From a Russian Gulag

In the shadow of the cross in persecution, doctrine and theology become irrelevant in laying down one's life for Christ.

Blaine Scogin

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I don't agree with this based on how it is written. It sounds good but just as the thread posted by Greg said you can not make something bad, into something good. The false and deceiving teaching of the Roman Catholic church can not be made good with a feel good story. It may sound harsh to say but the truth is if the priest in this story died and went to his death holding firm to the lies and traditions of the RCC then there is every reason to believe he would not be with JESUS on the other side of eternity. We can live our lives with the thought of I will have a little Jesus and a little of this religion and that and think God will be ok with it but the Bible tells a different story. HE wants our whole heart and nothing less. How can a priest if he dies unrepentant, who spent his life teaching and sharing that Mary is equal to JESUS, that Mary is co redeemer, that Mary is to be prayed to, that dead saints are to be prayed to, that the pope is the vicar of Christ, that men need and intermediary between themselves and God other then Jesus, ect. How can that person be saved if they die holding on to this as truth and placing their hope and faith in these things. If I apply the logic from this story then why not the Mormon as well? There are plenty of Mormons who claim to love Jesus and live and would willingly die for "their" version of Jesus. God set the standard, JESUS alone is the way the truth and the light. Stories like this give false hope to those lost in the RCC.

How one lives and how one dies does matter if they are holding on to anything other then CHRIST JESUS. There is only hope and salvation in HIM. Perhaps bear when you read this you see it differently because you being filled with the Holy Spirit see something different, but my mother who is lost in false religion of the RCC would see this story as proof that the Catholic Priest can go to be with the LORD even though his heart was divided between the LORD and the Catholic Church.

God bless
maryjane

After thought: This story would have held more meaning if no religion had been mentioned and each man was clinging to CHRIST only as LORD and SAVIOR and sharing JESUS only with those around them. I should explain I love those lost in the Catholic church and I pray for them to see HIS truth, to repent and cling to HIM only.

by sermonindex on 2013/10/29 6:58:55

Sister,

I would agree with you in this way. Also I would agree with Blaine that the fires of persecution can bring out true conversions or refine and convert the religious. Once those who are in a jail cell apart from their system of christendom they start to consider the Christ alone.

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I understand that as well and yet for every Catholic(like my mom) who reads these kinds of stories it seems to cement in even deeper the idea and notion that they are fine and will go to be with the LORD even though they hold a divided heart between JESUS and the RCC. Perhaps what I wrote seemed harsh, if it did its only because I love those lost in this false system and fear they will one day stand before the LORD having placed their trust in falsehoods and lies and hear HIM say depart from me I have never known you. My own mother is getting older and has been ill and I pray for her still, her faith is in mary and the holy catholic church as well as JESUS. JESUS deserves our whole heart doesn't HE?

I will close by saying I meant no offense to Blaine, I know his heart is filled with love for the persecuted. I just really am learning that every word we type or speak is so important and we will give an account. Even in typing this my prayer is LORD let my words reflect YOU and none of me.

Thank you for allowing me to share this burden on my heart this morning.
God bless
mj

"I am a Protestant, but we have had near us Catholic bishops and monks and nuns about whom we felt that the touching of their garments heals. We were not worthy to untie their shoelaces. Such men have been mocked and tortured in our country. And even if it would mean to go back to a Rumanian prison, to be kidnaped by the Communists and going back and tortured again, I cannot be quiet. I owe it to those who have suffered there."
- RICHARD WURMBRAND from COMMUNIST EXPLOITATION OF RELIGION HEARING

by proudpapa on 2013/10/29 7:43:41

"I am a Protestant, but we have had near us Catholic bishops and monks and nuns about whom we felt that the touching of their garments heals. We were not worthy to untie their shoelaces. Such men have been mocked and tortured in our country. And even if it would mean to go back to a Rumanian prison, to be kidnaped by the Communists and going back and tortured again, I cannot be quiet. I owe it to those who have suffered there."
- RICHARD WURMBRAND from COMMUNIST EXPLOITATION OF RELIGION HEARING

______________________________________

I have read Richard Wurmbrand writing and I appreciate what he has shared. I know some wonderful Catholic, I know some very kind, generous, and giving Mormons too. People who demonstrate real love towards others but still hold to the teachings of their chosen religion. So does JESUS expect us to walk with HIM alone or is a divided heart a way to salvation? Can I believe what ever I want to and go to heaven and be with the LORD, can I pray to Mary, worship her as co redeemer and still go to heaven and be with the LORD? What does the Bible say? I am sincerely asking what does the Bible say on this topic? If I am wrong then I want to be corrected...

What does matter is HIS truth and I am asking sincerely does the RCC teach Biblical truth?

God bless
maryjane

///What does matter is HIS truth and I am asking sincerely does the RCC teach Biblical truth?///

No,

but I do believe that their is most likely some true born again believers within the RCC.

MaryJane,

Thank you for your response. I completely get the notion that there are minor doctrinal issues that we can agree to disagree on and still love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. But, in this age of relativism we must be careful to not throw out all doctrine for the sake of unity. We still love all men but the Bible is clear on the definition of what it means to be Christian and our primary responsibility is to lead all men, regardless of how evil or sincere, loving, moral, and service-driven they are, to the truth of the gospel.

I never thought I would see a time where a stand for sound doctrine would be criticized, particularly from within the body of Christ but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at all as it is written:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.." 2 Tim 4:3

God bless!

Hi rjennings,

RE: /// I never thought I would see a time where a stand for sound doctrine would be criticized, particularly from within the body of Christ but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at all as it is written : ..///

Who in this thread has criticized sound doctrine ??

Because some believe that there have been true Christians with in the RCC such as Madame Guyon, and that there is a possability that there could still be a few true Christians within the RCC, you somehow believe that we are opposed to sound doctrine ?

All on this thread are very opposed to the RCC !

Edited:

As I said to Greg I do understand the purpose of the story I just can see as one who was lost in the RCC how the wording in the story can be taken and twisted by one lost in the traditions of these false religions. I have been accused of hating Catholic before and nothing could be further from the truth, are there people who love the LORD in the RCC church, probably will they continue saying the Rosary, praying to mary, and promising allegiance to the papacy? NO! How could they if they are truly saved and born again in JESUS.

I do not wish to argue I just long to see those lost in the RCC come out of that dead religion and be saved. I pray that they will see the sin in their life and repent just as each of us must do.

Perhaps as hard as it is to hear, the BIBLE does tell us not all who claim to know HIM really do. Many will say LORD LORD and HE will say depart from me. I just keep praying that those lost in the RCC who believe sincerely that they are saved and place their faith in both JESUS and mary will see the truth before it is to late.

God bless
mj

after thought: I pray also for those who are lost in these other religions would see the truth as well. I think Neil was right when he posted in another thread that the term Christian has come to mean something other then those who willing take up their cross, follow JESUS and submit to HIM as LORD of their lives. Today many different religions call themselves Christian and are filled with those who are not born again, who do not know or walk with JESUS, and who live in open and will full rebellion to HIM. There is a standard...JESUS alone is the Way, the TRUTH, and the LIGHT!

proudpapa,

Sorry if I'm a little sensitive on this subject but I've confronted this issue head-on recently in my church where hyper-grace theology is embraced. In one breath everyone agrees that we all strive to adhere to sound doctrine but in the other states that doctrinal disputes does nothing but divide the body of Christ. You can't have it both ways! If the gospel is being perverted to the extent that there are no genuine conversions what are we left with? We may as well stick Mormon on the door...or pick your poison.

I frequent this board enough to know the heart of most you who post. I'm simply concerned over what I see as a slippery slope that many are on to expand the boundaries of Christianity beyond that defined in scripture.

God bless!

Hi rjennings,

Thankyou very much for explaining the reason for your sensitivity and concern for this type of subject.

I am vey opposed to the RCC. and to the Gospel of lasciviousness.

Forum is the message clear? Do you understand what is being conveyed?..Are you going to give your allegoance to a system of doctrine of to the slain Lamb of God. Add you going to lay down your lives for TULIP or for Jesus Christ? Does anyone understand what I am saying?
Blaine Scogin

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As I said to Greg I did understand what you were saying from the beginning with your post but took issue because of the wording in the story. If you, I, my mom, and my brother are all locked in that camp together, each of us swearing we love JESUS and each of us kneels to pray the difference would be you and I would cry out to JESUS alone while my mom and brother(both whom are catholic would reach for their rosary or begin to pray to Mary or one of the many dead saints as well as JESUS. Do you understand the difference in that? Each one of us is ready to die for JESUS but two of the four are placing our hope and faith in something other then the LORD alone...

God bless
maryjane

by bearmaster on 2013/10/29 11:57:07

Forum I ask you again. Are you going to die for correct doctrine or for Jesus Christ? Does anyone have courage to answer this? Does anyone know what I.am talking about?

Ate you more passionate about Jesus Cbrist or your doctrine?

Blaine Scogin

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Blaine dear brother I will answer. Of course I want to follow JESUS and live my life for HIM only but there are instances where doctrine does matter, as in this case with the RCC and the Mormons too. If I say it doesn't matter what the RCC believe(when it does) then I do them a disservice by allowing them to believe a lie. JESUS is the only WAY, TRUTH and LIGHT. GOD is a jealous GOD and as HIS child I will stand firm in HIS truth, there are some things that do matter...HE sets the standard and we don't get to change it that is just the way it is.

God bless
mj

Bearmaster,

I think your intent is to bring unity in light of the controversy over the Strange Fire conference which is commendable. I’m old enough to remember when Dave Hunt released Seduction of Christianity in the mid-eighties. I have friends who still believe Dave to be the antichrist and accused him of yellow-journalism and wailed over how much harm he did to the body of Christ. I personally believe the opposite is true. I took issue over much of what was being promoted then in the name of Pentecostalism as I do today. I appreciated the effort he took to deal with the individuals rather than to generalize while others thought that his name-calling was out-of-line. The opposite appears to have occurred with Strange Fire and controversy still prevails but I still think if we Pentecostals take the larger picture to heart and acknowledge we have some housekeeping to do now as we did then, the Body of Christ at large will benefit.

I’m still a large Dave Hunt fan BTW. :-)

God Bless!

Mary Jane,

Persecution does something to people. It is like heat: heat will harden an egg and it will also soften a hard potato. So is persecution. While your family may be "stuck" in their RC rituals as having redeeming value, all these things may lose their value once they are faced with the probability of dying. When faced with death life assumes a far different perspective. But then not all will change when faced with a situation in which one is totally helpless to improve his lot. This is what Blaine was telling us when he shared this story.

I do not know if you are aware, but we earnestly believe in Believer's baptism. This was a hot issue the Anabaptists had with the Catholics, the Lutherans and the Reformers during the Reformation era (1500s). Many Anabaptists were severely persecuted by these groups (history tells us the Reformers were more severe in their persecution then the Catholics!) because of this issue. It was not quite this simple, but for the conversation, this will do.

Now - Richard Wurmbrand is a Lutheran! He explained his affiliation with it because this is the first form of Christianity he was exposed to. Do I as one who hold to believer's baptism discount his testimony based on his belief in baptism? The evidence is overwhelming how the LORD changed this man's heart - mode of baptism notwithstanding. I think one sees the mercy, grace of God working in spite of doctrine and for this one can only sit back and be awed. Doctrine is very important, but it does not save in and of itself. It is important that one has an idea of who God is, how he works and man's response to Him, but there is a dimension of God that we cannot fathom. And this is what the incident Blaine shared, and Wurmbrand's testimony teaches us.

Mary Jane, I still believe and teach Believer's baptism, Richard Wurmbrand notwithstanding.

Does this make sense, Mary Jane?

God bless.

Sandra

Greeting ginnyrose

I did understand what Blaine shared and I do understand his point as well but at the same time I know of many catholic who go to their death holding firm in their faith to the Roman catholic church, Mary, and Jesus. My dad as you know was one such person. He died confessing to a priest and not Jesus.

Thank you for sharing ginnyrose always good to hear your insights.
I agree God can change a heart no matter what sin there is it can be forgiven through Jesus.

God bless
Mj