dilemma and question

Of what I can see the key difference between the Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism has to do with their understanding of what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does. Pentecostals assert that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is to bestow Pentecostal gifts, such as the speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, and power for living. Holiness churches teach that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is the bestowal of entire sanctification.

Here is my dilemma on the day I would say I was saved I was also filled with the Sprit and spoke in tongues and then many years later and seeking of God I find out that sin and self remain within me which requires an additional work to set me free (sanctification)

So I could be classed as a Pentecostal because of my experience when converted, but I also believe there is more.

1.As this was something God has lead me into through the testimony of Duncan Campbell and another witness to this a few weeks later, plus what God revealed to me of my condition.

2.When I look at the Corinthians I do see that Paul says to them 1 Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. So we can see that the Corinthians operated in the gifts but there was something more for them.

Now the question is do you know of any church that holds to both Pentecostal and Holiness teachings, or have heard of any teachings along these lines?

Good question, and an interesting dilemma!

I have a friend/ business associate who is a Christian in some kind of a church that I don't ask him much about. What I do know is that he is not open to doctrinal discussions that would expose his heart, he speaks church lingo that usually starts out: "We believe..."

That to say churches with a carefully guided theological stream produce people like that who in reality have little or no experience of being slammed to the dust in the wilderness and being taught the hard way just who God is and what He wants from them. From your posts, Colin, I would gather you are more the independent type who wants to hear directly from God than to settle into a church body who does the thinking for you.

I would have a hard time listening to someone who has all the answers for me as to how the Holy Spirit works and what He is doing. Obedient to what my mother told me I should do I accepted Christ as my personal savior when I was about 10. Then came years of teenage development and my personal quest for rebellion and sin- never giving the Holy Spirit much thought let alone a pursuit to know God. But looking back now, I see that He patiently waited me out until when I sought Him at about age 20 He met me in power. That was when I first came to believe He was real, that He loved me, that He wanted to live in and with me.

So was the Holy Spirit near me those ten years or so in my youthful nonsense? Of course! Was He pleased with my behavior and attitudes? Of course not!

But ever since that first bath I took in Him, the "Baptism" as it were, I have known that His purposes in me were to bring me to holiness and to be complete in the character of Jesus Christ. The gifts have always been just a part of that, tools toward an end, to be discarded when His building in me is complete. No I am not there yet, and both He and I still need the tools.

So if you want to come to my "church" you will know that the Holy Spirit is all about Holiness, with tool gifts available to complete a mighty work. My church in this sense is you and me together in pursuit of God's good things, Christ being by promise in our midst.

And, your story will shake out differently!

Quote: A few Pentecostal believers have tried to amalgamate entire sanctification into the scheme of things, as a separate blessing either before or after.

It would seem that the most holiness people reject what happened in Azuza Street, while most Pentecostals rejected Sanctification from that time.

http://www.finestofthewheat.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Rejected_Blessing.php

Many believers at the end of the 19th Century had no "theological room” for a fully Acts-2-like experience with the Holy Spirit. Some at first couldn’t see how the "new” Baptism in the Holy Spirit could be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (since it didn’t match their understanding of the experience of sanctification styled as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit). Men like Seymour and Parham realized that they had to adjust their theological understanding. Others, who had contended for the truth of sanctification for decades, could not see their way clear to abandon their "Baptism” terminology, and so rejected the new outpouring as "false doctrine.”

For these holiness men like Parham and Seymour who could make the leap, the experience of sanctification had to integrate theologically with God’s new work. Entire sanctification, as they understood it, had always been "a second work” or second step. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit was now a third step. To them it was perfectly logical that God’s ordo salutis (i.e., His order or steps of salvation) was:

1.salvation and regeneration, followed by water baptism;

2.crisis experience of sanctification, in which the believer received a pure heart, free from indwelling sin, thus making the believer a clean vessel, ready to be filled with…

3.the Holy Spirit and power, with tongues and other charismata manifesting themselves.

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So what we have in many churches today is.

1.salvation and regeneration, followed by water baptism

2.the Holy Spirit and power, with tongues and other charismata manifesting themselves.

Quote: So if you want to come to my "church" you will know that the Holy Spirit is all about Holiness, with tool gifts available to complete a mighty work. My church in this sense is you and me together in pursuit of God's good things, Christ being by promise in our midst.

Thank you for the story and the encouragement.

Quote: I think the holiness movement is quite broad, and while I appreciate some of krautfrau's comments I'm not sure it can be so easily pegged down.

I would say that’s a fair comment.

Quote: I would actually be interested to learn Leonard Ravenhill's position on tongues as he for a long time (I believe) was closely tied with the holiness churches.

I have tried to find it out as well but haven’t been able to find anything maybe we should contact his son David Ravenhill?

I have made contact with Jim Kerwin who wrote this article above and l hope to arrange a phone conversation with him next week.

Hi Murrcolr,
Regarding below your explanation highlight or show the importance of the gifts.Their cant be a proper functioning church without them
Yours staff
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Of what I can see the key difference between the Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism has to do with their understanding of what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does. Pentecostals assert that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is to bestow Pentecostal gifts, such as the speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, and power for living. Holiness churches teach that the purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit is the bestowal of entire sanctification
............................................................

Quote by staff: Regarding below your explanation highlight or show the importance of the gifts. Their cant be a proper functioning church without them.

Yes Staff I agree the gifts are very important and as Paul says we should covet earnestly the best gifts but there is a more excellent way. The church needs to rediscover, the love of Christ, which surpasses knowledge, that it might be filled with all the fullness of God. (Which is Holiness)

I believe there must come an amalgamation of both Pentecostal/Holiness experience and teaching.

It would be interesting to know what going on in the persecuted church in China, do they teach sanctification by faith like Watchman Nee did and operate in the gifts of the spirit?

Hi Murrcolr,
The excellent way does not negate the gifts and I have attended Pentecostal Church for years and the emphasis on love always is preached more than anything including service,
Yours Staff

Quote by staff: The excellent way does not negate the gifts.

True, but I would also say it would enhance them, sin in a man's life hinders the Holy Spirit's work.

Quote by staff: the emphasis on love always is preached more than anything including service

I don't doubt it, but to understand fully what I mean about the more excellent way you have got to dig into Holiness teaching and the heart purifying work of the Holy Ghost. Here is testimony of a holiness preacher.

Samuel Logan Brengle Testimony

He gave me such a blessing as I never had dreamed a man could have this side of Heaven. It was an unutterable revelation. It was a Heaven of love that came into my heart. My soul melted like wax before fire. I sobbed and sobbed. I loathed myself that I had ever sinned against Him or doubted Him or lived for myself and not for His glory. Every ambition for self was now gone. The pure flame of love burned like a blazing fire would burn a moth.

I walked out over Boston Commons before breakfast, weeping for joy and praising God. Oh, how I loved! In that hour I knew Jesus, and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love. I was filled with love for all His creatures. I heard the little sparrows chattering; I loved them. I saw a little worm wriggling across my path; I stepped over it; I didn’t want to hurt any living thing. I loved the dogs; I loved the horses; I loved the little urchins on the street; I loved the strangers who hurried past me; I loved the heathen; I loved the whole world

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:19 Brengle had attained the fullness of God which is to know the love of Christ , which passeth knowledge, this is what I believe Paul means by the more excellent way.

Colin: I wanted to reply to your post earlier, but have been very busy and have not had a chance to do so. Having grown up in the shadow of the men and women who knew Parham well, I am very aware of what he taught. In fact, the official doctrinal statement of the Apostolic Faith Bible College in Baxter Springs has remained largely unchanged for many, many years.

Parham was brought up in Methodism. The Methodists taught an experience they called the second blessing. After reading first hand accounts of the Cain Ridge meetings in 1801, I am convinced that they experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but did not necessarily call it this. The early Methodists were a people who believed in and practiced great outward holiness as well.

When Parham experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in 1901, he simply added it on as a third experience. So, the official bylaws of the movement read this.

"It is recognized that the true church of Jesus Christ consists of all believers who believe in the saving grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as their personal Savior. It is recognized and agreed that no organization or man has been granted authority by the Lord to exclude from or accept anyone into the Kingdom of heaven, as this is done by Jesus Christ only. It is further recognized and agreed that we as Christians are to love all members of the Body of Christ (Christians), and this love and fellowship derives from the unity instilled by the Holy Spirit. Although differences in doctrinal beliefs and interpretation should not influence our love for one another, adherence to similar doctrinal beliefs and modes of worship have bonded together those of the Apostolic Faith Movement as founded by Charles F. Parham in the early 1900's. The scripture teaches us to adhere to the truth and proper doctrine. The common doctrinal beliefs are essentially as follows.

Triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Creation and Formation.

Man is basically sinful and in need of salvation.

Salvation by grace upon repentance toward God and acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's personal savior which is the conception of Spiritual Life.

Sanctification of the spirit, soul, and body as a second definite work of grace by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit; evidenced by the speaking in other languages.

Water Baptism......" and the document goes on.

Many of the old publications of the movement can be found at the movement's website under the archives.

The people I grew up around were definitely Pentecostal, and definitely taught holiness. I understand much of where Krautfra is coming from when she posts, as it is very similar to the teaching I grew up under, and follows naturally one of the two sides of the split in Pentecostalism that occurred in the latter days of the Azusa Street work.

The Apostolic Faith Movement generally makes a distinction between Justification by faith and Sanctification. In the first is the forgiveness of past sins. In the second is the work of regeneration by which a person is "born again" and enters a state in which the power of sin over the life of the believer is broken as the sin nature is now dealt with. They teach that the sanctified life is the place from which holiness is derived. They then teach the third experience, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with tongues as the Biblical first evidence.

The split came when a man named Durham began teaching a doctrine called the "finished work" doctrine that ran afoul of the traditional Apostolic Faith teaching. From Seymour and the people who continued to follow him come many of the Pentecostal Holiness type denominations and what we might call the "old time" pentecostals. From Durham came the Assemblies of God, Church of God, and similar works who did not hold to the three tiered experience.

Hope that history helps. There are still many Pentecostal movements that also hold to holiness teachings (even apart from the UPC which holds to a oneness view of God, but still practices a very strict outward holiness of dress and lifestyle). Holiness accompanying Pentecost is still taught in the Bible College in Baxter Springs. The Superintendent of the school and his wife are very precious people in the Lord. By the way, Parham ministered in Houston, TX and the UPC under Gossman traced their foundations back to Parham's work, even though Parham was decidedly Trinitarian while they became decidedly oneness. I think it is funny that they claim that Parham taught a oneness doctrine, as that was never the case at all.

On a personal note, I think many misunderstand the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and if you don't know what a tool is to be used for, you will inevitably use that tool incorrectly.

The gifts of the Spirit, tongues included, are not the purpose of the Baptism. They are the manifestations of the Spirit. They are what the Holy Spirit does outwardly through us to minister to others. But that is not the purpose of our being Baptized in the Holy Spirit, but rather the result of our being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Nor is Holiness the purpose of the Baptism. It is the fruit borne by a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life. It too is the result of our being filled, not the purpose for which we were filled.

The purpose is that we might be filled with, infused with the Spirit of God so that we might operate in the power of God and fellowship with Him spirit to spirit. And you shall receive power to be witnessed, right? It is the power of God in and through us that causes us to be like Christ in this earth to the point of laying down our own lives so that others might gain life. The manifestations are simply a vehicle that God uses to accomplish this purpose, and holiness is the fruit that we bear as we become more and more like Christ as we find our life in His Spirit and not in ourselves.

Holiness is not a code of conduct or a standard of behavior. It is the fleshly manifestation of obedience to the Holy Spirit (understanding that the author of the Word of God leads us in total agreement with the Word of God and demands that we use the written word as the measure against which all subjective word and impression is gauged.) To attempt to be holy outside of the working of the Holy Spirit is to be attempting to please God by carnal ordinance and is the practice of legalism rather than the manifestation of grace. It is the grace of God that teaches us....

Hope that helps answer the initial question.

Quote by twayneb: I wanted to reply to your post earlier, but have been very busy and have not had a chance to do so.

Well thanks for delaying your post as it was certainly worth the wait. I can now look further into the life of this Charles Parham, Apostolic Faith Movement and there old publications of the movement. I will also contact the Bible College in Baxter Springs. (I have thought about attending bible school, but will have to find out if that’s God’s will)

Quote by twayneb: The people I grew up around were definitely Pentecostal, and definitely taught holiness. I understand much of where Krautfra is coming from when she posts, as it is very similar to the teaching I grew up under, and follows naturally one of the two sides of the split in Pentecostalism that occurred in the latter days of the Azusa Street work.

It sad really when you think about it, but I guess you got to go with your convictions. Now my next question to you will be if you have been taught holiness doctrine have you experienced the "second work” as they call it. Now let me say this so you don’t misunderstand me I don’t go to church, although I will pop into a occasional meeting here and there (I attended the sermonindex conference in Paisley, Scotland) so I don’t really hold fast to any doctrine, and I am more than willing to accept things, but then on the other hand I am ultra-cautious because of deception in these days. I was filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues before going to the church and after leaving the church God opened up this second work teaching to me. But my heart is changing in this regard as I am tugged to start going back to church.

But it’s good and hearting to find that other men have trodden the path, I am treading. Krautfra please don’t think I am falling away from the faith if I speak in tongues or if I refuse to stop speaking in tongues. As the path to holiness is not hindered by tongues what hinders holiness is pride and the self-life, humility is the blossom of which death to self is the perfect fruit. Likewise for those who oppose or unsure about the second blessing holiness teaching I urge you to seek God on this matter, don’t just write it off as holiness will be one of the characteristics of God’s people in this next move of God, don’t miss it, but here is a key to see if it’s false, does the holiness they promote produce humility in them, if it doesn’t walk away, as humility is the blossom and beauty of holiness.

Quote by twayneb: The purpose is that we might be filled with, infused with the Spirit of God so that we might operate in the power of God and fellowship with Him spirit to spirit. And you shall receive power to be witnessed, right? It is the power of God in and through us that causes us to be like Christ in this earth to the point of laying down our own lives so that others might gain life.
Amen, to be like Christ in this earth, this again points us to humility.

Quote by twayneb: Holiness is not a code of conduct or a standard of behavior. It is the fleshly manifestation of obedience to the Holy Spirit (understanding that the author of the Word of God leads us in total agreement with the Word of God and demands that we use the written word as the measure against which all subjective word and impression is gauged.) To attempt to be holy outside of the working of the Holy Spirit is to be attempting to please God by carnal ordinance and is the practice of legalism rather than the manifestation of grace. It is the grace of God that teaches us....

Again Amen and Amen.. It is the grace of God that teaches us, God goodness (his grace) causes us to be humble.

Thanks Colin

Here is my dilemma on the day I would say I was saved I was also filled with the Sprit and spoke in tongues and then many years later and seeking of God I find out that sin and self remain within me which requires an additional work to set me free (sanctification)

I agree with your testimony. Baptism of Holy Spirit is to empower us to walk Holy. Gifts are just byproduct of this empowering. It is absolutely wrong to ignore the gifts or embrace them as the main product by ignoring the Holiness. Both the stands are wrong. Gifts are calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11).

Both Scripturally and practically, Sanctification is not a one time thing and entire sanctification is not possible unless we see Jesus face to face. Sanctification is the process of Holy Spirit enabling us to carry the cross. We need to carry the cross everyday, denying our flesh and obeying the Holy Spirit. Hence we need this empowering everyday. Also we need Holy Spirit to show us the sins that we commit unconsciously. The more we walk with the Spirit the more we come to know our sins and the more we purify ourself the more Holy we become (1 John 3).

I do not agree with those who teach that Baptism of Holy Spirit brings entire sanctification. No it does not. To believe this is unscriptural, all those who believe in this try to separate scriptures that does not suit their belief as not belonging to them. Who gave them this authority to specify whom the scripture is addressed for? Clear sign of unbelief and lack of respect for God's word.

Hi Brother

Combining both Pentecostal and Holiness teachings is still not the answer.

I was also rather drawn to the idea of a "second blessing" or "an additional work".

Mainly because of the desire to return to the level of my initial salvation experience. For the first few months of my new Life, I was dead to sin and alive to God to such a degree that it was glorious.

I could not remain in that state and have been searching for the way back, and think that to some degree I have found it.

I have listened to some sermons here on SI by Richard Owen Roberts, for instance -The Source, Appearance and Conduct of Saving Faith. One recurring theme I picked up from him is that it does not matter how you start, but how you finish.

I came to the conclusion that the only way one can finish strong, is to be established and grounded in Grace, and have a biblical grasp of relating to God according to the New Covenant. These two go hand in hand, and I am discovering how little I actually understand and enter into the New Covenant. Mainly because of my western mindset and bad doctrine that came with "Charismania"

Blessings

Joch

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Colin:

The doctrinal stance of the Apostolic Faith movement came from Parham's perception, which was influenced, as it is with all of us, by his history. I was taught a three tiered experience in which salvation, sanctification, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit were sequential stair steps as a believer climbed in his Christian experience.

When I began to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was frustrated for several years. I looked at my life, and saw so many shortcomings and failures. I would seek to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and would be confronted with the fact that I was not "sanctified" enough yet. As a result, I never saw myself as worthy of the Holy Spirit indwelling me and using me.

It was not until I came to understand that I did not need to be perfect in order to earn the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that I needed to Holy Spirit to enable me to live in victory that I was able to receive. And it was glorious, and it has been ever since. Not that I have been perfect or have not made some mistakes, but that I have been walking in fellowship with God through His Holy Spirit ever since.

I agree with something jochbapist said. The key is not in trying to marry Pentecostal and holiness teachings. Honestly, there are some aspects of Apostolic Faith doctrine for which I find little if any, and that very shaky, Biblical support. For example, I do not believe that sanctification is a one-time definite work of grace. However, I do believe that we often come to a point in our lives when we finally decide we are going to give ourselves to God 100%, holding nothing back. We often experience a great increase in the power of God in our lives and see a great change in our carnal lives. But I think this has more to do with our allowing God to lead us as He has been longing to do all along.

Sanctification simply means a separation from the world, the world's philosophies, the world's ways of thinking and doing, etc., and a separation unto God and His leadership and control. It is a decision, but at the same time it is a continual walk. It is initiated, but then it must grow. It does not mean that I am incapable of missing the mark. And, when I do sin, that does not mean that I am somehow "un-sanctified".

As you have received Christ, so walk ye in Him. We received Him by grace and the remainder of our walk will be powered by His grace. I cannot live a holy life without His grace empowering me, so to seek to be holy without a walk of empowerment by the gift of His grace is futile.

The Bible College is a good place. But you will find that no Bible College in the world, just as no church in the world, is a panacea. They have their problems just as any other place does. After all, it is people who lead, teach, and attend. However, it is free to attend, and the teaching is solid.

Quote by Sree: Both Scripturally and practically, Sanctification is not a onetime thing and entire sanctification is not possible unless we see Jesus face to face.

I agree sanctification begins at conversion, when the Spirit regenerates the heart of the believer.

Quote by Sree: I do not agree with those who teach that Baptism of Holy Spirit brings entire sanctification.

Would it help you if in the future I never mention the word ‘entire’ along with the word sanctification, would that help you to agree with me that we are sanctified by Holy Spirit?

Quote by krautfrau: I have met a brother recently who is involved in the convention in Ireland and we are going to try to meet up sometime to pray together and if any are interested in waiting on the Lord for Him to pour out his blessing again are welcome to get in touch with me.

Is it the Keswick convention? Currently I am in Nigeria for a month, then I will be in Spain for a month and tentatively in Trinidad for a month, after that I will be in the UK for a month that should be Feb 2014 if there is something going on then let me know and I try and get to it, will it be in Ireland or the North of England? Hopefully by the middle of next year I will be in the UK (Scotland) full time.

Quote by jochbaptist: I am discovering how little I actually understand and enter into the New Covenant.

I can say amen to that, thanks for your encouragement in your post.

Quote by twayneb: The doctrinal stance of the Apostolic Faith movement came from Parham's perception, which was influenced, as it is with all of us, by his history. I was taught a three tiered experience.

I wasn’t but that’s the way it seems to working out for me. Although I might have the last two back to front.

Quote by twayneb: I looked at my life, and saw so many shortcomings and failures.

I guess in a roundabout sort of way that’s what I have been doing trying to clean up my life. However in the last few months it’s being dawning on me that all I need is humility, I just need to humble myself before God.

Quote by twayneb: However, I do believe that we often come to a point in our lives when we finally decide we are going to give ourselves to God 100%, holding nothing back.

I know in my heart that’s where I am going, I just know it. So many questions, so many fears just what will he require of me? I guess that’s where the humility will help.

Quote by twayneb: I agree with something jochbapist said. The key is not in trying to marry Pentecostal and holiness teachings.

What I mean by that is simple it’s having a heart purified by faith (Holiness teaching) while operating in the gifts of the Spirit (Pentecostal teaching). That’s all I mean by that.

Quote by twayneb: The Bible College is a good place.

It something that I have thought of doing, but it’s not confirmed, it’s going to take me at the least to the middle of 2014 to get back to the UK permanently, never mind moving to the US for school but it’s something I am considering, maybe they might have a distance learning course.

Quote by krautfrau: Even the brother preaching in Ireland this year - brother Scott from the link I gave Colin, does not have the power even though he knows holiness doctrine and his preaching is powerful. No-one from what I can see was sanctified at the meetings.

I cant find the link?