comment and question
I don't do anything with the Rapture as far as waiting for a rapture or 'preach' to people about a rapture. I see it somewhat taking away from the Gospel a bit and maybe I am wrong. Yet, I have heard some say the bible doesn't teach anything about a rapture. What does anyone know about that?
I think the issue is not so much whether there is a rapture- the issue is whether there are two.
I personally believe there is one rapture at the 2nd return of Christ.
At one time I believed the rapture. Now I think I am more indifferent to whether the rapture will happen. I often think it detracts from the Gospel and Christians tend to use as a factor to hide until it comes.
What factors show the Rapture exists or will come?
btw, this is a no argument post.
more or less what do you think and what is your evidence that you know it is.
The strongest arguments for a rapture come from revelation:
1. that the "church" is not mentioned after Rev. chapter 3.
2. and in Rev 3:10, it says:
'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(Revelation 3:10 NASB)
I don't believe in a pre-tribuation rapture, personally. but I'm starting to think more and more that the miraculous will be available for the faithful.
Now you have to admire the man who can entitle a post on Sermon Index "Rapture" and think it will be a "no arguments" thread!
You see? There is faith out there!
And just to throw into the discussion, without any argument, a word on the Rapture. When Jesus told the story of the kingdom of God being likened to a man who found a pearl in the field, then buried it and went to buy the whole field, could it be that He then demonstrated this on the Mount of Transfiguration?
The pearl is the fullness of human glorification into the image of Christ, who is in the image of God, and that The Man who purchases the field is Jesus Himself. He has already handled that pearl, but put it back away from view. Now He is in the process of buying that field, knowing that the pearl will once again be displayed. The first time it was Jesus alone, the next time it will be all who belong to Him.
And that ladies and gentlemen, is the rapture. A glory being reserved for you in heaven ready to be revealed in the Final Day.
Remember- no arguing...!
DEADn wrote:
Yet, I have heard some say the bible doesn't teach anything about a rapture. What does anyone know about that?
Then again, it doesn't matter what I think! The most IMPORTANT thing about either word is that we need to realize that "the Bride hath made herself ready.” We MUST be ready when He returns or if we die a physical death on this earth; which if we die a physical death makes the word rapture and our arguments about it irrelevant! Correct?
Whichever (rapture, resurrection or death happens), plain and simple, we need to be ready; and I don’t see THAT focus being taught in the majority of churches today, imho.
God bless,
Lisa
The second comming of the Lord thats what we should be looking for. The Lord is preparing his Bride making her holy, righteous and washing her with his blood, cleansing her from sin, and sanctifying her, so she may be blameless and ready for the marriage of the Lamb. Too much have been said about rapture of the saints or the advent of the Lord and so little about heart holiness or that practical righteousness that are indispensable for christians who are invited at marriage supper. Yes salvation is all by grace and its God that works in us both to will and to do his good-pleasure and he gives us the power to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Those who do respond to the inner desire to be holy, and submit themselves entirely to Christ, crucifying the flesh, experience the second coming of Christ when He baptises in the Spirit, and know the Rapture. Any reading of past holiness writings will confirm this. To be raptured, is to know union with Christ.
The Lord came once and died for me and resurrected.
He came a second time and gave me life.
He has come to me in several visions and dreams so maybe I am up to the 10th coming, now. Yet, He comes to me everyday and indeed lives in me, so there is no end to His 'comings'.
I agree with Krautfrau that to be "raptured" is to be in "union with Christ".
It is important that men know they must receive Christ, NOW and walk in Him, NOW and be overcomers in this life.
He comes to me everyday and I look for His coming, everyday.
Am I looking at Jerusalem? No. Am I looking at any other geographical location on earth? No.
I tend to see alot of people going after the rapture and using it as a kind of spring board of pride to tell 'sinner's they they will send them post cards and such. I find it very foolish talk and wondered if they even realize what they are doing in this kind of talk. Hence I wondered what is the case against the rapture.
I don't care one way or another about the rapture because for me it takes away from the greater good.
I just want the meat of why the rapture is true and why the rapture might be false.
Too argue on it means you are too close to the subject and it is silly to really argue over it. Better off to argue over the salvation of ones soul.
John
The flesh and the spirit always view information differently, the flesh sees human solutions and physical realities. The spirit looks for the purposes of God and ways to over-ride the flesh- holding a completely different value system. The flesh longs for self gratification, the spirit longs for God's glory.
Rapture is just a word, but subject to analysis from both perspectives. Hence the flesh holds a high hope for a spectacular ride into the heavens and the mystical departure from the bonds of earth. But the spirit longs for the intimacy of the relationship, the joy of the presence of the beloved, and doesn't really care about the physical components so much, or the definitions of the active elements.
But we live in the body, and are both flesh and spirit. There will probably always be a discussion of the physical events and the spiritual changes.
And both will occur. This mortal will in the twinkling of an eye be changed to the immortal, and the groanings of the bondage to futility will be replaced with the joy of being complete in the full image of Christ.
The rapture will be a wonderful blending of so many things about which we have no prior experience.
Even so come Lord Jesus, we wait with eager anticipation of Your Goodness at a level beyond comprehension!
DEADn wrote:
I just want the meat of why the rapture is true and why the rapture might be false.
1. It’s anti-Semitic in nature. Years ago, when Christians explained to me the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church and yet claimed to love the Jews, they seemed to relish in the fact that the Jews would be the ones to suffer, not them.
2. After all the suffering for His namesake that’s gone on throughout the Bible, for God to allow this final "escape,” I believe He will have to apologize to every saint of God who went by the way of the sword.
3. I find another aspect this believe appalling, that all those who have died (& went to hell) and don’t have a second chance but yet there will be some who won’t make the first ‘rapture’ and yet they will get another chance for the 2nd and so on. Really??
God is not the God of the double-standard but this belief is riddled with double-standards all through it.
4. Rapture believers have to explain away too many scriptures that speak plainly about the second coming of Christ!
**4A. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 says to not believe those who say the day of the Lord has finally come and Paul then proceeds to explain exactly what must take place BEFORE the day of the Lord takes place.
**4B Jesus explains everything in chronological order in Matt 24 but yet in verse 21”and THEN shall be great tribulation” is explained away as well
So we see in 4 A & B that Scripture is not to be believed.
DEADn, these are just some that came off the top of head. (And for those who disagree, start another thread if you want to argue!! I’m not arguing with you, DEADn wanted reasons for or against. These are mine.)
God bless,
Lisa
EDITED for clarity's sake! @1:55PM EST
I recall the day I was raptured. In fact it lasted for three days, days where I was barely conscious of my surroundings, I was so taken up to the heavenly sphere.
It came after a time of intense trials but at last I surrendered entirely to the Lord, consenting to losing my life for His sake and forsaking all. In a flash I was transported to the heavens and such a profound awarenesss of His presence that I had never known before.
I barely slept for those three days where He poured out His love for me in an ocean of blessedness. He opened up the scriptures to give me understanding of what I had been going through and to read of others who had been raptured too and made pure.
In the end I had to ask for release as I did not think that my body could survive it for much longer and then read of others at a later date who had asked the same. I think it might have been Torrey.
I pray that my brothers and sisters who oppose entire sanctification would be blessed this way too and all arguments would cease and we would be as one.
Yes no arguing. If you want to go that way only post scripture that shows it isn't real.
All I really want to see is the pro's and con's on the rapture. Really don't need any commentary on it.
I agree with Lysa, so many opportunities Jesus had to lay out the logistics of the rapture... that He never took. There are just too many ways that Jesus would have to apologize and manipulate to pull it off the way it is commonly taught by its proponents.
My opinion, and take that for what it is worth, is that when Jesus instructed the disciples how to pray He told them to pray: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," He was instructing in a prophetic stream, declaring the desire of the Father. That desire is the restoration of perfection in the earth where His crown jewel of creation lives.
The ancient prophets spoke of that restoration prolificly in their contributions to scripture, and Paul's prophecy in Romans 8 about the whole creation coming out of the bondage to decay and into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God steers me to believe that rapture is first personal for me and my fellow believers- then spreading to the rest of creation.
But the nitty-gritty of the rapture is what happens to me when I am slammed with the fullness of Christ in that final transformation. I do not need to go anywhere like the sky, I am already as Jesus put it-
"Where I am, ye shall be also."
So it really is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Not in any way to diminish the experience of Krautfrau! What she describes is very much the same thing Paul experienced when he said he was caught up to the 3rd heaven, "whether in his body or out he did not know." But as wonderful as that is, it is not the final and permanent transformation. Perhaps it could be described as a First Fruits sampling of the glory to follow, an unforgettable treasure to store up in one's heart as we wait for "the day." And proof for the one who has such an experience that rapture is real.
And a quick scan of the news these days indicates we won't have to wait too long before all of this comes together!
In my opinion...
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