Submission to Government

In church we were discussing Romans 13, 1 Timothy 2, and 1 Peter 2. All of these were dealing with Christians and the government.

Several days ago I was reading and responding to posts concerning a topic similar to this. So I wanted to go to the scriptures and see what it says. It seems to me that Christians are not supposed to be rabble-rousers, rebellious, but submissive to governing authorities, praying for those in leadership, while attempting to lead a quiet life with dignity and godliness.

OF COURSE we ought to be obedient to God. I would never advocate total obedience to the government even when the authorities are commanding us to sin against the Lord or violate the conscience that God gave us.

The issue that arose in Sunday School was this: I stated that we needed to submit to our governing authorities, regardless over whether we agree with everything they say or not so long as we are in obedience to the Lord--that means paying taxes, not overthrowing the government, not disobeying laws we disagree with without any biblical reason, etc. The specific example I used was that if they made owning a gun illegal tomorrow, then I would, as a Christian, need to surrender mine.

I was then accused of taking verses out of context, to which I replied "Then what DO these verses mean?" And that is one of my questions to you guys. What DO these verse actually mean? I have looked up on the internet and in one camp all these guys break down the Greek and make those verses say "Submit to the government, so long as God already approves of what it is doing." The other camp makes these verses say "Submit to every ordinance of the government, regardless of what they say/do." I say that you submit to the government as long as you don't have to sin. And if you can vote, try to vote for what is good and right.

We are going to have to resolve this next class period. So I am hoping that I can get enough counselors in here so that I can gain wisdom. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and I will walk in there without a stitch of pride and say I was. However, my understanding is this: the general response of Christians, especially here in the south is rooted more in dominion theology than in the truth of God's word. Yes, we were/are blessed to live in a country where we have so many wonderful freedoms, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it commands me to rebel against the government if the government does not give us those freedoms or takes them away.

Help!

Act 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Act 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

This raises a very interesting question for your Sunday School class. I think it would be interesting to see Americans views alongside British and Canadians may have their own interesting perspectives as well.

The question then is this -

Do you (generic you - I mean anyone) hold that the US War of Independence was then an unjust war and done in clear violation of God's Word in the Romans 13:3 ?

Was the Declaration of Independence conceived in rebellion to God and the Revolutionary War and subsequent US Constitution then based upon raw rebellion to God and His ordained authority?

Were the founders of the Republic also engaging in an "evil work" in your (anyones) opinion?

On the surface it seems that however a person views one might be how they have to view the other if it happens in our day.

After all ... when it is said and done the US War for Independence from Britain was fought over taxes. It was a tax revolt pure and simple. The British politicians believed that the colonists should foot part of the costs for garrisoning the troops there to protect them. These British troops were in the colonies at the colonists request. When asked to pay part of the cost of their expenses by a small set of very modest taxes the colonists revolted. British powers responded with force to "enforce" the taxes ... each side amassed arms... shots were fired at Concord ... and the rest is history, as they say.

Would people today feeling they were having a similar taxation set on them without just representation in their minds be in the same position as the colonists?

The way they might feel this way was that approximately 70% of people informed the representatives that they did NOT want Obamacare put into place. The representatives rejected the majority desires of their constituents and voted to pass it anyway.

The Supreme Court later upheld it a "A TAX". As Congress has the power to tax/spend the Supreme Court held Obamacare as constitutional AS IT WAS A TAX PASSED BY CONGRESS. Those are the exact words of Chief Justice Roberts. It "IS A TAX". Many seem to now view that as taxation without representation (70% of the people rejected it yet their representatives impose a massive new tax on them anyway).

Were the colonists being ungodly? Is a person rebelling at what they believe to be unjust taxes being ungodly?

I would appreciate posters opinions as to whether they think the founders and colonists were in rebellion to God by engaging in The American Revolution.

They did so for a far, far, far less tax burden than is currently being imposed.

I say that you submit to the government as long as you don't have to sin. And if you can vote, try to vote for what is good and right.

es, we were/are blessed to live in a country where we have so many wonderful freedoms, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it commands me to rebel against the government if the government does not give us those freedoms or takes them away.

I would agree with your statements about submitting to government but there is a deeper issue here concerning government that we need to consider. Democracy can only work as long as we deliberately choose God as our individual ruler and submit our rights and ourselves to Him; As Christians this should be our message and policy and the world should see and hear it.

I think it is interesting that you chose gun rights as an example. If such a law would be passed as to remove that right it would just be further advancing the trend of recent years for the government to step in and curb selfish tendencies. Because of the utter selfishness of men, our countrymen have insisted more and more on using their rights selfishly for their own purposes instead of living for God with concern for the needs of others. So, although the constitution doesn't give the government the right to step in and curb selfish tendencies, it has usurped the power to do so for what it calls "the common good." This is just another example of how government tries to treat the symptoms while ignoring the disease and it will ultimately lead to a totalitarian welfare state unless we turn to God.

In Christ,

Ron

Hi appolus,

What was the reason that you moved from Europe to America ?

InTheLight,

I also think there is a deeper issue here for Christianity. If we moralize America to the point that the Law agrees exactly with Christianity, have we accomplished anything? Isn't our primary responsibility to preach the Gospel, not develop a moral society? Now, I am not saying we shouldn't vote or nothing like that.

Something I think is that America proves that even with a government that was founded on Christian principles--mankind is still so depraved that it will fall directly back into blatant rejection of the Lord, as America is doing now. Even with Christian men and freedom of religion and all of these wonderful other things, mankind still chooses wickedness. It proves Jeremiah 17:9 right--"The heart is deceitfully wicked and desperately sick. Who can know it?"

Does that make any sense?

--------------------------------------

Also, where did that quote come from at the bottom of your name!? I have never heard that before. I really liked it.

In military discussions, people are warned not to use Israeli operations for valuable military tactical training. Their anecdotal history of military moves is full of strange turns of circumstance to their favor like the handful of WWII German planes discovered in Eastern Europe, duct taped together, piloted by smuggled in American pilots, and used to stop cold a well equipped Egyption force of over 10,000 men in 1948 at the birth of that nation.

Or another incident where Israeli tanks were caught between an overwhelming force and a sand covered mine field. They were able to retreat when a freak wind came through and whisked away the sand exposing the mines.

George Washington's multiple defeats and one squeaky victory aided by a fortuitous fog turned the tide for the rag-tag colonial forces, allowing the final victory that birthed the American nation. There is reason to believe that God was there in answer to deep groaning prayer.

And just as David recounts over and over in the Psalms, God is somehow pleased to help those who call upon Him in times of stress and even physical battle.

The people of today's America are most easily likened to the ancient Israelites who departed from former glory and went after idols. The idols of today may have more bells and whistles and require regular charging, but in the larger sense they are no different- just stuff that keeps people from the pursuit of God.

And now comes the judgement. The love of sin in America has reached epidemic proportions, and the trajectory into socialist slavery is clearly charted. The eagle has its talons in a painful grip and the prey is learning the very hard lesson of what it means to cast off moral restraint and wander aimlessly into the hunting grounds.

The citizens are shrieking in horror as they open the envelopes of their new "healthcare system" and begin to realize that they have been completely duped. It is scary ugly to watch, but it is exactly what they voted for.

Frankly, I do not know where I may be forced to draw my own red line for the honor of the Name of the One I serve. But my prayer is that I might know and stand at the proper time. I also know that the spirit driving the current plunge into full-on dictatorship doesn't like anything I believe in.

By the way, Appolus, I share genetically some of that Scottish heritage with you- though I never actually lived there. (Visited in 1961...)

I don't tell this to everyone, though. I don't like being blamed for the world's worst musical instrument- the bagpipe, or the worst male fashion item- the kilt.

Hi appolus

RE: ///I did not move from Europe, I moved from Scotland///

I thought I understood that you moved from england and before that scotland, I was of the thought that they where located on the continent of Europe

RE: ///Can I dare to ask why you want to know?///

Curiosity was why I asked , To assume that their was any malice with my asking, perhaps a little, but not much as you might guess, being well aware that their is not a great amount to gain by moving from Scotland or England to America as far as freedom is concerned.

But if you consider my curiosity of tying to understand why you would choose to move to a country that you seem to be so vocally critical of its foundation and system, as malice than I suppose you can judge it as so.

My assumption after I asked and before you responded was a spouse, it was the only thing I could think of that fit the box.

As far as your scenario of fighting each other in the battlefield,
brother I would ask what have I ever written that gave the impression that I indorse Christians in the battle -field ?

Brother appolus I do greatly apperciate your answering of my direct question to you.

God Bless you dear brother!

This is an interesting topic that I have dealt with on a continual basis for many years. The same Bible that says:

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

also says:

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

and yet that writer himself said:

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I have personally met many God fearing God loving Christians living in the USA contrary to the laws of the USA because they simply could not "provide for their own" in the countries from whence they came and were left with no other alternative than to migrate here and work whatever low paying wearisome job they could to be able to send something back home to provide for their families.

Some Americans who have visited their countries say: "oh they can survive, they just want to live more wealthy"... (which is true of some) but if the same Americans had the communication skills to communicate with some of them, they would not jump so quickly to that conclusion.

The horror stories of the life risking trip itself are an indication to me that things must be quite bad where they come from. I have had to console a young man over the phone whose girlfriend slipped while trying to jump on the train, lost both legs and bled to death. I've seen many pictures of limbless train mounting victims. I've heard them tell of getting kidnapped and watching people get their fingers cut off joint by joint until they would give a family member's phone number, and if that number produced no money, they were shot in the back of the head and killed. Many have told me of rattlesnakes and thirst, so intense that they gladly drank from a cow's drinking hole, and many other dangers along the way.

Some have told me of people in their villages literally dying of hunger in times of drought. Many struggle to communicate with me in Spanish because their native language is an Indian dialect. After generations of poverty in their native countries many having grown up with no shoes to wear and most of them with little education, they make the dangerous journey to better the situation for their families.

98% of them are direct descendants of the native Americans who traveled these continents freely until the Europeans came and invaded their territory. My ancestors broke most of their tribal laws (and as has already been noted) broke the laws of England in order to set up the governments and laws that now rule.

Knowing what I know, how can I possible urge them to disregard God's Word and DO NOT "provide for their own" in an effort to obey border laws that have needed a revamping for several decades?

It saddens me to hear smug American Christians hypocritically condemn them when if they were in the same situation, they would most certainly have done the same exact thing. We have so many twisted laws now (and the number daily grows) that MOST Americans break EPA, OSHA and traffic laws on a daily basis just to survive and yet they would condemn that Guatemalan Quiché Indian who crossed the border without proper authorization.

If the EPA prohibited use of a really good well on your property, and your children were dying of thirst, would you give them to drink from the prohibited well, or would you let them die in compliance with the EPA?

By the way, if you are working someone at heights above 6 feet without a guard rail, or safety net, they must have a personal fall arrest system/safety harness or you are breaking OSHA laws.

Well I am absolutely certain that we have forgotten some of the basic tenants of scripture. In the past the United States of America has enjoyed the blessings of God because the people of the United States believed themselves to be responsible to listen to and to obey the word of God. And never in the history of the world has there been a nation so blessed of God as has been the United States of America.
However consider the following scripture for a moment:
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
If an immigrant should valiantly enter the United States of America and cherish the very same principles that caused our country to be blessed -- I salute him or her. But, if a person enters our country simply to partake of "prosperity" without the commitment to those self same values that were the roots of the tree that produced the prosperity than that person is motivated by lust and greed and God in no part of scripture is obligated to bless that person -- It matters very little if I take care of my own or even if I "take care" of a multitude if that provision is the fruit of sin.
We have already been awash with the prosperity preachers that have forsaken the basic foundation of real wealth and prosperity -- That of TRUE repentance and a willingness to obey the Lord Jesus Christ and to follow Him regardless of whether or not we are born into affluence in the city of New York or born into poverty in a village in Central America. We do not need to see again a false teaching develop stating that the end justifies the means: To say that it is valid to circumvent the laws of the United States and the various individual states because a party's family may need to eat better is simply situational ethics and there is no valid foundation for it in scripture.
And I am not sure which American Christians the writer refers in a condemning manner when he or she states:
"It saddens me to hear smug American Christians hypocritically condemn them when if they were in the same situation, they would most certainly have done the same exact thing. We have so many twisted laws now (and the number daily grows) that MOST Americans break EPA, OSHA and traffic laws on a daily basis just to survive and yet they would condemn that Guatemalan Quiché Indian who crossed the border without proper authorization."
Are you referring to the millions of American Christians who have donated millions and millions of dollars to the missionary efforts that have been sent to every third world country on the face of the planet?
No let us defer to the scriptures above once again and remember some of the things God does allow judgement for; even upon entire cultures. The curses are a direct result of living under judgement which arises as a direct result to sins such as idolatry, human sacrifice, etc... Which have been and sometimes are even now sins common in many third world countries. And what native American tribe do you refer to as being supplanted -- Was it a native American tribe that did not have a local "Witch Doctor"? Now, please let us reflect upon the multitude of examples we have in scripture wherein the spiritual applications of people choosing to worship and follow the one true God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and those who chose to worship and follow all the other demi-gods of the nether world -- which cultures were blessed? Another thing I find very interesting is the scripture that alludes to one of the curses of not obeying God will be that the foreigner in our midst shall have rule over us.
The blessings, prosperity and miracles of God are not limited by national borders. God does and will always cross man's borders to bestow His blessings upon His people. I would suggest to you that the conditions in many third world countries are a direct result of the spiritual laws which all men are subject to. And, in that respect "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can not take the country out of the boy." And, I do not think we need to worry ourselves too much about an illegal alien's presence in the United States as it appears to me that the United States will herself be, and very soon, a third world country. But, let us pray that this does not happen. Let us pray that multitudes of people in all nations will repent and follow Jesus Christ. Through those acts of obedience we pray that many people, in many nations will walk in and enjoy the blessings of God and not to be partakers in the curses.

Havok: Based on what you have said and described, i encourage you to speak whatever God puts on your heart next meeting and not worry about 'backlashes' or 'resolutions'. Speak the Word boldfully. If we stand on the Word of God, we have an eternal stance. If we stand on other things, they will fall. You could also bring up 2 Peter 2 where it speaks of those who despise authority and speak evil of dignitaries. Those same people are in the same light as false prophets/teachers (earlier verses).

Quote: I don't tell this to everyone, though. I don't like being blamed for the world's worst musical instrument- the bagpipe, or the worst male fashion item- the kilt.

The hairs on my body stand up straight when I hear the pipes playing. As for the kilt, I don't like to wear it as it is a bit itchy, but my wife always asks me to wear it for weddings as she likes to see me dressed in it.

Quote: I understand nationalism as well as anyone, in fact I would argue, coming from a fiercely nationalistic country like Scotland, that I may have a greater understanding of a fierce nationalistic spirit.

It's a terrible curse to be taught from a young age to be a proud Scot and to hate another group of people, the English, then on top of that the Cathoilc-Prodestant rivalry. Nationalism (patriotism)and sectarianism stirs very strong emotions inside men.