Strange Fire Pastor Response - Viral Video on Youtube

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

Saints,

This video now almost has 20,000 views and has really been seen by many. When someone searches for "strange fire" it will appear as 4th or in the first page of results. There are very few video responses to the conference asking for any common ground or balance from a cessationist viewpoint. We agree with MacArthur that we are against the great many sects that promote prosperity and false gospels.

Here is the video response by Shane Idleman

A Pastor's Thoughts from John McArthur's Strange Fire Conference by Shane Idleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iovoQ1Xh4NY

And her is his follow up message:

Another Response to John McArthur's Strange Fire Conference by Shane Idleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey24xXyA1jA

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

Listened to both messages. This brother is very balanced. Both messages worth listening to.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

It is as pointless to plead against 'charismatic chaos' as the speaker puts it, as it is to plead against the excess in reformed circles. The balance is not to be found here as both sides are out on a limb.

The balance is to be found in holiness teaching and the speaker did not say anything about holiness. It is not just an 'add on' for either sides to consider. Their whole theology needs a reform and the answer is to be found in 1 Cor 13.

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Perfect - helios means one thing in scripture and it is the subject of the whole of the books added together. Perfect is not the canon nor the end of all things. It is the state of perfection in this life. Paul shows us that it is for this life using the analogy of a child/man. Putting away childish things is meant to explain the partial becoming complete. Or looking through a darkened mirror to seeing properly.

So what he is saying is that, when the perfect state comes, the incomplete practise of the gift of knowledge and prophecy shall become fully operational as we will then be united in that perfection to the Saviour. Tongues cease anyway and are given a Greek verb that means this gift ceases in itself.

This is because they were for a sign for those who did not believe 1 Cor 14:22 that is to say the Jews at that time not for non Christians who happen to wander into a Christian service on a Sunday, pretty unlikely at that time and now. The sign was given at Pentecost but did continue for a time and Paul did not ban it but let it cease on its own but he did try to bring order to the crazy Corinthians who went overboard with the gift.

When Paul is speaking about looking through a mirror darkly, he is talking about the state before 2 Cor 3:18 where he says we behold the glory of God face to face and changed into His image which is the state of perfection, in this life or also known as entire sanctification.

So we see that neither camp is looking for the full restoration of man found in the true revivals of this doctrine.

What is good about this dispute over strange fire, is that I feel that it is a last ditch attempt to separate believers into opposite unbalanced camps by Satan, due to the coming revival of the true balanced theology of holiness teaching and therefore the revival we have been looking for.

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

Sister did you listen to the messages? The brother is talking about the two extremes between the Calvinist cessionust and the charismatic craziness. He is pleading for a middle road realizing their is truth in both camps.

I say to you gently sister you are using this thread as a platform to promote ES. That is not the topic here.

Bearmaster.

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

bear I thought it was obvious I had listened to it.

A

ADisciple Nov 30, 2013

Isn't 1 Corinthians Ch. 13 clear? When Paul says, "when that which is perfect is come," he is talking about love. It's when we come into love--the love of Christ that passeth (surpasseth) knowledge-- that these other things which are "in part" are done away.

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

I think that sticking to the words that scripture uses is our safest bet. If Paul had meant love then why would he not say so. He used the word perfect which he used in other places. But actually baptism of the Spirit is love spread abroad in our hearts along with other things.

A

ADisciple Nov 30, 2013

"I think that sticking to the words that scripture uses is our safest bet."

That's exactly what I was doing. 1 Corinthians 13-- the love chapter. "Yet I shew unto you a more excellent way."

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

I had not seen it in that way before so thanks, it confirms what Paul was saying regarding encouraging the Corinthians to go on to His rest.

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

But the text under discussion cannot be used to establish that spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophesy have ceased.

If I were a cessionist, which I am not, I would be hard pressed to use 1 Cor.13:8-9 to establish the ceasing of sign gifts.

Bearmaster.

A

ADisciple Nov 30, 2013

"If I were a cessionist, which I am not, I would be hard pressed to use 1 Cor.13:8-9 to establish the ceasing of sign gifts."

Neither am I, and neither would I.

The gifts and ministries of the Spirit are God's provision to help us in our pursuit of love. "Follow after (pursue) love, and desire spiritual gifts..."

But once we come into love, the gifts and ministries are no longer needed.

Brenda, you are right that 1 Corinthians 13 encourages us to "go on to the rest." Which is, love. Meanwhile we are urged to "follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts..."

Once we come into love, then, the gifts are no longer needed. "Love never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (ie, be unemployed); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (be done away because no longer needed)."

So those who insist the gifts have ceased, well, I suggest an honest read of 1 Corinthians 13, and other passages of Scripture which speak of God's end for us-- love. Are we there yet? :)

L

Lysa Nov 30, 2013

ADisciple wrote:
But once we come into love, the gifts and ministries are no longer needed.
Once we come into love, then, the gifts are no longer needed.

Are you saying that since no one operates in love or perfect love, this is why we still need the gifts in operation? And if and when we do, the gifts will cease? If so, that’s a whole new take that I've never heard before!!

I’m not saying that I am 100% correct but I believe that it’s no mistake that chapter 13, "the chapter love” is sandwiched in between the both chapters on spiritual gifts. In order to properly use the gifts, WE NEED TO OPERATE IN LOVE because without it all this crazy stuff that has brought on the Strange Fire conference is exactly what we get.

That’s just my humble take on it and I know not many may agree and that’s ok!! We’re all striving to hear the same sentence, "enter in thou good and faithful servant!”

God bless,
Lisa

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

Brother, respectfully, 1 Cor. 13:8-13 is teaching that the perfect will occur when Christ returns. When Jesus returns and the church is in her perfect state then tongues, prophesy, and knowledge will pass away as well as the rest if the spiritual gifts for we will behold the perfect Christ. Even faith and hope that Paul mentions in 1 Cor. 13:13.will pass away as faith and hope are realized in Jesus. His love will remain as His visible wounds will be constant reminders of our redemption.

In 1 Cor.1:7 Paul tells the Corithians that they are not lacking in any gift as they are awaiting eagerly the revelation if Jesus Christ. Tbis presupposes that all if the spiritual gifts will be around until Jesus returns.

On Eph. 4:7-16 Paul writes that the gifts of apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist will be in operation until the church attains the unity of the faith and grows in its knowkedge of the Son of God. Certainly something that will not happen until Christ returns.

Conclusion. All if the gifts if the Holy Spirit will be in operation until the return if Jesus.

Bearmaster.

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

Dear sister I am one of the few who do AGREE with you.

Bear.

A

ADisciple Nov 30, 2013

Lysa said, "Are you saying that since no one operates in love or perfect love, this is why we still need the gifts in operation? And if and when we do, the gifts will cease?"

Yes, this is how I read 1 Cor. 13. Paul urges the desire for, and orderly use of, the gifts, showing that when we come into love, these are no longer necessary.

If this seems wrong it can only be because we don't comprehend love yet. For example, why would a person want to continue using a flashlight when the sun has come up? The Son of God did not operate in the realm of the gifts of the Spirit. He operated in the realm of love.

But this does not mean that while the gifts are still in operation it is because there is no love. Hopefully we are pursuing love all along the way, as Paul urged us to. You are right in saying that it is the absence of this that accounts for so much of the foolishness we've seen in the Charismatic realm.

I am not sure we really understand the implications of the fruit of the Spirit, which is "love..." I think when the love of Christ is more fully formed in the "branches," we are going to see far more powerful healings and deliverances and works of power than were ever accomplished by the gifts of the Spirit.

A

ADisciple Nov 30, 2013

Bear said, "Brother, respectfully, 1 Cor. 13:8-13 is teaching that the perfect will occur when Christ returns. When Jesus returns and the church is in her perfect state..."

Bear, when I prayerfully read the passage starting at 1 Cor. 12.31 to 1 Cor. 14.1, it's difficult for me to see that he is talking of anything but Love when he says, "when that which is perfect is come."

I think we tend to relegate way too much to "when Jesus returns."

The apostles-- Paul, Peter, John-- teach that the church is to come into perfect love before Jesus returns. In addition to the above passage I mentioned, please read Eph. 3:14-21, 2 Pt. 1:5-11, and 1 Jn. 4:17,18).

R

rnieman Nov 30, 2013

Here is a another review of the book from Craig Keener at Asbury Seminary.

http://pneumareview.com/john-macarthurs-strange-fire-reviewed-by-craig-s-keener/

sermonindex Nov 30, 2013

Brother if you are going to reason that tongues, prophesy, and knowledge will be done away with when perfect move is realized thus side of glory. Then yiu will have to throw out 1 Cor. 1:7 and Eph.4:7-16. These verses imply that spiritual gifts will be around when Christ returns.

Also the question arises why the directives given in 1 Cor. 14 over the use of tongues and prophesy. To follow your reasoning one would suppose that the Corithians or anyone else had not been perfected in love.

Also in 1 Cor 14:1, Paul tells the Corithians to pursue love, but to desire earnestly spiritual gifts. Especially the gift of prophesy. Also in 1 Cor.14:39 Paul says desire earnestly to prophesy but do not forbid anyone to speak in tongues.

Brother something else comes to mind. Was Paul perfected in love. Because he says in 1 Cor.14:18 he says I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all.

But trying to be argumentative bro. But showing your position on perfect love begs some questions. Will look over the verses you posted. Must stand down now

Bear:)

A

ADisciple Nov 30, 2013

Bear said, "Will look over the verses you posted."

Yes, have a look at those passages. Like yourself, I have no interest in being argumentative. Let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

By the way, there's an interesting little word in one of the passages you referred to-- Eph. 4:7-16. Paul says God has given gifts of men-- apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers--"TILL... we all come... unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..."

Meaning that when the body of Christ comes to full maturity (which is nothing less than the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ) these ministries are no longer necessary.

Edit: That would be better said like this: Meaning that when the ministries have equipped the body of Christ to edify itself in love, it is a process that results in a perfect (fully mature, full-grown) Man, and the ministries are no longer necessary.

A

AbideinHim Dec 1, 2013

The brother's teachings were balanced,
and he brought forth the teaching with the
right spirit, desiring to see unity between
Charismatics and non charismatics.

Although John MacArthur does seem to
recognize strange fire to a certain extent,
with all of his bible knowledge, he lacks
discernment in knowing what the true fire
of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees prided
themselves on their knowledge of the law
yet accused Jesus of doing the miraculous
works that he did by the power of satan.
Much of the Cessationist teaching has led
It's followers to come to the same conclusion.

Mike