Please, need some help here.

Brother, I am not sure about Norman Grubb, but I do know that the idea that hell is not eternal is an idea that is not foreign to Pentecostal ranks. The movement I grew up in was Parham's original work, and they very adamantly teach a doctrine of destruction of the wicked. They believe that those who are not born again will be cast into the lake of fire and that they will be totally destroyed, rather than burning forever.

As I have studied scripture, I have actually found as many references that would lead to this conclusion as I have to lead to the conclusion that people burn forever.

What is true is that hell is a real place. To believe that unbelievers are destroyed in hell is a far cry from Rob Bell's universalism. Our is not all that strange an idea really. And, although I realize that for some the teaching of eternal torment is ingrained to the degree that it is non-negotiable, I have to say that I have not yet landed on either side of the fence yet. Hell is real. The wicked will be judged. But I still find to many scriptures that indicate that the wicked might be totally destroyed to abandon that idea.

So I think you will find that what you are hearing about Grubb its not so strange. Just don't assume that a belief that hell does not imply eternal torment, but rather a total destruction, is in any way connected to the extreme error of universalism. That would be a lot like saying that if I do not believe that all fire engines are red then I am saying that fire trucks are not real at all.

Found this

A debate is currently raging in the Evangelical world over the writings of Rob Bell. Bell, a mega-church pastor, teaches that hell will ultimately be unoccupied and that all human beings who have ever lived will ultimately be saved on the basis of the atonement-sacrifice of Yeshua. As always, the arguments for and against this view are passionately engaged and sometimes treated as if this is a new viewpoint. It is anything but new. I studied on Universalism over 40 years ago in seminary classes. Several theologians asserted this false doctrine in the 18th century. In the last generation, Norman Grubb, the great missionary biographer (Rees Howell and C. T. Studd), fostered a oneness-unity movement teaching this doctrine. According to Grubb, all will eventually be saved and be one or in unity.

http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-aug11.php

I started to listen to a sermon on sermonindex called hell part 1 and 2 by Norman Grubb.. I stopeed listening as personally believe he is a gnostic so be careful..

It seems to be the way things work that in every Christian hero there is a little bit of Dork. Norman Grubb came on the scene and wowed the crowds, then incurred the fire of his critics. He then went out to defend his ideas and the fight was on. But he was not the first, won't be the last.

A.A. Allen was one of those wild preachers who stormed the heavens when he preached, saw the miracles to follow, went back to his hotel and drank himself into oblivion. What is with that??

Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, the list is long and colorful. All brought something to the table, all had some failing in someone's eyes. It is ultimately you and Jesus, but the testimonies of many will help shape your final faith picture.

Listen to them all, find the meat, spit out the bones- and learn stuff! You will by the Holy Spirit be drawn to truth, but a bitter attitude toward any of God's servants will only hinder your vision.

Such a big help I am. When Norman was alive and preaching, I was listening to other people. Sorry...

On Norman Grubb - I don't know much to comment on his doctrinal leanings, but here's a rebuttal to the claim on that Tikkun Ministries website:

"In the twentieth century there was a movement called "union life.” Via the teachings and writings of Norman Grubb, there was an emphasis on the Christian’s spiritual union with Christ. A periodical magazine entitled "Union Life” was published for many years. It heralded the Christian’s union
identity with Christ, as did Grubb’s last two books, Who Am I? and Yes I Am. Regrettably, the "union life” movement fractured and splintered in the latter part of the twentieth century, prior to the death of Norman Grubb, and much to his chagrin and sorrow. Failing to maintain a balance of emphasis on regenerative union identity with Christ, the various splinter groups developed divergent emphases:

(1) one group taught that "union life” is contained in all men in monistic universalism.

(2) one fellow taught that "union life” is ordained for all in inevitable predetermined fatalism.

(3) one group taught that "union life” is retained through identification, repudiation, and suppression of sin in group accountability.

(4) one group taught that "union life” is attained experientially through the discipline of "centering prayer.”

Somewhere along the chain of whispers, they all heard and expressed a distorted message, leaving only scattered remnants who understand that "union life” is obtained by receiving the Spirit of Christ into one’s spirit by faith and continuing to derive all from the One who is Life ”“ Jesus Christ." (James Fowler's "Union with Christ")

Also, here's a previous discussion on Grubb on SermonIndex: https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=44385&forum=36

I am not sure that this seeming paradox in scripture is that difficult to understand: That is, is hell eternal or not ? We commonly refer to the end of our lives here on the earth as "stepping out of time." Albert Einstein proved that time does not exist as we know it. If time ends, as we know it, at our death, then the "time" the wicked spend in hell has to be something measured in a manner we are yet to understand. So hell could be called "eternal death" simply because it is outside of time and governed by our King. He is sovereign over all things and is Himself outside of time and yet inside of time. He sees the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. This is why his word and prophecies are infallible and without error. How long do the wicked experience death in hell? How long is a carnal body dead ? How long is the state of death itself ? A long time.
I am not trying to enter into a debate -- rather I am hopeful this information may help you in the dialogue you have with your friend who rejects the biblical concepts of hell.

Robert Schullers Hour Of Power Show With Norman Grubb

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=1494

twayneb wrote:

"What is true is that hell is a real place. To believe that unbelievers are destroyed in hell is a far cry from Rob Bell's universalism. Our is not all that strange an idea really. And, although I realize that for some the teaching of eternal torment is ingrained to the degree that it is non-negotiable, I have to say that I have not yet landed on either side of the fence yet. Hell is real. The wicked will be judged. But I still find to many scriptures that indicate that the wicked might be totally destroyed to abandon that idea."

Thank you for pointing this out. To be fair to the more mainstream evangelical Universal Reconciliationists, they DO DO DO believe in a hell with real punishment and real pain-- they just believe that eventually it will be empty.

To be fair to Rob Bell, I have read (well actually listened) to his book Love Wins, and in that book at least he does not come our and say what he actually believes, although it is obvious from the way the book is written that he leans away from the traditional view of hell being a place of eternal conscious torment.

I think it is important to point out that neither a believer in Universal Reconciliation or Conditional Immortality (annihilationism) denies the existence of a real hell. The proponent of UR believes that God's punishments are ALWAYS remedial because that is the nature of God. He is never spiteful or vindictive. The believer in Conditional Immortality believes that the unbeliever will be punished in hell as long as is required as determined by God, who alone is fit to judge. Then, they are snuffed out of existence. No eternal torment for just a lifetime of sin.

I too am on the fence on this issue. I have looked into this for several years now and I do lean away from the traditional view of hell because I believe there is better scriptural support for the other two views.

The problem with many evangelicals is that they are afraid to give this issue a fair hearing. They will quickly call a person who denies the traditional view of hell a heretic, but they will not research for themselves or read the main proponents of the alternate views to see how they support their case. I think intellectual honesty requires that we at least know how they argue their case before we simply call them a bunch of liberals who deny what the Bible says. I can assure you that they can make as good of a biblical case for UR or CI as mainstream evangelicals can make for the traditional view.

TMK

I do want to make it very clear that my comments were NOT intended to give the impression that I believe in any form of universalism. The doctrine of universalism is, in my opinion, total error and absolutely anti-Bible. If Grubb taught that all would eventually be reconciled and saved, he had to deny clear scriptural teaching to do so. I merely meant that some still teach that Hell is a place where the wicked are destroyed completely rather than burning forever. On either case, they still bear God's judgment for their sins.

Many many of us have reached that same conclusion from reading the Scriptures, searching the meanings of the original words, and just knowing the Savior of the World. Forgive your enemies? Bless those who curse you? Do good to those who abuse you? You are asked to do it...but He won't do it Himself?! Eternal punishment and torment is not justice in anyone's reasonable thoughts. It's religious madness; completely unscriptural along with the silly "translation" of the Scriptural "hades", "sheol", "gehenna", and "tartarus" all into the hideous idea of the Babylonian/Egyptian/Greek "hell" of the idolatrous nations. I personally find the rabid adherence to that blasphemous concept by orthodox christianity astounding. Just one man's opinion.

If Hell has a termination point, the pressure comes off for world evangelism. Just let 'em go, it'll all work out in the end. Let's grab a cup of coffee and listen to some tunes.

Not buying it. Jesus' description of "Where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" is sufficient for me. Jesus always reassured His disciples that He was giving them complete information, and there is no clear monologue where Hell is described as anything less than eternal separation from the Kingdom of God. My own perception of Hell is that it is the best a loving God can do for souls that do not want Him.

Those who reject the provisions God has made for eternal life are subject to permanent separation. Never been there of course, but I take this subject very seriously. Eternity is a long time, and a bad place to place an unsure bet.

sidewalk:

I think understand exactly what you are saying. And, if I thought the goal of salvation was an eternal destination I would probably agree wholeheartedly. But I see the destination as the icing on the cake and not the substance. There was an enmity between God and man because of sin. I am now reconciled to God. That is, as far as I see it, the reason for and the result of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To me, a man who turns to Christ because he wishes to avoid hell has a very shaky reason. what if I can give him something to fear more than hell? In other words, I do not believe fear of punishment is God's way of drawing men to himself. But a man who responds to the gospel, the love and grace of God, well be unshakable and immovable. Because of that, the question of eternal torment or destruction of the wicked is not that critical in my mind.

Agreed, Travis!

The fear of Hell has been preached in eloquent and fiery oratory for a long time, without much real success. Show me a Christian who is only there out of a fear of Hell, and I will show you a miserable wretch who is unable to appropriate the love of God in an intimate walk.

I suppose we should swing this conversation over to Blaine's new thread, but while we are here, I would bring up something of the character of God that works into the discussion. He is holy, and no sin stains may be tolerated in His presence. What does God love? Easy- He loves His Son, and when we stand before Him that is what He needs to see.

I see overwhelming evidence in the scriptures that indicate an eternal separation between those who choose to put themselves in Christ, and those who do not. Questions of annihilation and suffering torment outside of time are beyond my human comprehension, but larger than that is the obligation I have to the clear Word of God. When that light comes to me and I make a choice to obey God, I come to his judgement and mercy. I have to trust that He knows what He is doing!

A wise old missionary I knew back in Bible School explained the conversation between Jesus and the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Jesus' prayer, His "will," was to inquire whether there was another way to secure salvation for His beloved disciples (read you and me in that) that did not include the cross.

The Father's answer was simple. "You do not owe a death for sin. You may come back to your exalted position anytime, right now if you wish. But I have no other way to save them, no plan B if this is your choice."

Thus Jesus made more than one trip from the garden to pass the sleeping disciples, men with no knowledge that their eternal destiny was hanging in the air.

He returned and returned, with His will against the Father's will. And so He laid His down, "Not my will but Thine be done."

It was the free choice of the Son of Man to purchase our salvation because there was no other plan, and He was the only one who could accomplish the Father's will. The Father never gave Jesus an option of a temporary Hell, it was all or nothing. The Father did not kill His Son, our sin did. The Father loved the world and when He sent His Son, the Son loved the world too. John 3:16, as you will recall.

Men prefer their own devices , their own destiny, their own selfishness. They rail against a God they will not let in to reveal the truth, and spit in the face of the only One who can save them.

The Bible has no options from Genesis to Revelation for their redemption outside of Jesus Christ. They will for eternity inherit.....themselves.

Isn't the best thing to do in this scenario to go back and pull out the scriptures that we believe show Hell is a real place vs. hell being an action of the destruction of the wicked? Once a person gets that foundation then you can find out why someone who doesn't believe the same believes what they believe.

We can support each other by saying Hell is definitely real but all that does is it gives us our own cheerleading section without a proper foundation to support the notion of what hell really is.

It is like arguing who Jesus is and the Trinity. Many scriptures refer to Jesus as Son of God and appear to show Jesus as separate from God yet there are also scriptures that show Jesus is God as well. Using the original language can also help in this effort.
I had someone email me scripture showing Jesus is not God and in turn I shared verses where scripture shows Jesus is God and asked this person to respond to what they read. No response.

I have read all of Norman Grubb's many books, listened to all 60 of his sermons here on SI and corresponded with people who new him. The Tikkun Ministries article is all wrong. He emphatically did not teach universalism and I do not recall him ever mentioning the doctrines of annihilation or "final restitution."

Heresy-hunters like Juster are notoriously incapable of understanding the people they criticize. They are afraid to think thru a doctrine that differs from their own school of dogma for fear of soiling their minds with heretical thoughts. They will not allow themselves to understand, so they are always mischaracterizing and missing the mark.

(You Calvinists are surely familiar with that phenomenon: most guys who preach against Calvinism don't even know what Calvinism is.)

But back to Norman. As Director of World Evangelism Crusade, he went thru a crisis of faith after reading "Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James, and found himself wondering if his own Christian experience was a figment of his imagination. He took a one year furlough and found his footing again thru the mystical writings of Jacob Boehme and William Law.

Thenceforth his message was Union Life: "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20 The message is, not only Christ for us, with us and in us, but Christ *as* us. The Christian life is Christ living His life thru us, not us trying to do for Him. Humans have no moral nature: we are only vessels: Vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy. Rom. 9:22-23 (NB! A wrathful Christian may immediately be recognized as a false Christian, animated by the spirit of error.)

Anyway, you can see why Norman ran afoul of the religious authorities. His later teachings were a significant departure from mainstream theology. Evangelical theology puts a huge emphasis on human performance and has led millions of believers into the perpetual defeat of self-effort. Norman called it "the Romans 7 life" and his Union Life Gospel was a frontal assault against evangelical Pop Theology. Thus he became persona non grata in respectable religious circles.

In the 50's he was world-famous, a best-selling author, preached to packed arenas, sometimes shared a pulpit with Leonard Ravenhill and wrote articles for Tozer's newsletter. In his later years he travelled the country preaching the Union Life message in people's living rooms. No church would have him.

If you want to learn more about Union Life (and I hope you do!) check out

http://christasus.com

For more about Jacob Boehme

http://jacobboehmeonline.com