Progressive Christianity and Conservative Christianity

I wrote a little blog on this but I didn't take the time to put all of my thoughts into it but I did wonder what this board things of both of these areas?

I listened to a couple of Progressive pastors this weekend on podcasts while at work. I wanted to get a feel for what it is they are doing vs. the tradition pastor. Among the things I found is this sensitivity to the emotions but as it deals more with the flesh than the spirit. One pastor actually said a few cuss words because she says that is the way she is. Another is a gay pastor or mentioned unclean gays and laughed as he said it. Yet, it said it in a way that he knew it was true but used humor to wish it away.

I also heard a story that likened demons to abstract realities to the extent that she didn't know if demons existed and frankly didn't care but she didn't care about Jesus. I also noticed that the congregation with laugh often and when the pastor would say something that was on the edge such as a foul word or something controversial in activism the crowd strongly applauded to let outside know how they stood.

I also heard a prayer that I found, the meat of it was good, but the pastor kept saying 'All compassionate, loving God' which falls in line with progessive agendas of diversity, love and acceptance. I never heard the name Jesus in the prayer. Yet, if I compare that to Conservative Christianity I would hear 4 points and a poem and not always things to relate to. There might be some talk about sin and hell and heaven but the atmosphere would be totally different. It in a better way but also maybe not in a better way as well.

What do you think?

John

John,

Why do you want to 'play' with the apostate church? I'm not being provocative, but these 'progressive' people don't believe the word of God. They're not really progressive at all, they are as old as Satan himself and are repeating the 'old lie' of "Did God say"!.

You don't need to be listening to them. If you want to listen to something at work and don't want to listen to sermons, then just listen to the audio bible or maybe just meditate on scripture you have read earlier that day!

Lead me to the ancient paths Lord!

Edit: If conservative = not changing, but holding onto the original and 'progressive = always changing and different, then I'll be a conservative because God says "I am the Lord and I do not change".

Because I want to understand what is going on with them and why they swing the way they swing. I call it critical thinking. It is like examining someone who has gone into false doctrine. They went that way for a reason and to say they are just a heretic is useless. Why did they go astray? You may not care and want to stay on the Conservative side of the fence but for me I want to know and understand what these people are doing and why they are doing it. Through it I begin to understand the cultural revolution going on in this country. I am simply educating myself just as I educate myself when it comes to some politics. I listen to some conservative and some liberal just to compare sides and I have learned alot through it.

John

Below I will post brother Greg's post from another thread, in which he provides links to a great free book dealing with this subject:

"The labels Emergent Church, Emerging Church, Emergence Christianity, and New Christianity all imply innovative and progressive understandings of Orthodox Christianity. Like nailing jello to a wall, many have attempted to understand and define the Emergent movement only to be frustrated and confused.

At the heart of the Emerging movement is the worldview of postmodernism which teaches that truth is relative and subjective. This ebook by Elliott Nesch, Hath God Said? ”“ Emergent Church Theology, demonstrates how postmodernism is incompatible with a biblical worldview of absolute truth and the authority of the Scriptures on various topics including feminism, homosexuality, hell, mysticism, eschatology, Jesus Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and more.

In Hath God Said? ”“ Emergent Church Theology, the teachings of the Emergent movement are exposed in light of Scripture. Also by comparing early Church writings with Emergent writings, it becomes evident that the Emerging Church is not preaching the faith once delivered to the saints.

This book is available for FREE as a PDF file here: http://www.holybibleprophecy.org/hath-god-said.pdf

or available in EPUB and MOBI formats here: http://bookstore.booktango.com/AdvancedSearch/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=hath+god+said "

The progressive compares himself as more compassionate than the conservative, The conservative compares himself as more to holding true to the bible than the progressive, the self proclaimed remnant believer compares himself as more sincere than both the progressive and the conservative.

May God give me a heart that bleeds for this generation and sincearly desires others over myself, and may I stop supplementing the peace that only God provides with that of what the pride of comparative righteousness so easily disguises itself as.

Only minutes before I read the OP and put my post in I had stumbled across an article by a UK 'Baptist' pastor called Steve Chalke. He was using (twisting) scripture to endorse a homosexual lifestyle and marriage. This is why I responded to the OP.

Chalke declares himself as an evangelical Christian and bible believing. He has a very prominent position in evangelical circles and the media, regularly appearing on TV and in newspapers as an evangelical christian. However on many foundational Christian doctrines (including sexuality) he departs from the faith. He is well known for denying that Jesus took the punishment for our sins in atonement.

He is a very dangerous man, leading many astray and giving false assurance to many who want to live in sin and think they will still be accepted by God. His words are very subtle (like his father), using many words and arguments that do not outright deny scripture, but re-interpret then based on scandalous reasoning. We know where this comes from, but many who do not know better will be deceived by his many 'reasonable' words. This is why I say 'why play with the apostates?'

Here is just a small sample of his use of confusing words to undermine the clear teaching of scripture.

In discussing the Genesis account of man and women and that Jesus refers to it as the pattern for marriage Chalke says:
"Was the author (he means Jesus) intending to enshrine the view that all lifelong sexual unions should be exclusively heterosexual because this is a 'creation ordinance'? Or, is this simply the normative illustration, whereas the critical truths of the story lie elsewhere? If it is the former, then it is perhaps legitimate to refer to practicing homosexual sex, even within a lifelong relationship, as having 'fallen short of God's ideal' and to state that those who are not heterosexually orientated are 'in need of restoration'. But, if it's the latter, then does the 'norm' necessarily infer the 'ideal'? Or is it like the 'norm' of being right-handed, which never implies any failing of those who are born left-handed? If so, then neither of the earlier negative definitions is appropriate, but instead cause a great deal of unnecessary pain and, sometimes, terrible tragedy."

What he is saying is that the 'norm' of being heterosexual is the same as being right-handed, but being left-handed (homosexual) is not wrong, just not the 'norm'. You see the subtle use of his words ' less than ideal' and not sin. He however does not even think it is less than ideal. So you see the method. Lower the bar of the biblical view by changing words from sin to 'not ideal' and then defining 'not normal' as meaning OK.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Cor 11:3)

Neil (HezWelling),

I agree, I don't like labels. However people give themselves labels just as much. Progressive Christianity is a movement and those in it put that name to it.

If someone calls me a conservative Christian and by that mean I hold to the traditional truths taught in scripture, then I would say "yes I am".

There is a very subtle and very slippery slope when it comes to 'Progressive' Christianity. One of the things I am keenly aware of is as the pdf is titled 'Hath God said..' because false pastors will take the Word and change a word or 2 just enough to make it sound as if it is the same but it is not. I am very often aware of this and often bring it up to people as an offering of discernment of the work of the adversary these days. I want to be able to confront a few of these people/pastors as well.

I like the analog of nail jello to the wall because I do find that kind of belief system with them. I notice many of the things that the average person doesn't notice. That includes how a progressive congregation reacts to certain buzz terms - often more than Conservative Christians react to the truth.

Through it all it makes me very aware of the scripture about God finding faith in the Earth in the end times because the subtly of the Devil is a might one. Appealing to the eyes, to the hears, and to the touch yet it leads to death.

John

Brother John
Andrew Kelly is not posting here at the moment, but I thought you should see what he writes of "progressive christianity", or "emergent theology" as he calls it:

"An Ancient Danger & A Modern Reality

Occult thinking is now finding its fullest outworking in an emergent theology amongst God’ very elect. At the heart of this emergent theology lies a rational and undeniable reality which is so seductive that it makes of its adherents a tangible realisation of god like understanding and ambitions which resists rebuke because at the heart of it lies the natural hearts and minds of men and women and has little if anything to do with demonic activity as was historically understood even thirty years ago. In short men and women are themselves becoming demonic in their inclinations, thereby making demonic activity less visible and more subtle than at any time in history."

A day of sorcerers A R M Kelly
https://blog.ichabod.eu/sorcerers/

David

Andrew Kelly has 'hit the nail on the head'!

John, your opening line was 'progressive or conservative Christianity'. The progressive has been addressed here and I think we all understand what this means in it's basic sense, but what you call conservative has not been discussed or described.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by conservative. The term can mean a lot of different things to different people and probably different to you in the USA to me the UK. As I said in a previous post, the simple definition of the word itself would lead us to agree that it would be a good position to be conservative if it means not changing from that which has been received and accepted as truth. (By that I mean the foundational truths of our faith). What do you mean by the term conservative?

In your blog you make clear that you understand progressive Christianity is an error and I understand your motive in wanting to engage with these folk. However you also state that both progressive and conservative Christianity have there good and bad points. That seems to be a bit odd, as if they are not any different. So hence my question, what is it that you call 'conservative' and what is the error in it?

Progressive Christianity is clearly a satanic deception. Are you saying the same of what you call 'conservative Christianity'? If so you need to define it for me.

Conservative would be the same as Fundamental. The flaw with Conservatives is abuse of literalism and how literal to allow something to be when it comes to family. Some examples would be clothing. Does the Bible teach a strict code or it is merely cultural? Is it ok for a woman to work or should she be at home and be a home maker and even a mom? Does a woman have any rights at all or is she at the mercy of men? ERA was a backlash to this.

Plus the fact that some Fundamentalist preacher abused their congregations with hard preaching to the extent the extent that legalism entered the scene. Clothing, music, drink, family roles and so forth. What if a girl wanted to learn how to be a mechanic would a Fundamentalist think that isn't a woman's role?

My mom worked her tail off through college to be a nurse while my dad did his own business but was as lazy as a sloth. Not long after she graduated she divorced my dad. He was lazy and might have had a few affairs on her. After the divorce dad condemned my brother and I for going with a 'whore' and a 'divorcee'. An old time Fundamentalist (preacher) would condemn her for her actions according to what he reads from the bible because it only shows a man can divorce his wife and not the other way around. I can tell you that my brother and I probably would have ended up disfunctional had mom not divorced day.

Some of my thoughts on why Fundamentalism has flaws and can lead to abuse in its extremist of views.

Opinions?
John

John, it would also come down to what we mean by 'fundamental', because it can also mean different things to different folk. To some it means adhering to fundamental, essential truths of Scripture upon which one's salvation can hing. To others it may mean legalism, etc. If by fundamentalist and conservative you mean adhering to essential Christian truths I would consider myself in that camp, and so would many brothers and sisters on this forum.

Another thing that came to mind is that some pastors who claim to be conservative are actually hiding under that guise while actually being progressive/emergent in some of their practices and teachings. One such pastor who comes to mind is Mark Driscoll. For example, he does not shy away from being too sexually explicit and he practices and endorses drinking alcohol in public.

Nothing can be termed progressive until we are progressing towards God and drawing near to him. If we are progressing towards the world and embracing it then we are actually not progressing but degrading.

A conservative view should mean SELF denial, not a denial enforced on others, then it becomes legalistic. There are people who are given the responsibility to Sheppard others and they are exceptions but not all are called to be shepherds.

Hi John,

Thanks for your explanation. I see why I was confused about what you said. You see I would not associate the things you describe as being 'conservative'. It would just not be in my thinking. To me 'conservative Christian just means someone who believes the fundamental truths of scripture (now I've used that other word). That's why labels don't really work, we just have to address the actual teachings and practices to be clear.

I think your perception is very affected by your history, which I understand. Some of those things you list as 'conservative' I would have opinions on, but they are not things that I would consider make someone 'conservative' or 'fundamental'.

To a 'progressive' you would be considered a 'conservative'.
You would probably take that as an insult though!:)

I know some that would be considered 'fundamentalist' to whom the word 'charismatic' means the extreme crazy money prosperity preachers. That is the image in their mind. They cannot conceive that it could include normal sound bible believing Christians who also believe in the gifts of the Spirit, even though they fellowship with and accept such folk they don't consider them'charismatic'. As someone here used to say 'words have history, not just meaning'!

John

There is a place where:

The Saints feed on the Bread of Life without fear.

Where a fountain is open to the thirsty.

Where no wolf or hireling can enter or thief break in, but the Good Shepherd guides His own to fresh pastures.

Where all love one another without preference.

Where all lean on His bosom and commune with their Beloved.

Where is this place? It is called His church. It is a pearl of great price, for which a man will sell all that he has, of rather, discard all he has, considered as dung. It is to be sought by the hungry soul, but in seeking IT, it will not be found. For what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

There are no descriptive adjectives whereby it may be described, such as conservative, evangelical, progressive, or even christian. It is His church, His body, His bride.

It exists in heaven and here on the earth. But in the wisdom of God, only little children find it.

David