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How can a God of love.......

sermonindex Oct 6, 2013

Thought I would out the question before the forum. How can a God of love send people to a literal, eternal burning hell? Do the scriptures teach that hell is eternal? Do the scriptures teach all will be saved?

Personally I hold to the traditional view that hell is eternal and reserved for those who do not accept Christ. But I am willing and open to discuss this.

Please, I ask this to be a round table discussion. I believe the issues of hell and universalism need to be discussed in light of the impact of the Rob Bell book on the church. Please observe the SI rules and guidelines. My prayer is this thread can lead to some fruitful discussion and understanding of the scriptures.

Let us be respectful of one another. I would like to hear from the forum on this issue.

My reason for opening up this thread is a brother I once respected has now turned toward universal salvation. He says hell is a temporary place of punusment. All will be saved.

What are your thoughts? What does the Bible teach?

Blaine Scogin

M
MaryJane Oct 7, 2013

Greetings Bear

Here are some scriptures that speak to the teaching that "all will be saved" I have also shared some that speak to the truth of hell being eternal.
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Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them. "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.”
Luke 13:22-25

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
Matthew 7:13 & 14

God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

In Revelation 14:11 it says, "The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.” Revelation 20:10 says, "There is no rest day or night.”

Matthew 25:46 "They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of man will send out his angels and they will weed out of the kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of the Father. He who has ears, let him hear.”
Matthew 13:40-43

"Throw that worthless servant outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 25:30

"If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, for it is better for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands and to go to Hell where the fire never goes out.”
Mark 9:42

"…the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:48
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Here is something to consider from a teaching I read a long time ago.

" Jesus spoke far more about Hell than He did about Heaven. Jesus spoke more about Hell than virtually any other subject during His time here on earth. He wanted to make Hell very clear to us. I think you can see how it would be an injustice to withhold such a prominent part of Jesus’ teaching. If we don’t bring that truth to you in about the same proportion that Jesus did, we really wouldn’t be "walking as Jesus walked.” "Knowing the fear of the Lord we persuade men,” were the words of Paul. He certainly had a crystal clear understanding of what it was he was dealing with."

" I am sure that, intellectually, most of us believe in the fairy-tale version of Hell, but being able to hear and understand with the ears of our heart the screams of agony of millions of people that are in torment right now, is harder to grasp. To actually believe that they are in the torment of Hades, in the fire of torment right now, is a little bit hard to relate to. But it is happening. And those who are full of faith, full of the Holy Spirit will understand and be able to actually hear those screams, and it will motivate them to tell others."

______________________

God bless
maryjane

T
twayneb Oct 7, 2013

Mary Jane, here are some more as well

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Way too many very plain references for any honest person to believe that hell is anything but a place of judgment and that this judgment is final and permanent.


M
MaryJane Oct 7, 2013

Greeting Twayneb

you shared Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

_____________________________

I always am reminded of something that was shared with me once, if hell is not eternal and those who are cast in are instantly destroyed how can there be wailing and gnashing of teeth. If someone is destroyed they can not wail or gnash their teeth because they would be no more...

Thank you for sharing
God bless
maryjane

sermonindex Oct 7, 2013


Here is a sobering message on this very important topic:

Hell, What Is It Like? by David Wilkerson
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=8084&commentView=itemComments

an article: The Mental Agonies Of Hell by Robert Murray M'Cheyne
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=469

We also had a LONG series of posts on the eternal punishment of hell many years ago before it has been questioned by many popular evangelicals. I believe this is a serious sober topic that needs to be considered.

We must never put human reasoning above the Word of God.

sermonindex Oct 7, 2013

MaryJane and Twayneb thank you for the good verses. Very thought provoking. Greg than you for the links. Lord willing, will check them out.

Blaine

sermonindex Oct 7, 2013

Blaine,

The question should be asked, "How can a God of Love allow Lucifer and sinners (unregenerate men) to abide in heaven. If you ask the question that way, you will have your answer. Because He is love, He will not allow Satan and sinners to abuse loving people. That is done on earth for the sinner's sake, but it will not continue in heaven.

S
Sidewalk Oct 7, 2013

Over the years I have heard many bring up this human dilemma, how could a loving God consign anyone to an eternal Hell. It sets the terms of the discussion putting God on the defensive, and invites human emotion to rule the discussion.

How about a little rephrase?

How could a violent and selfish human being ever expect anyone to care about his eternal destiny? God should mind His own business and let them do what they want!

Man has cleverly devised a strategy for this already. Since he wants his own way, wants to set the terms, control the outcomes, and live in praise of his own happiness- he invented religion!

That way there can be a God, any god, and we build a little place for him that is in view, but not in the way. We decide what he can do, what he can't do, what he would say, how he will help me get what I want, and how I can buy him off if I decide he is angry with me.

So the natural state of man and god is emotionally driven idolatry. I let him pretend to be god, but in reality I am perfectly capable of being god all by myself, thank you very much.

No wonder He who sits in the heavens laughs, on one level it is highly amusing. On another, cold dead serious. Man does not make the rules, a holy and loving real God does. He who ordered the universe and designed all the participants both living and incapable of life makes decisions according to the laws of nature and the laws of His character.

We will be ill served if we twist His Word to serve our own emotional needs, and fail to recognize that we are His doing, His property, subject to His law and authority.

God offers Salvation out of that profound love, but by His own admission He cannot save those who refuse a free gift. He does not send people to eternal Hell, He saves people from it. In reality, people needlessly send themselves to Hell.

S
Sidewalk Oct 7, 2013

I guess Just-in and I were thinking and typing in some pretty cool unity!

sermonindex Oct 7, 2013

Amen, sidewalk. Ultimately, we will all dwell with the (F)father whose nature we have. Kin will be together. It would be kidnapping on God's part to take one of Satan's kin when Satan has legal ownership.

Some would say today, that "no, Satan does not have legal ownership anymore since Christ died for all men". Yet, we become children of God by exercising faith in and towards Christ, the same way that many become children of Satan by unbelief (not having faith in Christ).

People like to say today that we are all children of God, but what saith the Scriptures?

Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

T
TMK Oct 7, 2013

sidewalk wrote:

"God offers Salvation out of that profound love, but by His own admission He cannot save those who refuse a free gift. He does not send people to eternal Hell, He saves people from it. In reality, people needlessly send themselves to Hell."

I think most people here have a pretty high view of God's sovereignty, so I want to make sure I get this line of thinking correct.

God created man; man did not create himself. God, being sovereign, created man innocent. But God in his sovereignty allowed Satan to enter Eden to tempt man. God always knew that man would sin (He's sovereign, remember?). He was not surprised. So God in his sovereignty created a place of everlasting, eternal torment in which to cast these sinners who do not avail themselves (or even know) of the plan He has also ordained to keep them out of this infernal place.

Sure, we can say things like "How could a violent and selfish human being ever expect anyone to care about his eternal destiny? God should mind His own business and let them do what they want!"

But that is not helpful, because does man really have a choice in the manner? Can you or I not sin? Of course not. We're hell-bound, my friend.

So God in his sovereignty created a system where everyone sins (and yes He did know this was the system he created) and since the vast majority of mankind will not avail themselves of his redemptive plan(or even know about it), then perhaps 98% of every person who has ever lived will burn in torment for all eternity(that's an awfully long sentence) for committing sins for maybe 70 or 80 years while on this earth. "And God saw that it was good."

Really?


"Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Gen 18:25)

T
TMK Oct 7, 2013

1. Eternal Torment (aka "Traditionalism”)

Primary Texts: Matt.25:41, 46 / Mk.9:43-48 / 2 Thess.1:9 / Rev.14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10, 15
Notable advocates: Tertullian, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and the majority of evangelical theologians throughout most (though not all) of church history

Affirmations and Arguments:

A. As a consequence of being made in the image of God (Gen.1:26-27), people, unlike animals, are immortal beings, and must necessarily spend eternity consciously in one state or another (alternatively: immortality is not innate, but will be conferred by God after the resurrection);

B. Though the wages of sin is "death,” this does not preclude continuing conscious existence beyond the grave, as is seen in the story of "Lazarus and the Rich Man” (Luke 16:19ff). The terms "dead” and "death” do not necessarily refer to a cessation of existence, nor of consciousness, in scripture (Eph.2:1; Col.2:13; 1 Tim.5:6);

C. Only those who believe in Christ may dwell in God’s presence for all eternity (John 3:16). All others, must remain forever absent from God, apart from all light, joy, and consolation (2 Thess.1:9);

D. After the final judgment, the souls, as well as the bodies, of the lost will be cast into Gehenna (Matt.10:28; Mark 9:43, 45, 47), which is also called "the lake of fire” (Rev.20:10, 14-15);

E. In Gehenna, the unbeliever will suffer torment, possibly of both body and soul, suggested by terms like "furnace of fire...weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt.13:42, 50) and "cast into outer darkness” (Matt.8:12; 22:13; 25:30);

F. That this torment never ends for the lost in hell is suggested by terms "eternal” and "forever” in phrases like "eternal fire” (Matt.25:41), "eternal punishment” (Matt.25:46), "eternal destruction” (2 Thess.1:9) and "tormented...forever” (Rev.20:10). All this is contrasted with the "eternal life” enjoyed by the redeemed (John 3:16; Matt.26:46);

G. Justice demands eternal punishment. Only a punishment that is eternal is suited to the crime of sinning against the eternal God. Sinning against God is a crime against infinite Majesty, and warrants punishment of infinite duration;

H. There will be no eternal grieving on the part of believers for those who are lost. God will wipe away all tears from their eyes (Rev.21:4). This may involve the erasing of memories about former relationships (Isa.43:18), or it may involve a change in perspective on the part of believers, once they see the matter from God’s point of view (Isa.55:8-9; Job 42:5-6).

2. Conditional Immortality (aka, "Conditionalism," "Annihilationism,” "Extinctionism,” "Terminalism”)

Notable Advocates: John R.W. Stott, Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd, Roger Forster, John Wenham, Michael Green, Edward William Fudge, Glenn Peoples, Ben Witherington III, F.F. Bruce (open but undecided)

Affirmations and Arguments:

A. Only God is immortal by nature (1 Tim.6:16)

B. Man, not innately possessing immortality, must seek to obtain it (Rom.2:7)

C. God gives eternal life (immortality) to men, on the condition of their believing in Christ (John 3:16; 10:28/ 1 John 5:11-12/ Rom.6:23)

D. In scripture, the lost are never declared to be immortal. Their fate is described using terms such as "destroy,” "consume,” "perish,” and "death” (Matt.10:28/ 1 Thess.5:3/ 2 Thess.1:9; 2:8/ John 3:16/ Rom.2:12);

E. Certain scriptures assert that conscious existence does not continue beyond the grave (Ps.6:5; 146:4; Eccl.9:5);

F. After death, the wicked will be punished proportionately to their guilt (Luke 12:47-48), and not all suffer equally (Matt.11:22, 24), which means that the suffering is not infinite or eternal;

G. The punishment (though not the punishing) of the wicked is eternal, permanent and irrevocable (Matt.25:46);

H. God’s eternal loss of those who will not repent is the terrible cost that He Himself endures out of His determination to honor the creature’s freedom of choice (Isa.5:3-7; 66:3-4; Ezek.33:11; Matt.23:37; Luke 19:41-44). Nonetheless, it brings a just and final solution to the problem of sin in the universe, and does not require God (or us) to eternally endure the grief of knowing that millions of souls who were loved in this life are being tormented endlessly in the next;

I. The lost will be resurrected, along with the righteous, in order to face the judgment (John 5:28-29/ Acts 24:15). Upon being condemned, they will be cast into the lake of fire (hell) where they will either be immediately consumed, and cease to exist, or they will suffer punishment proportionate to their guilt (Luke 12:47-48), after which they will be allowed to pass into natural non-existence (the same condition they were in before they were born). In the end, it will be as if they never existed;

J. Though this view does not have as happy an ending as does Christian Universalism, it nonetheless ends with a tolerable and just resolution to the problem of sin in the world, and it takes seriously the scriptures about the eternal forfeiture of eternal life by those who die in rebellion against Christ.

3. Universal Reconciliation (aka, "Christian Universalism,” "Restorationism”)

Notable Advocates: Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215), Origen (185-254), Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390), William Law, George MacDonald, Hannah Whitall Smith, F.W. Farrar, William Barclay, Jacques Ellul, Thomas Talbott, Rob Bell (apparently, but not certainly).

Affirmations and Arguments:

A. God desires for all people to be saved (1 Tim.2:4/ 2 Peter 3:9/ John 3:16/ Ezek.18:23, 32)

B. Christ died to redeem the whole world (John 1:29/ 1 John 2:2/ 1 Tim.2:6)

C. If all for whom Christ died are not ultimately reconciled, then Christ will never receive all that He died to obtain, and He becomes the cosmic Loser for all eternity, while the devil wins his desired object””which hardly agrees with biblical statements about Christ’s victory over sin, death and Satan (Isa. 42:1-4/Col.2:15/ Heb.2:14/ 1 John 3:8);

D. The Bible often speaks in terms of universal salvation and restoration (1 Tim. 4:10/ Rom.5:18-19/ Col.1:19-20/ Eph.1:9-10/ John 12:32/ Isa.53:11);

E. After death, the wicked will be punished proportionately to their guilt, or until they are brought to repentance (Luke 12:47-48);

F. There is no obvious reason (in scripture or in logic) why the God who desires that all would repent, and who will accept the genuine repentance of a life-long sinner even the moment before death, would arbitrarily declare death to be the cut-off point for any opportunity to repent and be forgiven.

G. Given enough pressure and time, all men will””if not before death, then afterward””turn to Christ and be saved (Phil.2:10-11);

H. There is nothing in this teaching to offend the sentiments of Christians, since it affirms every cardinal doctrine of the evangelical faith””in fact, it is the view that would most satisfy those who share God’s heartfelt desire for the salvation of the lost.

M
murrcolr Oct 7, 2013

Quote: So God in his sovereignty created a system where everyone sins.

No - God did not create a system where everyone sins.

As by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Rom 5:12


sermonindex Oct 7, 2013

God created man; man did not create himself. God, being sovereign, created man innocent. But God in his sovereignty allowed Satan to enter Eden to tempt man. God always knew that man would sin (He's sovereign, remember?). He was not surprised. So God in his sovereignty created a place of everlasting, eternal torment in which to cast these sinners who do not avail themselves (or even know) of the plan He has also ordained to keep them out of this infernal place.

The scriptures says, "Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels", not man. Matt 25:41

Sure, we can say things like "How could a violent and selfish human being ever expect anyone to care about his eternal destiny? God should mind His own business and let them do what they want!"

But that is not helpful, because does man really have a choice in the manner? Can you or I not sin? Of course not. We're hell-bound, my friend.

Adam had the capability (being made in God's image and created pure and innocent) of choosing to obey God, otherwise God would not have given Him choices.

So God in his sovereignty created a system where everyone sins (and yes He did know this was the system he created) and since the vast majority of mankind will not avail themselves of his redemptive plan(or even know about it), then perhaps 98% of every person who has ever lived will burn in torment for all eternity(that's an awfully long sentence) for committing sins for maybe 70 or 80 years while on this earth. "And God saw that it was good."

Everything God created was good (righeous). He did not create a system where everyone sins. It was the fall of man that brought corruption. Adam was a blameshifter and so was Eve, but God did not let them get away with shifting the responsibility of their sin to someone else and He won't let us get away with it, either.

Man continues to shift the blame, even back onto God. "Let God be true and every man a liar". Rom 3:4

The Garden of Eden was not a system that promoted sin.

T
TMK Oct 7, 2013

In Revelation John describe Jesus as the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Why?

Because God knew before he created man that man would sin and would need a savior.

The question you have to ask is: Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin when he created them?

If so, did they really have a choice?

I know this gets pretty deep pretty quick. But I believe that God had the plan of salvation worked out before he even created Adam and Eve.

This means he knew men would be sinners. I agree that in some sense Adam and Eve may have had a choice not to sin, but we don't, in general. Everyone has sinned. And, by the way, Adam and Eve really didn't have a choice. God knew they would sin. I know we can debate this but unless you believe in Open Theism then you can't get around that conclusion.

When I say that this was the system that God set up, I mean it in the sense that none of this took him by surprise. We can say that God didn't set up Eden as an environment for sin. But why then did the plan of salvation pre-date Eden?

The issue on the table is whether it is also God's plan to throw sinners into hell to suffer in agony for all eternity, or whether we have possibly "missed it" big time as to whether the scriptures actually teach this.

It is my belief that perhaps they do not. I listed scripture above that support each of the three views and respected proponents of the three views.

The issue is worthy of serious consideration.

For those of you who strongly hold to a view of eternal torment, do you HOPE that it is not true? Or are you glad about it?

I still believe that it is POSSIBLE that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is true. But that really raises a lot of questions as to how to square that with the revealed character of God through his Son, Jesus Christ.

sermonindex Oct 7, 2013

Perhaps I should have titled this thread How can a holy God not send sinners.......But deferred to the common questions people ask.

In doing some Google searches on universalism the common premise is God is love. Thus a loving, forgiving God would not send sinners to hell. But one thing is forgotten. God is holy. Indeed this one attribute is echoed by the angels as they fly in the throne room saying holy, holy, holy is the Lord God alwighty. This is the one attribute echoed by the angels 3 times continually. Perhaps the three holy descriptions given to God or to a triune Gid.......Holy Father, Holy Son, Holy Spirit.

All the other attributes flow out of God's holiness. His love is s holy love. His justice is a holy justice. His mercy us a holy mercy. His anger is a holy anger. His wrath is a holy wrath. And so on.

If we approach the question of bell from a standpoint of God's holiness. Then the discussion of eternal punusment can make more sense. More sense from God's point. If not from ours.

Blaine

L
Lordoitagain Oct 7, 2013

One of my FB friends Lisa Moeller posted this on her wall:

"i sat through a documentary called Hellbound??? on netflix last night which was pure propaganda and 90 min of religious heretics twisting Scripture in an attempt to prove there is no hell. In the midst of their psychobabble they stated how unjust it would be for millions of Jews to go from Hitler's furnace to satan's. First of all it is erroneous on many levels to perceive our puny brains could master the infinite wisdom of God. Secondly these "deep thinkers" obviously never contemplated the idea that since He knows all there is to know about a person along with the beginning to the end that He would also know which ones would have accepted Christ had they been given a chance. Hell is a very real place regardless of what the skeptics say and God is a just and righteous God. The world needs to stop trying to pick His brain and be so clever in their own sight and go out and take the world for Jesus which is their only Hope to escape what is coming."

I didn't know anything about the "documentary" (as usual) but it is really sad that Hell's preachers are flooding the media with such perversions of truth!

T
TMK Oct 8, 2013

Bear...

You arent paying attention. Credible proponents of either universal reconciliation or annihilationism do NOT deny the existence of hell. Both groups believe that God sends people there.

The issue is whether hell is an eternal punishment.

When you make the statement that a proponent of UR does not believe that a loving God sends people to hell, you are grossly misrepresenting their position. Once again, they do believe there is a hell and God sends them there. The issue is one of duration, not existence.

T
TMK Oct 8, 2013

Lorddoitagain...

Your friend's name calling is not very productive, and that program would seem like propaganda to a person who has only been taught one thing their entire life and has not made any effort to truly look into this issue for themselves.

I can tell you one thing...i would rather be called a heretic for believing in an alternate view of hell, than to be heretic associated with the Westboro Baptist church, who is also featured in that program.

If we cant have this discussion without labelling people who disagree as heretics, then we have serious issues.

sermonindex Oct 8, 2013

Respectfully brother I never said Universalist denied the reality of hell. But their belief in a God of love prompts them to ask the question how can a loving and forgiving God send people to hell. But yes, the question is also one of duration. Is hell eternal punusment?

My previous post suggested we have to start with the holiness of God. All other attributes will flow out of His holiness.

The holiness of God requires His nature to not tolerate sin. It has been said God would rather extinguish heaven then allow it to be tainted with sin. Thus sin has been punished in the sacrificial work of Christ's death on the cross. Which a person nay choose to accept and believe. Or sin will be punished by the sinner in hell. I believe the scriptures teach that will be an eternal torment. Thus all the need to tell people about Christ and implore them to believe in Him.

One weakness of the Universalist position is there to no need to evagelize. If everybody is going to be saved. Why tell then about Jesus.

Blaine

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