The Disturbing Spirit of Strange Fire

sermonindex Nov 2, 2013

In the midst of the discussion and debate raging about the Strange Fire conference. I find myself getting uneasy over the spirit that has tone out of this conference

I speak of a spirit that reminds of 16th century Geneva Switzerland. I speak of a spirit that had Sevetus put to death as a heretic. A spirit that hunted down the Anabaptists like rabbits and had them put to death. A spirit that was brought to this country and resulted in the Salem witch trials. A spirit that resulted in the persecution of people like Roger Williams and Ann Hutchinson. A spirit that killed the Son of God and martyred Stephen. I speak of the spirit of religion.

Indeed there are abuses that need to be addressed in the charismatic movement. And correction is needed. But one has to question the effectiveness of a national conference and ask did it achieve its desired result. If it was to promote a book by a national recognized Bibke expositor. Probably so. But if it was to bring correction to the charismatic movement I would say no.

One poster wisely observed that it would have been better if charismatic leaders had been confronted behind closed doors and that done in love. But is the desire of Strange Fire to confront heresy or is there another agenda?

That question comes to mind when one hears the opening lines in the conference "that you are elect". Even if it was meant as a joke. To hear that any in the charismatic movement are hell bound or not considered as Christians become quite disturbing. When men start implying that if the movement can't police itself but they have appointed themselves to police it. I think of Calvin and Geneva.

I dare say if these men of Strange Fire were in charge five hundred years ago were in charge then I and a few others would be hunted down as heretics. Indeed one of the main speakers at this conference lauded John Calvin so much one would ask of him what do you think of Jesus.

This is the disturbing spirit coming out of Strange Fire. A new breed of religious elitism. A new breed of Pharisseeism. Bottom line if you do not believe the way we say you believe then you are consigned to hell. And this is very disturbing

Bearmaster.

B

brothagary Nov 2, 2013

it think you need to get some sleap ,that sounds like paranoia,,and bascicly sounds as bad as what came out of the strange fire conference

just my opinion

I would be more concerned about liberalism being a subject of persecution towards ,charismatics and fundamentalist and Calvinists ,and Arminian holiness movements

brother just have a rest and don't let it bother you so much and focus of Christ ,,and count your self blessed if you suffer ,,,,,,,,god will work all things according to the counsel of his will ,,don't get caught up in looking down at Calvinism ,like some charismatics do ,,its no different to what every one is saying Macarthur is doing

it doesn't make us continuest look wise and loving

god bless us all with long suffering

sermonindex Nov 2, 2013

Dear Bearmaster

I was offended by some things that were said at the conference and the 'in joking' and dislike the extremes of Calvinism myself. I don't however think that there is any danger of Geneva being reborn.

Perhaps Calvinists will listen to criticism about their own errors if a spirit of openness to discussing the errors of chrismaticism was established particularly when charismatics themselves see a great need of reformation. Neither side has got it right, ie neither side is preaching a gospel which is bearing the fruit of holiness. If they were, they would be pleased to hear of their errors as seen by others. The fact that either side is seeing the other as 'attacking' really shows their lack of spiritual maturity.

J

Jeremy221 Nov 2, 2013

Hi Bear,

As a fair and just look at your grief, I would challenge you to reflect a little more. You expressed offense at not being counted a Christian by the other group. Have you dealt with seeking the esteem of men? You challenged them about exalting John Calvin rather than looking only to Jesus Christ then you defended the Charismatic identity as separate and other from their group. Is your identity solely in Christ or does it reside with another group too? Are you guilty of esteeming someone more than Christ because you feel their views most closely reflect your own? Or can you say God has taught you by His Spirit in all things and by all means? Please think on these things in prayer before the Lord.

M

MaryJane Nov 2, 2013

Greetings Bear

I think you are hitting on something others aren't seeing here. I do believe there is spirit here at work. A spirit of division that is working among those who claim to love JESUS. I do believe this spirit of division is working to cause strife and anger among GOD'S children and sadly it appears to be working as you have what looks like to camps forming ready to continue the debate. We may not see people being put to death as they were years ago, but then again murder can take place in the heart of men with words and thoughts. After all the Bible said if you hate your brother you've have just as much as killed him.

1 John 3:15
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Time to be in prayer.
God bless
maryjane

sermonindex Nov 2, 2013

Bearmaster, I have appreciated the spirit of many of your posts, but I do share with some of the others in this thread a worry about the tone of what you have said here.

I wasn't at the conference, nor have I had the opportunity to listen to all the messages that were presented there - though I have listened to some. I am genuinely sorry that this conference has given the impression that MacArthur and other Calvinists believe most charismatics are not saved. I don't know if that was the impression they meant to leave, but on that score (at least) I would have to disagree with them. But I do think some of the debate that has come out of this conferences is a result of the tendency on the other side to similarly overgeneralize.

I am a 5 point Calvinist of the Reformed tradition. No-one from my denomination or sister denominations was represented at the conference... most those men were dispensational Calvinists. So if you absolutely must generalize do be more particular about it and level your concerns at the dispensational Calvinists rather than the rest of us.

Of course, there is a very good reason why our reformed denominations do not have such conferences. If we had a concern we would deal with it at a synod meeting (see Acts 15). But when you are of the Baptist persuasion you have to hold a conference because there is no structure of church authority to deal with the perceived excesses and/or doctrinal problems.

I would hope MacArthur didn't hold a conference to promote a book, and I wouldn't dare to suggest it. I don't know his heart. "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hiden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God..." But I do know that he has expressed hope even for Roman Catholics, that while their doctrines are not helpful so long as they trust in Jesus Christ alone they will be saved; so I am fairly certain he has been misunderstood. He would never say that if you do not believe what we believe you are consigned to hell. But I do think he would caution that there are many who profess 'Lord, Lord' who are none of his - and the issue isn't their doctrinal disagreement (continuist vs. cessationist). This issue is their lack of fruit and their excessive preoccupation with signs and wonders in place of Jesus Christ.

This isn't the place to defend Calvin on the Servetus question, but if you were more familiar with that part of church history I think you would have a very different take on the situation.

MaryJane wrote, ///I think you are hitting on something others aren't seeing here. I do believe there is spirit here at work. A spirit of division that is working among those who claim to love JESUS. I do believe this spirit of division is working to cause strife and anger among GOD'S children and sadly it appears to be working as you have what looks like to camps forming ready to continue the debate. We may not see people being put to death as they were years ago, but then again murder can take place in the heart of men with words and thoughts. After all the Bible said if you hate your brother you've have just as much as killed him.///

I have seen a better spirit here at sermonindex. I have seen brothers and sisters on opposite sides rejoicing together in their common love of the Lord. We will, of course, go on defending what we believe are Bible truths even as you respond (in the very same spirit) to the conference by defending what you believe are Bible truths... but I am grateful that I have seen at this website evidence of humility and grace and a zeal for Christ.

M

MaryJane Nov 2, 2013

MaryJane wrote, ///I think you are hitting on something others aren't seeing here. I do believe there is spirit here at work. A spirit of division that is working among those who claim to love JESUS. I do believe this spirit of division is working to cause strife and anger among GOD'S children and sadly it appears to be working as you have what looks like to camps forming ready to continue the debate. We may not see people being put to death as they were years ago, but then again murder can take place in the heart of men with words and thoughts. After all the Bible said if you hate your brother you've have just as much as killed him.///

I have seen a better spirit here at sermonindex. I have seen brothers and sisters on opposite sides rejoicing together in their common love of the Lord. We will, of course, go on defending what we believe are Bible truths even as you respond (in the very same spirit) to the conference by defending what you believe are Bible truths... but I am grateful that I have seen at this website evidence of humility and grace and a zeal for Christ.
______________________

I appreciate your thoughts but I still see a spirit of division at work here, and if allowed could cause anger and bitterness in the hearts of men. I should clarify in writing what I have I neither support nor do I defend the conference. I have not watched or listened to any of it and I don't intend to. I base my observation on the number of threads that has dominated this web site concerning this topic. You are right, there has not been name calling yet but as history as shown us here in this forum it can and sadly often does come to that.(I pray it does not.)

God bless
mj

sermonindex Nov 2, 2013

Well said dear sister.

I think you are hitting on something others aren't seeing here. I do believe there is spirit here at work. A spirit of division that is working among those who claim to love JESUS. I do believe this spirit of division is working to cause strife and anger among GOD'S children and sadly it appears to be working as you have what looks like to camps forming ready to continue the debate. We may not see people being put to death as they were years ago, but then again murder can take place in the heart of men with words and thoughts. After all the Bible said if you hate your brother you've have just as much as killed him.
1 John 3:15
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

B

brothagary Nov 3, 2013

I would not denie that there is division working in both camps ,,but it is realy no different between the Arminian and Calvinist divisive arguments ,and out look ,,it been happening and will keep happening more then likely ,,,,,if we continuests want he can focas on devision and casue more ,or we can be like dr brown ,,and try to wok it out in love ,,,,,,,

show you strength charity patience ....andactt like a Christian ,,,even if the others don't ,,,,,,love your brothers and rise above is foolishness ,,,,who cares what others brother do be a Christian and don't become another stumbling block towards the young in Christ in both these camps

SET THE EXAMPLE

S

savannah Nov 3, 2013

Rather than looking to see what you perceive the devil to be doing,it would do well for you to see what God is doing.

Would to God that we'd take upon us the spirit of Job -

Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell upon the ground, and worshiped, And said, Naked came I from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: The LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. Job 1:20,21

Do as Job did. Fall upon the ground and worship God.

"WORSHIP GOD." Rev. 19:10 and 22:9

sermonindex Nov 3, 2013

That dear sister I will do. Worship God. Come pray with us and see what Gid is doing in the nations, among the persecuted.

Call info on thread Please pray for the persecuted Nov.3"

Bear.

B

brothagary Nov 3, 2013

can I do that in Australia blain ,,iv always wondered how to

T

turn Nov 3, 2013

John MacArthur has fruit in his life that indicates that he has the Holy Spirit or else he would not belong to the people of God. John MacArthur also has extensive Bible knowledge that has instructed many.

…Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

It is because God has given us his Spirit that "we know that we live in him and he in us” (1 John 4:13). Without his Spirit there can be no assurance of salvation.

It is good to be alert. Among professing Christians, there are instances of false prophets, false teachers and false charisma. Be mature and have your senses exercised to discern good and evil.

The world is watching the Christians fight. So let love cover the foibles of others and avoid divisions of following Paul, Apollos and/or Cephas (1 Corinthians 1:12). Follow Jesus Christ (John 1:43) and let Christ be proclaimed (Acts 5:42).

Miracles don't save or else Pharaohs and Pharisees would have come to saving faith long ago under the miracles done by Moses and Jesus Christ.

L

Lysa Nov 4, 2013

turn wrote:
John MacArthur has fruit in his life that indicates that he has the Holy Spirit or else he would not belong to the people of God. John MacArthur also has extensive Bible knowledge that has instructed many.
…Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

I don’t believe anyone has said he is not a child of God, have they? I know that I haven’t read every post on this subject. But your quote above I agree with and makes this all the more sad that this brother is declaring war on other brothers in the Lord.

I have insisted throughout this whole debacle that all these Scriptures apply to BOTH sides of the aisle, do they not? For those you want to admit that McArthur has the Holy Spirit, then by the same measuring stick you must admit that Pentecostals and Charismatic’s also have the Holy Spirit.

It is good to be alert. Among professing Christians, there are instances of false prophets, false teachers and false charisma. Be mature and have your senses exercised to discern good and evil.

Can we agree that not all false prophets and teachers are found in "only” the Pentecostal/ Charismatic camp? I sure hope so!

God bless,
Lisa

L

Lysa Nov 4, 2013

Brother Bear,

This is very disturbing but God is in control. John MacArthur has not taken God by surprise! We know thru the Scriptures that in the end there will be a Bride of Christ and a False Church; and that the FC will persecute the Bride. It will be, we just don’t know when!

MacArthur & his bunch can rant all they want, the Charismatic’s need to be about the Father’s business while MacArthur fights against the elephant in the room! Amen?!! Let's keep our eyes on the prize - Jesus!

God bless you,
Lisa

S

savannah Nov 4, 2013

BEHOLD! An emperor on an elephant! But those in the room do not pay it any mind.

Just as the cows walk the streets in India because it's unlawful for them to be touched.

sermonindex Nov 4, 2013

Savannah, dear sister, let us pray those in demonic darkness in India be delivered from the bondage of Hinduism. And brought into the light and freedom of Jesus.

We would have gladly welcomed your prayers in our call yesterday

Bearmaster.

S

savannah Nov 4, 2013

Bearmaster,

Thanks so much for your invitation to prayer. I am responding that you may know that I do not take such lightly. I'm keenly aware of the warfare that is present even on the homefront,i.e.; our own backyard,as well as abroad. This present darkness we know shall be no more on the day appointed. Until then we'll persevere with "all prayer."

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints. Eph. 6:18

Praying fervently,

Savannah - (btw - I am a son of God not a daughter)