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When did the church lose it's way? (part 2)

sermonindex Nov 6, 2013

THE CONSTANTINE CONTAGION

Let us look at what kind of Kingdom Constantine built. You decide if he initiated and contaminated Christendom with a contagion that lasts until this day, that created the Catholic church and also the reformed church. In 313 Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. This granted freedom of religion to all men, including Christians. I know that this may come as a shock to many American Christians, but yes, there was freedom of religion prior to some settlements in the colonies. Constantine went on and decreed that the properties stolen from Christians during the persecution would be returned. He also decreed that the houses of prayer that were burned would be rebuilt and paid for by the state. And even with that , Constantine was not finished. He decided in his earthly wisdom and undoubted friendliness towards those of the Christian faith that they should have very fine buildings in which to worship, very much larger structures since it was now the favored religion of the state. The previous modest houses of prayer would be too small to hold the large crowds that would now come, so he built them " churches," that were more ornate than the pagan temples of the day.

So we went from a faith that met in very modest houses of prayer to highly ornate temples of worship. We went from a faith that was persecuted by the state to a faith that was made an amalgam of the state. Constantine further recognized that most bishops and deacons lived on or near the poverty line. Now think about that saints-saints on or near the poverty line. Now this was often by choice, men gladly giving up their estates, but nevertheless that is how most bishops and deacons lived prior to the great persecution of Diocletian. Now Constantine thought this most improper that men of the status of a bishop or a deacon should live in such a manner. So Constantine decided that the state would pay them a handsome salary. Think about it saints. Just a few years before Christendom had faced the most sever persecution and now here was Constantine, building extravagant buildings called churches and paying bishops and deacons handsome salaries. Brilliant strategy of the Devil? Good cop bad cop syndrome with Diocletian and Constantine? I would argue that it could only have happened against the backdrop of such a great persecution. Prior to this men of God would not even take governmental roles never mind have the state pay for ornate buildings and receive a wage from them. One more thing, Constantine decreed that these churches did not have to pay property tax, which was one of the main ways Rome raised revenue.

Now how would the saints react to all of this? Well we soon see a split. And the split was basically along the lines of who stood firm during the persecution and those who did not. This would come to a head in a city in North Africa called Carthage. In that city, two groups developed. And much like the Novationists form 100 years prior, the Donatists did not care for not want to include in the Church those who had denied their faith during the great persecution. So we had two groups of " leaders ' vying for control in Carthage. There were two bishops and two sets of deacons. On the one side were the so-called Donatists, and on the other side the Catholics. So, two groups but only one state- built fancy church and only one set of salaries. Bercot writes " In the past, this controversy would have been purely an internal church matter. But Constantine's " blessings ' to the church created a whole new issue. Which Bishop would receive the handsome salary offered by the State? Which Bishop and which group of presbyters would receive tax exemption? Which Bishop would have charge of the magnificent new church building that had been rebuilt at state expense." ( The Kingdom That Turned The World Upside Down , page 166)

It was eventually appealed to Constantine and he found in favor of the Catholics. The Catholics were established. Constantine even gifted the Lateran palace to them, which became the residence of the Popes for the next one thousand years. And of course from that point on every persecution that came against the true kingdom saints would come from , what Bercot calls a hybrid. The church which had formerly refused to take positions within the government , and had lived a humble and modest life, had been persecuted, now took roles within the state. They lived very well at the expense of the state and then became the persecutors of those Kingdom saints who are and have and always will be identified by their obedience to Jesus and their willingness to die rather than deny their faith. Rome and the church that had mostly denied their faith during the great persecution merged. And of course when Rome fell, the established church did not, it only became more powerful. This goes beyond anything that you would read in Lewis's " Screwtape Letters." This was quite simply, a brilliant plan by the deadliest foe of genuine Christianity, Satan.

WE ARE NOT IGNORANT OF HIS DEVICES.........ARE WE?

Now where does that leave the remnant saint today ? How will the established church once again become so immersed in the state that they become one and then become the enemy of the Kingdom saints? When the world infiltrates and dominates the church then their concerns become one and the same. What threatens the world threatens the church and so they stand together to deal with the threat. What was born in the Constantine period has not changed, whether it was the Catholic church or the schisms of the Reformation that would create state churches like the church of England or the Lutheran church. We can see that the very same pattern has developed here in the United States, where the Evangelical church has become a very powerful political force. This is a vital part of any unholy alliance where the interests of the state merge and contaminate and overcome the church. This is the Constantine contagion.

Every institution that's root can be found and traced back to the Constantine period will not stand in that day. And what I mean by that is this. When the great evil that is soon to come upon us unfolds, many of those of the contagion will fall away, will be be swept away, they will fall in line with the world. And many who now call us brothers, will soon be our persecutors. And why? Because neither the people nor their churches have built their lives or their organizations upon the Rock which is Jesus. Jesus plainly says that those who hear His Word and do not do it will fall and great will be the ruin of them. A structure or a life built on anything less than the Word of God and the carrying out of that word just simply cannot remain standing. It may take a month or several years, decades or even centuries but the Words of Jesus cannot be broken. Now just as the Kingdom saints all down through the ages have separated themselves from the evils of contaminated institutions and refused to be a part of them, so we see this happening again in our day. The time of peace is coming to an end for Christendom in the west. The great valley of decision lies ahead for those who call themselves after the name of Jesus. In that valley lies persecution and blasphemy and men who do not heed the words of Jesus. Who will stand?

Those who will stand are those who love the Lord Jesus more than they love their country, more than they love their culture, more than they love their friends, more than they love even their own families. They love Jesus more than a comfortable life and more than what this world has to offer. Those who will stand are the pilgrim saints, the sojourners, the Kingdom saints, the remnant. They will stand because they are already dead to this world and alive to the Kingdom of God in which they already walk. Twice- born saints, now born into a Kingdom that was and is and is to come. They serve the King of this Kingdom with all of their hearts. They always have, they do now and they always will. This is the eternal Kingdom of God and no amount of persecution can change that, all it can do is reveal who is the Kingdom saint and who is not.

M
MaryJane Nov 6, 2013

Frank wrote:Those who will stand are those who love the Lord Jesus more than they love their country, more than they love their culture, more than they love their friends, more than they love even their own families. They love Jesus more than a comfortable life and more than what this world has to offer. Those who will stand are the pilgrim saints, the sojourners, the Kingdom saints, the remnant. They will stand because they are already dead to this world and alive to the Kingdom of God in which they already walk. Twice- born saints, now born into a Kingdom that was and is and is to come. They serve the King of this Kingdom with all of their hearts. They always have, they do now and they always will. This is the eternal Kingdom of God and no amount of persecution can change that, all it can do is reveal who is the Kingdom saint and who is not.

_______________________________

Wonderful! really appreciated what you shared here. A very direct question asked "Who will stand?" but one I think very soon we will all be considering and asking ourselves. Another good reminder, "Am I already dead to the things of this world or am I allowing something to hold onto my heart?" I think upon this often, where are my treasures, men can only take things from me that I treasure, the things that matter most are the things buried in HIM and men can not touch them!

Thank you so much for sharing this here with us.

God bless
maryjane

sermonindex Nov 6, 2013

Great insights and challenges, may we learn from history and the choice is ours today to stand alone with Jesus Christ or religion in His Name or even worse State in His Name.

sermonindex Nov 7, 2013

I believe after the Apostles died, the Church began losing it's way. Some of it started before they died.

Act_20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

sermonindex Nov 7, 2013

"I believe after the Apostles died, the Church began losing it's way. Some of it started before they died."

There always comes a point where one has to make a decision, make a stand. In various times in your Christian life the enemy will come in like a flood, and sometimes the period just after a great battle can be the most dangerous. We can see that with the prophet on the mountain who ends up on the run from Jezebel.

And so, while there was undoubtedly problems, many problems within the Christendom prior to Constantine, and I mentioned the Novationists, the Constantine period was really unique in that they were truly enticed and swallowed up by the world. Persecution failed to destroy the church, but it seems that the enemy thought that if he could not beat them then he must buy them. That is why I believe it has application today in the affluent west.

What we in the west consider " blessings," from God could in fact be one of many Trojan horses designed to infiltrate and weaken, dilute and compromise Christendom. Ultimately those who identify with Christ's sufferings will not fall for the notion of these " blessings," and will see it for what it is...........bro Frank

sermonindex Nov 7, 2013

Frank, your response reminds me of something David Wilkerson said in the 70s or 80s when asked what he thought the manifestation of Satan's attack on the church in America will look like in the future. What kind of persecution would it be like.

Surprisingly (to the questioner who was expecting hard times and persecution), David said that "the enemy will give the Church everything that it wants". He was speaking in reference to earthly possessions, honor, esteem, accolades, power, money, etc, etc. David was indicting the Church for their gross worldliness and indicated that Satan was very happy about the direction of their hearts and will give them more and more of what they wanted.

That prophetic word has proven to be so true.

The Church loses it's way in every generation, yet there is always a Remnant of Believers that will not bow the knee to Baal.

sermonindex Nov 7, 2013

Hi just-in. I have been sharing for a several months now with a few brothers that I believe America is on the verge of a boom, not a financial collapse. They will be stronger and richer than they have ever been before, now I know that flies in the face of what most prophetic statements that have come forward. The collapse of 2008 was just enough to almost snatch away the American dream from so many, when it comes back it will be deeper and more strongly held onto than ever before, just at the very time we need to be holding all things very loosely............bro Frank

A
a-servant Nov 8, 2013

" I believe America is on the verge of a boom, not a financial collapse."

You really got enough of that American spirit now to call yourself an American

are you in Kansas on visa, or greencard?

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

A-servant your remark is totally out of line and in violation of SI guidelines.

I know Frank personally. He is a naturalized American citizen. He has lived in this country for over 20 years. He holds a real estate licence and sells houses in Kansas City.

Brother I feel you owe this brother an apology as he works and pays taxes as you and I do.

Bearmaster.

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

Hi a-servant. I am really not sure what your comment is alluding to, perhaps you can be more clear maybe in the form of a question? .........bro Frank

ps. While I love this land the Lord brought me too, I am a citizen of another Kingdom. God bless you a-servant.

A
a-servant Nov 8, 2013

Oh sorry, I thought you are Scottish [as in "scottishwarriors"] and living in the USA currently

ok my question is this: What is your source for that statement that America is on the verge of a boom.

it sounds so outlandish to me, that I'm not sure we generally talk about the same America.

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

I have a couple of questions in return a-servant. I am wondering if you are harboring animosity towards me for some reason? It's not that it bothers me outwith the fact that it would harm your own walk with the Lord, it's just that it puzzles me. Now take your opening comment " Oh sorry, I thought you are Scottish [as in "scottishwarriors"] and living in the USA currently"

Now I am not sure if you are aware of this, but given what bro Blaine already pointed out, this just comes across as disingenuous, perhaps I am wrong.

To your second question, the source? This is what I discern in my spirit. I have been wrong before and may in fact be wrong in this, but this is my source. I do agree that you and I speak of different America's. My position would be that you are perhaps blind as to its true state colored by national pride, which is very common. This is just an observation, I could of course be wrong.

And so I believe that the enemy has really drawn American Christianity away from God and a dependency upon Him by enriching them. It is probably worth noting that the greatest times of crisis in Israel was when they were materially prosperous, this is when men begin to " need God less." This is what I see , as part of an end time scenario, that men will grow further and further away from God. Prosperity will fuel this and the greater the prosperity the greater the pride and the arrogance and the feelings of self achievment.

Now brother, that was an honest answer to your " questions." .............. bro Frank

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

I don't think what is actually taking place is a "boom" in the economy. It is a perceived one based on the stock market and not on real data. As long as the Fed continues QE (Quantitative Easing - Printing Money) then the perceived boom continues. But 90 million are out of work, and 50 million are on food stamps. The market is kept elevated on very light volume. In other words, it is a house of cards. Remember that Zimbabwe had a stock market that was skyrocketing, too...but later, people were filling up grocery carts with cash just to buy some bread.

Our cash will soon be worth less than the paper it is printed on. I have friends that have cashed out of their IRAs, 401Ks, and taken most of their money out of the Bank (remember Cyprus and Greece) and they don't mind paying the penalty to do so. They feel that 70% of something is better than 100% of nothing. They have put their cash into things that they can touch and feel and trade. Things that have value and probably some silver and gold. I am not saying people should do this, just commenting on what some friends have done. Everyone should be completely convinced in their own mind how to move forward in these precarious financial times.

The boom is based on Fiat Money and major debt. A boom like that can't last too long. So, I don't know about another boom, but I do agree that since David Wilkerson wrote the book, "The Vision" that much of it has come true, not the least of which is that the Church has been given everything it wanted. The clock is ticking and much of what has been given is about to be taken away.

Trying days are coming and are already here in small measure. How will the Church react when everything is taken away? Civil Warfare or Spiritual Warfare?

Will He find faith on earth when He returns?

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

Hi just-in

We may disagree on what is to come or how the end days scenario plays out but let me make this point about " facts and figures," in a politically charged atmosphere where one believes information they receive , not on the validity of the information, but on the desire to believe the information. This was played out in the last election by two very well known political " pundits," who had, ignoring all the polls they did not like, predicted a big win for Mitt Romney. And people believed them, not based on fact, but simply on a desire to believe them. So, a small example of that........

You said that there is 9o million unemployed Americans. I am not sure where you get the number, but here are some facts.

1. Population of America according the Census. 313,914,040

2. Pop under 18- 23.5 %

3. Pop over 65- 13.7 %

4. Combining over 65s and under 18s gives us 116,776,022.4

5. Subtract that from overall pop =197,138,0176.6

6. Now, if you are correct about 90 million being unemployed, then that would put the rate of unemployment at just under 50%.

7. The highest rate of unemployment during the great depression where we saw mass poverty, people living in tin shacks and lining up for soup was 24.9% in 1933.

Now obviously my numbers did not include the mentally handicapped or genuinely disabled which would have pushed your unemployment rate to closer to 60%. But please, don't let these numbers get in the way of anyone's narrative :)..........bro Frank

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

Hi Frank,

Here is where I got it and it is reported in many other sources, too.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303902404579151843080376798


I am not trying to create a narrative and agree that much of what we here or read is really someone else's script, so we must beware.

As Neil says, much of what is out there is "smoke and mirrors", to deceive everyone (in the "Purge Surge" thread). By the way Neil, thanks for your links and I will look at them later.

Much peace in Christ to both of you brothers.


Remember: All "Conspiracy Theories" are theories until proven fact. But when proven fact, you have to admit, they were pretty accurate theories.

S
Sidewalk Nov 8, 2013

Boom is just a word. It can be used for a rapid economic increase, or for a really bad day at Hiroshima.

So, there could be a boom in America's future, and I would certainly prefer the first one.

Unfortunately, America no longer has a passion for truth and hard work. How are you going to get prosperity out of that? Prosperity is like a stool with three main legs- freedom and opportunity, energy, and morality. When a society holds these all in contempt, I have no idea where they think prosperity is going to come from. As just-in has noted, we're propping up the illusion with a free flow of un-backed fiat money. Any farmer will tell you that you can only get milk from a cow for a short time if you don't feed it.

When not playing here at the forum, I am a businessman. You would not believe how much dodging and weaving I have to do to stay profitable in a political environment that wants nothing more than to shut me down. And they are good at it, I watch businesses fold all the time as the regulations, paperwork demands, taxes and fees added to labor costs exceed the production capabilities of the workers. If a worker can produce $100 of value but it costs the company $120 to keep him employed, do the math.


There are certain inevitabilities. Since capitalism is a coward, it will flee to somewhere that allows it to flourish. That's why business is fleeing California and East Coast states, and other "blue" states and heading for red states. But there is also the undergrounding and all cash businesses that begin to grow themselves under the regulatory radar. They become dishonest just to survive, and by avoiding the taxman, shift the tax burden to those who operate within the law.

This makes the "boom" dark, as morality leaves the stool and the prosperity is stained with a culture of immorality. Guess where the money is now in California- the casinos! Yeah, that'll work!

Spiritual revival remains the only hope for this or any nation. We are so running out of time!

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

I guess you know I had to smile when I saw it was the WSJ, no bias there :)

But to a serious point just-in and in ties into the OP, you talked about some friends and so on taking out there money or maybe buying gold and so on because they fear an economic collapse of some kind. So, I was talking to a good brother last evening, he and his wife were missionaries in Belize, they are now back in Missouri. He was telling me that I would not believe the number of American Christians that have and are moving to Belize. It seems that these Christians are fearful of the collapse and how that would effect their life-styles so they have set up shop in Belize in order to protect their life-styles from an impending financial disaster.

Now it seems to me that this fear abounds, the fear of a financial collapse and what it would do to those with much to lose. ( because lets face it, if you have $10 in the banks, your not gonna lose a lot of sleep on that particular issue, especially if the unemployment rate is already 60% as your article claimed:)

So it seems that those with much to lose are the most partisan and fearful people. Yet we have not been called to be fearful or discontent, quite the opposite.

1. God is not finished with the folks of this nation, a financial collapse of tremendous proportions occurs and many cry out to God in their desperation. Praise the Lord then for whatever brings people to their senses and more especially , to their knees.

or.....

2. The folks of this nation are under judgement and will be allowed to continue to wallow in their prosperity taking them ever further from the living God.

Either scenario is viable, we shall see in due course........bro Frank

M
MaryJane Nov 8, 2013

Appolus wrote:1. God is not finished with the folks of this nation, a financial collapse of tremendous proportions occurs and many cry out to God in their desperation. Praise the Lord then for whatever brings people to their senses and more especially , to their knees.

__________________

something that I have noticed and found interesting since living here on the east coast where there are so many more people, is that when difficult times hit and things get bad people don't seem to turn toward GOD like I would have thought they would. I was shocked and really surprised at how many turned to the government for hand outs and help. Its almost as if there are those who would rather do anything else then turn to the LORD. I don't know if its pride, or bitterness or what but its like no matter what they go through they will not turn to the LORD. I don't know if something happened on a larger scale across the entire country how people would react, I almost wonder if some are so deceived that it doesn't matter what happens they just refuse to see???

God bless
mj

sermonindex Nov 8, 2013

Hi MJ

I actually think that scenario number two is more likely. I think many Christians believe that if there was such a collapse that it may bring many to their knees. It is hard to imagine that in a country that is and has been so awash with the Gospel that a rejection of it is just that, or that there is will-full ignorance involved.

If there is to be a great falling away, and I believe there is and that it is well under way, prosperity suits that better. So many times in history men have forgotten about God in the abundance of their material possessions. They begin to believe that they are self made men and that by their own bootstraps they have arrived where they are. Pride and arrogance is fueled and then contempt rises for those they consider to be less than them, perhaps calling them takers believing themselves to be the makers, thus elevating themselves above men in their own estimations. This runs counter to the notion that everything that we have comes from the gracious hand of God, and if that were truly believed it should lead men to humility, not pride nor arrogance..........bro Frank

A
a-servant Nov 9, 2013

Quote appolus: "I am wondering if you are harboring animosity towards me for some reason?"

Don't be offended, why would I do that, you are reading too much into it.

Quote appolus: "My position would be that you are perhaps blind as to its true state colored by national pride, which is very common. This is just an observation, I could of course be wrong."

And you have no idea just how wrong you are with that. Don't be offended, I understand your position that material prosperity suits America, and therefore "that's what she is going to get". Where we differ on is, that this is going to change pretty soon, and we both can continue that discussion when it happens. I noted the 3 days in June, or was it August where they tested the crash by simply announcing that QE 3 would be limited. Billions in assets were lost in these 3 days with increasing negative velocity by the hour, until Bernanke said that he changed his mind and will continue to 'print money indefinitely' in order to stimulate the markets and buy his own bonds. His announcement stopped what would have been otherwise "2008 - part 2" within another day or two.

However, a few people in higher ranks than him published articles about the "unsustainablity of that increasing QE dept cycle" - in publications where program changes are announced ahead of time of their implentation. These are not comments people write, these are directives. So it's not guess work or speculation that the end of "quantitative easing" is already a decision that has been made. With perhaps a delay of a year or two for the markets, who can tell for sure, unless involved in directing that script.


Quote just-in: "The boom is based on Fiat Money and major debt. A boom like that can't last too long."

That's pretty obvious to everyone I know, except one friend that is so intensely involved with creating wealth for himself that he refuses to look at the fundamental market facts. His oppinion is to 'ride the wave as long as it lasts'. Well, if you net 50k a month, what else can you go by? This of course limits the scope to let any facts that suggest otherwise bother you. As much as I like him as a friend, it's really disturbing how much faith he puts into this 'playing the casino' mentality and calling it 'strict business discipline'.


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