongues on the lips of man. God’s emphasis in New Testament ministry is in bringing into play the human element in the word"

Page 81 (Electronic Index) Section Header "Pertaining to Comprehensive Interpretation" Paper Index reference page 77 line 3

Comprehensive interpretation is especially used by God in the ministry of His word. Let us see how Peter ministered God’s word on Pentecost. A most wonderful thing happened on that day””the Holy Spirit was poured out and gifts were distributed. Man spoke in tongues and many tongues were spoken.

Page 154 (Electronic Index) Section Header "Light Translates into Thought" Paper Index reference page 146 line 6

"How important is the thought life””the mind””in the ministry of the word. How very essential is our understanding! As we learn to be a minister of the word we will see the significance of "understanding” as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14. That chapter draws our attention especially to this matter of prophesying. Why pay such special attention to it? Because prophesying involves understanding. Why is not speaking in tongues emphasized in this chapter? For the simple reason that it does not involve understanding. Verse 14 points this out: "If I pray with a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.”

Page 182 (Electronic Index) Section Header "The Light Within Need Spoken Words for Delivery" Paper Index page 191 para 2

"Let us return to the principle of tongues. Why do we pay attention to this matter? Because in the New Testament Paul compares tongues with prophetic ministry. Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit? Nonetheless the Bible views tongues as being inferior to prophetic ministry. God places the latter above tongues. A prophetic ministry includes in it God’s word plus the prophet himself. In other words, the living water in the words flows out from the depths of the prophet; it does not pour down from heaven. This is a very fundamental principle in the New Testament."

Thanks though I cannot access the original.

Colin I know you will say 'how can that be?' but you are missing the fact that those who are serving the flesh ie not walking in the Spirit or Spirit baptised, are under the curse of the flesh and therefore even meat for the enemy. And he is especially targeting those who can do most damage to him and your writings seem to me to be of that quality but as yet without power.

God’s emphasis in New Testament ministry is in bringing into play the human element in the word" Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit?

Paul is saying that speaking in tongues was even in the times of the early church, thought to be inferior, and that the true ministry consists of human understanding to what one says :

We therefore declare that a minister of the word ministers with
Spirit-taught words. Not only does the Holy Spirit speak words of
wisdom with my lips; He teaches me how to speak. I am instructed
by the Holy Spirit; I have learned in the fiery furnace; I have the
word. Otherwise, all which is said is merely empty words. How basic
this is: that we need to learn in each dealing. Our words must be
burned into being through fire, else they shall be ineffective. We
cannot comfort those who are sorrowful. What is merely external is
futile. In order to be truly useful, we must be those who have been
dealt with by God.

You can only make others know the body of Christ if you yourself
know what the body of Christ is and also have nurtured that
knowledge in your spirit. You are permitted to use the experience of
others only if you have that thing in your own spirit. If you are an
individualist, having no understanding nor possession of the reality
of the body of Christ, you should not use the experience of other
people. You yourself must be living in the body of Christ, and you
must have nurtured this experience in your spirit before you can
supply others with the words of reality. Otherwise, all that you say
will be mere theories and of no avail. You might consider your
speech as most logical and coherent, but you have not touched the
real thing. And those who hear you are also unable to touch reality.

Nee was I believe a cessationist which is why Calvinists will read him and why Keswick used his writings. His opinion would be that tongue speaking ceased in 70AD and I agree that they faded early. In the above writings he is using the example of what Paul said to the Corinthians merely to show that tongues were even then not thought highly of, in favour of understanding and knowing through experience what one preaches. He does not promote the practise which is seen in charismatic circles any more than he would promote circumcision which continued in the early years. He writes no more about tongues as far as I am aware after reading many of his books.

Thank you to Andrew who sent the full book to me by email.

Paul is saying that speaking in tongues was even in the times of the early church, thought to be inferior, and that the true ministry consists of human understanding to what one says. Brenda

It is interesting that Paul concludes his address in 1 Corinthians chapter fourteen by saying "Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner” (v 39-40).

This latter saying "in an orderly manner” has been interpreted in several ways but to me the singular meaning of it has to do with the proper use of gifts in the churches. Included in this is the instruction that no one should speak in tongues unless there is someone to give the interpretation as well. It must be clear that in saying this Paul is concerned by the possible effect speaking in tongues will have on the unbeliever and the ungifted man or woman in the meeting, as well as the fact that a tongue can have no meaning to anyone at all if there is in fact no interpretation. The saying draws out a reality in the actual meaning of the gift of tongues itself. If a tongue can be interpreted it is clear that the tongue itself as well as its meaning (interpretation) can be understood by many hearers by reason of the interpretation. There could be no interpretation if their was no true substance in the first place. Therefore the gift of tongues is in this reality a true gift, even as the interpretation is true meaning if it is a true gift of the Holy Spirit and not a pseudo manifestation. What makes these gifts true is the fact that they are given by the Holy Spirit. Their substance lies in this fact primarily. So that even when an interpretation is not given the individual who speaks in tongues is nevertheless benefitted by exercising the gift.

The chief thing however which is drawn from Paul’s teaching is that the gift of tongues by reason of the interpretation of tongues, places the gift itself in the prophetic. This is why Paul then goes on to say that the gift of prophecy is a better gift. The foundation for understanding this preference lays in the very fact that when one speaks in a tongue in the meeting and are not able to give the interpretation, only the speaker is benefitted. The gift of tongues alone is not prophetic towards others it is a speaking to God. When interpreted it is a speaking to men. Given the direction of this benefit and the purpose of Paul writing chapter fourteen, it is not difficult to see that speaking in tongues without interpretation amounts to a "childish” use of a gift. The meeting is not for self edification it is for the edification of everyone. The preference then is the gift of prophecy rather than tongues without an interpretation. In short "orderly” is a reference to tongues and then an interpretation of that tongue, and not just tongues.

As far as Nee is concerned the book which I quoted from is wholly to do with how light is translated from it’s reception in the spirit, into the mind and thence to the mouth. It is essentially the word of God is translated through the man or woman into a fruitful outcome for the sake of others. The gift of tongues as Nee realised of necessity does not pass through the mind on its way out of the mouth. Rather it comes directly through the spirit to the mouth. Even the interpretation does not come through the mind as we would imagine this to be, but is also a supernatural ability to give the interpretation by reason of a gift and not by reason of ones own understanding in the first instance. This is one of the chief points Nee is making I believe. That the gift of prophecy which is the better gift of 1 Corinthians chapter fourteen, is of necessity a gift which has its reception in the spirit, but also passes through the mind and then by that means through the mouth. It does not come straight from the spirit of the man or woman but reflects a more mature attitude in ministering to the whole body and not simply ones self. In essence the gift of prophecy is a gift which every one ought to seek but will only ever be utilised by the one who is motivated by a desire to bless others and build them up.

Further Nee was writing and teaching these things long after AD 70. He does not use a qualified form of speech in the things he expresses in this book. He is honest enough to leave the issue of cessation to the Holy Spirit and does not therefore condemn the gifts or despise them as some do.

I am only writing these things because having shown you that Nee does after all teach something important about the gift of tongues, (which thing you refuted flatly) you have found the means to place even this evidence in an unreasonable and presumed context.You yourself have developed an understanding of tongues based primarily on two things. The first is your first encounter with this gift and the fear you felt at that time. The second is a more structured theology which necessitates the rejection of the gift based on an inability to know what the purpose of the gift ws. This is and the book by Jessie Penn-Lewis (War on the Saints) makes substantial in your mind at least the historical certainty that speaking in tongues came into awareness and experience of the saints beginning in the mid 19th century, but especially during the revivals of the early 20th century as a pseudo baptism. It is a convenient tool for that purpose. The thing is Brenda I cannot see that you have actually understood what Jessie Penn-Lewis is really saying.

I doubt that Mrs Penn-Lewis was ever possessed herself and I believe from reading the full text version of the original publication that she took most of what she understood from others. The principle experience she has outside of testimonies which she received or else found in German as well as English publications were reports coming out of the welsh revival. Having then had the opportunity to take Evan Roberts into her home she furthered that understanding and firmed it up by reason of deep concerns which Evan himself had about some of the manifestations which occurred at times in or through the welsh revival. Evan himself was not unaffected by these manifestations and was largely powerless to deal with them, though he did speak against excesses on a number of occasions. It was his own conscience and a deep desire to glorify God that made him vulnerable to these difficulties and eventually led to problems for him, both with his manner of delivery towards the end of the revival, as well as experiencing excessive physical oppression leading to a loss of physical and mental well being by reason of his parasympathetic nervous system. This in the end diminished his intellectual and physical resources to such an extent that it led to a partial mental breakdown.

The story goes on and on Brenda and will not be understood unless the Holy Spirit Himself makes meaning of it. Even then it will not be worked out except by those who have reason to know what possession really means from experience. Mrs Penn-Lewis starts her presentation by speaking of demonic activity in the "periphery” of men and women and ends up speaking about demons taking possession of the very vocal chords of believers. She always applies parenthesis to the word "possession” when used about believers. She highlights the latency of the souls own powers, which to the one who believes this to be evidence of the activity of the Holy Spirit is deceiving, and then explains this as the outcome of mental passivity. This is achieved by mingling and confusing those things which are the true realities of demonic possession of unbelievers, such as the experience of occultist and then asserts a reference from a German pastor who was ministering to one particular woman who was said to be a believer and yet fully possessed from time to time to such an extent that she even blasphemed God with curses which an unbeliever would be hard to replicate. This account includes conversations as well as voluntary verbal projections from the mouth of this woman in a voice "not of her own”. To say that all of this is difficult to make sense of by your a believer with no knowledge of the occult or a direct experience of having been possessed and then delivered in their own experience of becoming a believer from having been an occultist. Clearly the term "possession” itself needs to be the focus when reading Mrs Penn-Lewis’s book. To take a popular understanding of the term would give rise to a significant basis for confusion.

And yet generally speaking the sum of Mrs Penn-Lewis’s belief, despite her use of evidence, is stated openly as not amounting to spiritual possession. Hence the use of the term "peripheral” in her assessment of these things. Nee in quoting her takes care to express his understanding from the point of view of agreeing with her assessment of the latency of the soul’s powers as a source of deception, yet not attributing to demon’s more power than they have. For Nee the emphasis is the heart of an individual desiring those things which are intended for the edification of the body for oneself rather than as a means to serve others. For many believers experience and personal gratification form the basis of vulnerability to deception. Nee speaks of having "wrong experiences”. Experience may mislead and thereby deceive the individual. "The Ministry of God’s Word” which I sent you is a competent and sound presentation of the need for maturity in the body and that by revelation or light given, worked out in the mind and by that means given to the body through ministry of the word. In this sense Nee includes all members in this calling and speaks of all members as needing to have such a mind. When he deals with the issue of deception, and especially self deception he treats it by a separate means and that has been published in the "Latent Power of the Soul”. What he does not do is to confuse the two things of demonic activity and true body ministry by intertwining those things of the unregenerate with those things of the regenerate. Nor does he confuse demonic activity with the soul itself in the way Mrs Penn-Lewis has managed to do. I said before that she has been mistreated on this point and now here I am saying it also. I suppose the difference for me is that having been possessed for years from childhood until my mid 20’s I can see the undoubted realities of much of what she has written about. Having been delivered by the Holy Spirit in the day I first believed, and further having been delivered of the root of its effect in my soul some seven days later, I can understand how Mrs Penn-Lewis makes the connection between "peripheral” demonic influence through the mind, leading to physical manifestations even to the point of personalities expressing themselves, and at the same time confirming that demons cannot posses the spirits of men. Demons cannot posses the spirits of any men, regenerate or unregenerate. They don’t have that power or authority. Only God has that power and authority to communicate with men’s spirits. Even so the subject is a difficult one to pin down.

The very reason why Mrs Penn-Lewis has suffered censure by some publishers is because she failed to make a true distinction between the spirit, as well as between souls of men behaving like demons and demons themselves. Men can behave like demons including true believers if they press falsehood and sin too far. Demons can "alight on the house” they cannot posses its inner parts. They can press the door bell and harass you until you open the door in fear. But they cannot take possession of your full intention to resist them. They can put their foot in the door, but they do not have authority to seize all the goods.They can deceive you into hurting yourself but they cannot destroy you. Only you yourself can determine to serve your own desires and persist into rebellion and anger towards God, then it may be possible to serve their purposes. Then they will make a nest on the porch and multiply their influence in your natural mind.

My original purpose in making the post about Andrew Strom’s video was to draw out this very point. If we attribute to demons more power than they really have and apply that to believers we will form the very basis of fear which physiologically speaking is the same mechanism of the physical body, namely the autonomic nervous system in particular, which Mrs Penn-Lewis highlighted when she quoted from Ernst Lohmann. Although I made the connection in my original post between the quotation in "War on the Saints” taken from a book by Ernst Lohmann and the Kundalini Spirit which Andrew Strom speaks off, I did this because there is in fact a link. The link is Jessie Penn-Lewis herself and what she believed. I will post on this later but I can say in simplicity that when Andrew Strom speaks of a "spirit of kundalini” being essentially another spirit which produces false manifestations attributed to the Holy Spirit, he is speaking from the perspective of a man who believes in the full benefit and reception of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So he is not asserting that these "false” manifestations are just symptomatic of a fuller deception in the way Mrs Penn-Lewis does.

When I looked into the origins of the Kundalini of Hinduism and its relationship through Yoga to the physical body, especially the part played by the autonomic nervous system, I was immediately reminded of this quote of Ernst Lohmann which Mrs Penn-Lewis placed so much importance on as a way of explaining how passivity could be achieved in believers and thereby the reception of demonic spirits. Clearly Mrs Penn-Lewis was primarily concerned about a false baptism of the Holy Spirit. In seeking to understand the correlation between the present deception sweeping the church and the concerns which Mrs Penn-Lewis expressed at the beginning of the popular pentecostal revivals of the early 20th century, I have found myself asking the question what the physical relationship is beyond a common and obvious belief by two parties that demons infiltrate the church and have a part to play in manifestations which are then attributed to the Holy Spirit. The obvious answer would be to simply say that the link is the spirits themselves. Yet I cannot accept that this is the full answer.

Hello amrkelly,

Demons cannot possess the spirits of any men, regenerate or unregenerate. They don’t have that power or authority. Only God has that power and authority to communicate with men’s spirits. Even so the subject is a difficult one to pin down.

I agree that Demons cannot possess the spirits of Christians since they have become one with the Spirit of Christ. I am not sure about unbelievers. Also, when Believers have strongholds in their lives by "giving place to the Enemy", do you think possibly that demons who actually desire a body can "nest" in a particular area of one's body oppressing their spirit and soul seeking to gain further entrance and control over their mind, will and emotions?

The reason I ask this is because of this parable.They seem to want a body. Do you think they just fly after Believers and strongholds are only mental or psychological weaknesses or do they seek to gain physical entrance and lodge in their body?

Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Just like God, Satan desires worship from us and just like God, Satan desires to inhabit us, too. Yet, with all of his counterfeits, his indwelling of man is also a counterfeit since he cannot dwell in our spirit (he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit) and be one with us (Christ in us and we in Him). He can only dwell in the body and oppress our spirit and soul.

Jessie-Penn Lewis has an interesting appendix on the counterfeits of Satan. Anyway, I believe their goal is to take up residence in a man, saved or unsaved. I won't argue and find your posts interesting.

Here is Jessie Penn-Lewis' "True Workings of God, and Counterfeits of Satan". Read number 3.
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/TrueWorkings.html

And then, if you look at footnote 103, you will find this. Here is a link and an excerpt.
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Chap05-2.html#103
It is important clearly to recognize the distinction between the "obsession," or influence of the counterfeit presence; and the "possession," or access obtained, which follows the acceptance of the obsession, or influence from without.

The distinction and the characteristics may be briefly described as follows:--(1) Obsession: an influence from outside; a counterfeit presence of God as an influence upon the person, to which he opens himself in mind and body.

(2) Possession: the counterfeit of a person within (after obtaining a footing), generally as love.note 16 Absolute abandonment to this of the affections and will. Exquisite feelings in physical and soulish realm, with spirit untouched. The man thinks all is "spiritual," when it is really the sensuous life in a spiritual form.

The word obsession has been exaggerated in modern use, and symptoms, or manifestations truly belonging to possession, are frequently put down to it.

OBSESSION AND ITS CAUSE
"Obsession" means an evil spirit, or spirits, hovering around, and influencing a man with the object of obtaining a footing in him, and gaining possession, in however small a degree. If these influences are yielded to, it must result in possession, e.g., if an evil spirit counterfeits the presence of God, and comes upon the man as an influence only, it may be described as obsession; but when a footing is gained in him, it is "possession,"note 17 because the obsessing spirits have gained access, and possess the ground they hold, up to the extent of the ground given.

Also, and this is off-topic. I have been following yours and Brenda's posts about holiness and I came upon this chart. I did not know that Keswick is associated with Calvinism. Is this chart correct?
http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/Holiness.htm

Blessings and thank you.

Hello amrkelly,

Demons cannot possess the spirits of any men, regenerate or unregenerate. They don’t have that power or authority. Only God has that power and authority to communicate with men’s spirits. Even so the subject is a difficult one to pin down.

I agree that Demons cannot possess the spirits of Christians since they have become one with the Spirit of Christ. I am not sure about unbelievers. Also, when Believers have strongholds in their lives by "giving place to the Enemy", do you think possibly that demons who actually desire a body can "nest" in a particular area of one's body oppressing their spirit and soul seeking to gain further entrance and control over their mind, will and emotions?

The reason I ask this is because of this parable.They seem to want a body. Do you think they just fly after Believers and strongholds are only mental or psychological weaknesses or do they seek to gain physical entrance and lodge in their body?

Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Just like God, Satan desires worship from us and just like God, Satan desires to inhabit us, too. Yet, with all of his counterfeits, his indwelling of man is also a counterfeit since he cannot dwell in our spirit (he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit) and be one with us (Christ in us and we in Him). He can only dwell in the body and oppress our spirit and soul.

Jessie-Penn Lewis has an interesting appendix on the counterfeits of Satan. Anyway, I believe their goal is to take up residence in a man, saved or unsaved. I won't argue and find your posts interesting.

Here is Jessie Penn-Lewis' "True Workings of God, and Counterfeits of Satan". Read number 3.
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/TrueWorkings.html

And then, if you look at footnote 103, you will find this. Here is a link and an excerpt.
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Chap05-2.html#103
It is important clearly to recognize the distinction between the "obsession," or influence of the counterfeit presence; and the "possession," or access obtained, which follows the acceptance of the obsession, or influence from without.

The distinction and the characteristics may be briefly described as follows:--(1) Obsession: an influence from outside; a counterfeit presence of God as an influence upon the person, to which he opens himself in mind and body.

(2) Possession: the counterfeit of a person within (after obtaining a footing), generally as love.note 16 Absolute abandonment to this of the affections and will. Exquisite feelings in physical and soulish realm, with spirit untouched. The man thinks all is "spiritual," when it is really the sensuous life in a spiritual form.

The word obsession has been exaggerated in modern use, and symptoms, or manifestations truly belonging to possession, are frequently put down to it.

OBSESSION AND ITS CAUSE
"Obsession" means an evil spirit, or spirits, hovering around, and influencing a man with the object of obtaining a footing in him, and gaining possession, in however small a degree. If these influences are yielded to, it must result in possession, e.g., if an evil spirit counterfeits the presence of God, and comes upon the man as an influence only, it may be described as obsession; but when a footing is gained in him, it is "possession,"note 17 because the obsessing spirits have gained access, and possess the ground they hold, up to the extent of the ground given.

Also, and this is off-topic. I have been following yours and Brenda's posts about holiness and I came upon this chart. I did not know that Keswick is associated with Calvinism. Is this chart correct?
http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/Holiness.htm

Blessings and thank you.

The first is your first encounter with this gift and the fear you felt at that time. The second is a more structured theology which necessitates the rejection of the gift based on an inability to know what the purpose of the gift ws. This is and the book by Jessie Penn-Lewis (War on the Saints) makes substantial in your mind at least the historical certainty that speaking in tongues came into awareness and experience of the saints beginning in the mid 19th century, but especially during the revivals of the early 20th century as a pseudo baptism. It is a convenient tool for that purpose. The thing is Brenda I cannot see that you have actually understood what Jessie Penn-Lewis is really saying.

I did not feel fear when I first encountered tongue speaking. My initial impression from my spirit was that it was not of God, and I believe this is quite common. The trouble is, that after we receive an initial impression in our spirit, we go on to use our minds and if we are attending a church which condones it, we will interpret that first impression as being wrong, because, after all, these leaders and people we have just met are very loving and seem to be convinced of it, so therefore we must be wrong - its the devil trying to stop us. That is not how he works however. He works through our reasoning not our spiritual discernment.

I have been a believer for quite a while before I actually heard it, being in a Reformed Church. I had already decided that Calvinism was in error so was open to rethink my beliefs. I set about to do my own in depth scriptural study on the subject meanwhile praying about it.

My conclusion is that the practise is the result of the pseudo baptism of the Spirit and which is what the traditional holiness teachers believed. I came to my decision independently with no pressure to fit in anywhere.

I believe that the practise has occurred throughout church history but it only became mainline in the last 100 years or so. When the traditional holiness teachers were around, it was not so much an issue as it is today, as it was on the fringes of the church. This is why there was not a strong stand and teaching against it in their writings. If they did believe in it and practise it themselves, then there would have been teaching or at least mentions of it but there is none. In their day, it was a given that it was the practice of small groups who had gone off the rails, or had never been on them.

Watchman Nee did not do any teaching at all about the practise of tongue speaking in the church today. He speaks of it in reference to what was happening in the early church, where Paul had to exercise discipline over the matter, but that does not mean that he thought that it is for today. Paul did not ban it even though it was causing problems as he knew that 'tongues will cease' and left it to God to bring that about. His concern as you say was for order.

Nee was in agreement with Jessie Penn-Lewis over tongues, and the others involved with early Keswick and yes indeed the chart is correct and it has been Calvinist from the start. Traditional holiness teaching does not accept tongues but accepts the other gifts.

The purpose of it in the beginning was for a sign for the Jews that Babylon had been reversed, in the same way that physical healing, occurring at large was a sign that the Healer had come, as spoken of in the OT as the Healer of backslidden people of God. He would restore them. These signs faded as time went on. Today, very few people are healed.

My only interested in demonology would be if I was in ministry, and besides, it is not an issue once one has been Spirit baptised where demons must flee as they have no ground left when a man is freed from sin. If men sin then demons have ground and the greatest damage they do is to deceive.

If Jessie Penn-Lewis had her theology right, and had not got stuck halfway, not accepting eradication of sin, which unfortunately was the problem with Keswick, then I don't think that she would have got so obsessed with demons.

Colin

If you received at one time, an experience which you interpreted as the baptism of the Spirit and which gave you expressions of speech which bypass your mind, and you wish to go by your experiences, rather than listen to those who did achieve what you are seeking, and at the same time, receive discernment of spirits which enabled them to know the true from the false baptism, and you still think that you have not been deceived, then there is nothing more that I can say. The fact that you will not even test what you have received by ceasing from it, repenting of the false baptism, and allowing God to guide you into receiving a pure heart, shows that you think you are beyond deception and therefore of an unteachable spirit. The testing would have cost you and lost you nothing. So be it. What a loss for the kingdom.

Evil spirit's counterfeit, as the occasion serves them, each Person of the Trinity, and can thus obtain access, and become in and with a man in manifestations given to the senses, in which the real spirit-sense may have no part. Jessie Penn-Lewis

The above statement even though it appears to speak of physical possession may not in fact speak of physical possession. I realise that this claim is difficult to reconcile with the overwhelming sense of the words, but "access" does not mean possession. One may find access to many things by reason of sight, hearing, physical as well as psychical projections and a multitude of other ways without every possessing anything. A man's very words spoken aloud give access to others minds and even affect others' minds. Yet as every sorcerer knows, words spoken of a certain kind, embolden and energise that mans own mind and body and not simply other men. Those who do prophecy in the context of say the NRA prophets are most likely exercising the same principle and I would say without doubt the men and the women who speak in this way do go beyond their own comprehension in the things which they "prophecy". In doing so the outworking is not only projected into the air where it is taken up by demonic spirits labouring in that power and authority, but it also shapes the man himself and makes of him a more wicked man. Sorcery and sorceric credentials are evidenced by hidden realities as well as visible realities. These are the deeds accomplished in time, but they are also the changed man who becomes physically caught up in the realisation of the power of sorceric speech. This produces the "blood rush" which is met with understanding, not by reason of certainty, but by reason of sympathetic familiarity with the body itself.

By such words one can provoke outcomes both emotional and physical, infer subtle meanings and even change minds, and yet never by one measure posses the man. I have understood the underlying reality of this for more than 25 years both from the position of the physiology of fear as the fountain of possession, as well as knowing the reality of practising sorcery and being possessed as an unbeliever without any proper sense of it. I don't want to go ahead of the Holy Spirit in seeking to explain this, yet I have a burden to do that very thing. Perhaps in the end I will find that I have said nothing more than Mrs Penn-Lewis has said herself or many others who have understanding of demonic realities yet without having experienced them in their own bodies and souls. The thing with Mrs Penn-Lewis which really makes me search to understand her true position is not because she may be misunderstood but because of her use of the Ernst Lohmann quotation. It is in that usage where I believe Mrs Penn-Lewis "embraced the physiology of fear" and not necessarily the true and substantive reality of the gifts of the Holy Spirit given today. I would say that even true prophecy can and does stumble into the realm of the soul itself and by that means the very body is affected by reason of cognitive sympathetic responses. When these responses are realised they become the evidence of what is believed true and spiritual discernment is lost. This is what Mrs Penn-Lewis cannot accept.

http://emotion.caltech.edu/dropbox/bi133/files/Critchley.pdf

The difference is of an incredible magnitude yet it is a difference of power. Is it the Holy Spirit working through the spirits of men made alive in Christ? Or is it the gifts of the Holy Spirit exercised foolishly and carnally, yet not being possession in so far as it is a man and not a demon. The man's words will always fall to the ground if they lack power and his intention is sound, even though he may speak the truth and exercise sound doctrine. This is because what is given is received in the mind and can do nothing in respect of spiritual growth. You cannot train men to exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit as though an academy would prove it.

I am not concerned about whether demons can counterfeit spiritual realities nor even to disprove what has been said about Mrs Penn-Lewis, nor am I concerned about the agreement to censor her books. To be honest the excesses and doctrines in many churches can be so gross and the deceptions so grave that it seems almost at odds with necessity to press any point that appears to contradict such a good work as War on the Saints. On the other hand I truly wonder if Jessie Penn-Lewis has not been misunderstood in some very profound way. At the moment I cannot see that she has taught that demons actually posses believers in the overwhelming sense which has been attributed to her book. Perhaps it is just vanity on my part because in considering your second link it is undoubtably true that she is asserting a definite physical possession.

"Obsession" means an evil spirit, or spirits, hovering around, and influencing a man with the object of obtaining a footing in him, and gaining possession, in however small a degree. If these influences are yielded to, it must result in possession, e.g., if an evil spirit counterfeits the presence of God, and comes upon the man as an influence only, it may be described as obsession; but when a footing is gained in him, it is "possession,"note 17 because the obsessing spirits have gained access, and possess the ground they hold, up to the extent of the ground given. Jessie Penn-Lewis

I want to be very careful with what I say. I could give numbers of reasons why I ought to believe that saints can be possessed, yet I do not believe it in my spirit. As for the physical body itself well that is the very heart of the matter, but it is not as we imagine it to be. It is not the arm or the leg or the hand or the blind eye, it is the central nervous system, the somatic nervous system and the autonomic nervous system. Of these it is the autonomic nervous system with its sympathetic and parasympathetic division which has to do with those responses of the body which are said to be subconscious. These autonomic responses participate in self consciousness through behaviour pathology and it is this behavioural pathology which the man can discern and agree with or else deny. Until this behavioural layer is outworked there is no possibility of any kind of volitive participation which could have moral or spiritual consequences. If this were not so we would indeed be in the very grip of possession and with no possibility of resistance because it would be achieved by a means subconscious and out of our will. This is why at that time of writing based on late 19th century these processes whilst they were anatomically recognised, they were not understood very well. Even today the relationship between the peripheral nerves of the skin and muscles is better understood than are the autonomic nerves which interplay with consciousness. Volitive actions based on sensory interpretations can be a basis for demonic efforts to influence a man through the air. The "wind on the skin" example by Mrs Penn-Lewis is one such example. There are also internal physiological and pathological sensations as well which are felt in the body and are interpreted with the conscious mind to mean "something" good or ill; dependant on the accompanying attack on the mind.

If you experience a wind moving across your neck or face or hand for example how will you interpret it? If you are taught that these are evidences of God's presence (or inexplicably "think" that it is) then you may well believe them to be the evidence of ~God's presence. The relationship between the volition and reception of believing that this experience was evidence of God's presence is not of itself sufficient to give a basis for a demonic agents to do anything, even when the physical stimulus was produced by a secondary agent (demon). After all what is deception biblically? It is not party tricks of the devil! It is doctrinal deception which harms. What then if this "trick" has been produced through the power of the air which is in the dominion of Satan? Will this automatically mean that you will give ground to Satan and thence to possession? It simply is not true that this alone will form the basis for possession.

The difference between mental anguish and ordinary fear, is the difference between the ordinary "fight or flight" mechanism of the adrenal medulla (Gland function) which is directly connected to the sympathetic trunk of the autonomous nervous system. It also produces peristalsis of the bowel. This is the "pit of the stomach" reference of Ernst Lohmann quoted by Jessie Penn-Lewis. This is why although the quote was an attempt to describe the central nervous system and at least one underlying pathological outworking, the essence of the quote is a description of the physiology and psychology of fear. At least that is what it says to me. In any case all this being outside the will or volition of the individual puts it in the realm of what Mrs Penn-Lewis calls passivity. It is not somnambulistic passivity (hypnosis) in reality but physical passivity induced by body chemistry attendant to an external stimulus which whether it is believed to be the evidence of God or not, the stimulus produces anxiety or mild fear. How that plays out in the conscious mind will determine how severe the effect is and what your behaviour will turn out to be. It is worth noting that the adrenal medulla has no parasympathetic link to the autonomic nervous system. Once triggered the only thing that will stop further release of adrenaline and dopamine is either a loss of consciousness or else a conscious acceptance of the stimulus as "no longer a threat". In short the fear passes. This is the thing which Mrs Penn-Lewis is describing I believe and it is not a basis for possession. Even though relief from fear or anxiety is a good thing, the dopamine which is produced in a smaller measure than is adrenaline, has a kick in the tail, in so much as this is the hormone which produces physical well being. All of this activity is in the blood stream.

Demonic ariel activity can produce consequences by reason of self consciousness and the physiology of the body itself, (interacting with the physical world, including phonological and physiognomic stimuli), and serves as a rod for the conduit of the soul itself-producing outcomes which seem miraculous. Yet never so much as a hairs touch of flesh on flesh is necessary. It can be completely of words, it can be a look and it can be in silence, in darkness and almost robbed of all stimuli. All that is required is knowledge and a foundation laid from the dawn of time. In short this is what is called witchcraft. It is the same in meaning in Galatians 5:20 where the word for sorcery or witchcraft is φαρμακεία (pharmakia) from which we derive the word pharmacy and chemistry. It is also worth noting the singular reality of Galatians 5:20 as well. This is not a sorcery of demons being described, it is a fruit of the flesh. It speaks of the upside of the processes I have described above being turned to the benefit of the individual by means of self induction and control of ones own chemistry. Some attempt this through aesthetic practises and others induce it through drug abuse especially with opiates. The former is typical of Yogic practises and the latter is typical of sorcery. In reality they both amount to the same reality of physiology.

One would have to ask in this arrangement how it is possible to turn this "blood chemistry" to ones advantage? For the Yogic it is essentially in stimulating through breathing and posture (Chakras) or ganglionic junctions of the central nervous system and the autonomic nervous system. For the sorcerer it is in utterances which of themselves by reason of the ear and the eye and the will, produce sympathetic chemical benefits which attend to the very neurology of the brain itself and thence into a "blood rush" by which the bodies own chemistry is pressed around the whole body and produces a demonic man. Think of the times you have seen videos of so-called prophets of God who are clearly stimulated in visibility of their boastings and by their mouths drive themselves and others to reckless abandonment and often blasphemy of God. By this means do these same men curse others and either by release of their own supernatural abilities of their souls or else by cooperation of demons do waste others even unto death.

Do demons desire to posses by physical means? Absolutely they do. I agree that many of these spirits crave a physical body in remembrance of their own bodies now destroyed. Others however do labour in the air and they are willing and able by reason of a paradigm of deception attending to their own ambitions, press on against the certainty of their eventual torment and eternal part in the lake of fire.

These are looking for the man who will not yield himself up to a physical possession ordinarily. The truly terrible and shocking reality is that the most wicked men are often those who have known the truth in their upbringing. This was especially true at the time Mrs Penn-Lewis was born. It is especially true of British, American and European middle class men and women. Their grounding in the Christian Faith made certain their rebellion by reason of disobedience to the gospel itself of such men Aleister Crowley is a good example.

Religion makes for the very worst kind of man when he has the means to explore his rebellion. He goes to the East and brings the philosophies of devils home in his bag. He can become such a demonic man that he can give the demons a run for their money and lay hold of them in a torment of words by which they will either succeed in killing him or he will control them by Satan requiring it for his especial purposes. In the end it will be found to have been permitted by the Father in order to fill up the sins of men and complete the rounds of wickedness. Such is the scale of what lies at the back of real deception and not simply ignorance or error. It certainly cannot be as simple a matter as passivity. It takes a real determination of wickedness to be fruitful to the evil one in anything other than a passing way. I still have not worked out precisely why I believe that demons cannot truly influence the majority of believers beyond psycho-physiological induction. But I do not believe it.

To embrace false doctrines is not the same as being possessed. It is the same as being deceived. On the other hand the false prophet, the beast and Satan, all of whom are not deceived at all, are seen to be in possession of demonic spirits which they use for their own purposes. That ought to tell us something about Satan which we have not considered. Where does his strength and tenacity lie? Not in his ruined frame that is for sure! He is not driven by his own body. He is driven by his ambition. The principle effect of unclean spirits as seen in the New Testament was evidenced by physical and mental illness. Yet Satan, the false prophet and the man of sin all have this power in their own mouths. They control the demons and the demons do not control them.

Consider that when Satan tempted Christ the sum of it was a promise of the whole treasure and dominion of the kingdoms of the earth. The requirement was to accept Satan as God. How is it possible for Satan to speak to the One Whom he saw and comprehended in the day he was created a covering cherub? The demons knew that Christ was the Son of Man. The Lord's very presence tormented them and filled them with dread fear. Yet Satan their prince sought for the man, Christ Jesus to be his instrument. If he had laid hold of Christ he would have in that hour achieved his ambitions. In having the Christ, he would have had the power of the Father in his hands. When believers do a similar thing and serve Satan ignorantly they give the power of the kingdom itself to his purposes without which he could not achieve his ambitions. Yet he needs men of renowned and not just any man. He needs apostate men who have the power and the life of God and Christ working in them but have made ruin of it through sin and rebellion. These men are the men who are coming and their ambitions and determinations will not necessitate the activity of demons in the way this is ordinarily understood.

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. Revelation 16:13-14

As for the original post and the video by Andrew Strom, my concern, if that is the right word, is not in the validity of recognising the substance of deception which is sweeping the churches in the West, and in other parts as well, but it is in the specific presentation that this is a direct evidence of kundalini "type" spirits invading the church. If we take it as true that the church is not the thing which is visible, but is ever composed of those who have truly believed and been born again of the Spirit of God, we would have to say that it is reasonable to make more use of Scripture and recognise that these spirits are not sweeping into the church, they are sweeping into the dominion and influence of the kingdom of heaven itself. It is an invasion of the the dominion of the kingdom. If they are counterfeiting the things of the Holy Spirit it is because they must do in order to be unseen. Who is their resource in all of this? It is the tares and the hirelings who lead them. It is the world, it is a field and it is like unto the kingdom of heaven, which kingdom do men seek to take by violence. It is a veil which separates the kingdom of men and Satan and the Kingdom of Heaven and Christ and those who are in Him. It is only necessary for the veil to be removed and the Kingdom will come into visibility, even by Christ Himself coming into visibility. Those who seek to take the Kingdom by violence do so precisely because the kingdom of heaven is near by. It is within those who truly believe yet its power is the outworking and its visibility. It is this ambition which Satan has. He cannot create a world of his own. He must labour in this world and by the means of true knowledge slowly and persistently deceive men and women into accepting his rule and dominion over their lives. Who is better placed to assist in this endeavour than the one who has known the truth but rejected it.

Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. John 6:70-71

Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me Psalm 41"9

After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly.” John 13:27

Long before Satan entered into Judas he was already called a devil. Judas is before time called "My close friend." Is it likely that Jesus became the friend of a devil? Jesus became the friend of a man born of a woman. How was he able to become "a devil" before he is possessed by Satan? I have no doubt that some would say that it was because he was possessed by demons. If this is true at what point was he so possessed? Was it whilst he was casting our demons by the power of the name of Jesus? If so then Satan's kingdom is divided after all. Is it really likely that Judas was possessed before the morsel of bread which was given him, dipped in the wine? It is only after the morsel that Judas is in finality lost. Only after he is lost can Satan posses him. In finality Jesus speaks to the Father "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12