Making homosexuality personal

Homosexuality has come out with a vengeance in our society and those who push it say homosexuals are born that way while those who are against homosexuality say it is unnatural, against nature and against who God is.

Some Christians have homosexual kids and as a result support them in their ways and push for tolerance. It becomes very personal and therefore what parent doesn't fight for their kid? How hard is it for a parent to divide their love for their kid for the love of God and the justice of God in regards to homosexuality?

Growing up I knew a few guy who were effeminate. Always joked that they were gay as a result and in reality they are gay and probably were back then. So, how can some Christians be flippant about homosexuality and simply say 'repent' when it isn't so easy to be changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality?

If a specific guy I knew when I was younger seemed to be gay and later in life he 'came out' it was not unexpected and yet why is that? Because his mannerisms told us he was probably gay anyway. How does that happen and how is that supposed to be dealt with in regards to God?

I have an uncle who is gay. He was engaged to be married at one time when I was very young. His fiancee happened to come home and find him making out with another male. She left and was never seen again. Since then he has continued on that journey but I do not know if he is sexuality active because I have never heard of him talking about any boyfriends or mentioned any men to anyone in the family. Yet, he behaves as a homosexual.

Homosexuality disgusts me to the core of my being. I find it revolting when seeing homosexuals get even remotely intimate and yet some of them have seemed to be that way when they were in elementary but didn't really know it. How does a Christian really deal with it?

John

Hi DEADn,

You bring up a very important point in the whole homosexuality argument that is raging on today. I personally believe that the devil has done a quite a successful job distracting people from the main issue, more specifically, what I am trying to get at is this issue of if homosexuality is primarily nature vs nurture. I believe that it can be nature, nurture, or both, and that it varies from person to person. There are quite conclusive animal studies also which have been done that indicate that genetics can play a big role. BUT, this as many Christians fail to realize is NOT the point we should be arguing, because the fact of the matter is that we are ALL sinners from birth. For example, no one had to teach me to lie and steal things, this is just my sinful nature I am born with. Also, a sexual impulse can be found in almost every human being which is something that is literally hard-wired into us, but that doesn't make it alright for me to sleep around with as many people as I can find. For the person who one would consider to be born with homosexual tendencies, need to like the rest of humanity, deny the sinful desires aroused by their fallen nature, repent and turn to Christ and pick up their individual crosses and follow Him. The problem is not the fact that someone struggles with homosexuality or any other sin for that matter (struggle being the key word here), but the problem is when they try to justify it and claim that it is not a sin which is an outright heretical lie and will lead a person to hell. The bible is clear that homosexuality is detestable in the eyes of God, just as much as murder and adultery...sin is sin no matter how one tries to make it look "presentable"...God will not be mocked...sin must be called out as it is so that people can come to repentance through the preaching of the gospel and receive forgiveness and acceptance into God's family, there is no other way. And again, Jesus was absolutely clear in Matthew 7 that many will come to Him and emphatically say "Lord, Lord" and He will tell them plainly "away from me you workers of iniquity (workers of lawlessness who lived as if I never gave you a law to live by) I NEVER knew you."

To answer your question of how a Christian is supposed to deal with the homosexuality that is so pervasive around us, the only answer is love...that in our rebuke or correction, it is well seasoned with much GENUINE love and care for the person we are trying to instruct, whether it be a drug addict, a homosexual, a person addicted to porn...we show them the love of Christ and pray earnestly for them and speak truth to them and leave it in the Lord's hands to soften their hearts and bring them around. Pity, mercy, grace with a humble, kind, gentle, and patient spirit is what we are called to demonstrate to the world, not picketing in front of a gay parade saying that God hates them, because at the end of the day, we were at one time just like them, apart from the love of God because of our sins, but He loved us and that while we were yet SINNERS (enemies to God), Christ DIED FOR US! We preach sin, righteousness, and judgment and the gospel of Christ so that people can be reconciled as we were.

So, how can some Christians be flippant about homosexuality and simply say 'repent' when it isn't so easy to be changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality?

It is absolutely wrong to believe that a person can be born gay and then asking him to repent. We should never let science deceive us. No one is born homosexual. Homosexuality is different from race or ethnicity. Men who behave like women and get attracted to other men have a bad childhood. They might be raised by single mother or received very little attention from Father due to divorce in family or step father thing. Hence the Gender that is well known to them from Childhood is female (Mother) and not male. All of us have sexual attraction towards the gender we know the least about. Hence such men get attracted towards other men who are least known to them. Sexual abuse in young age also causes such abnormalities. But most of the Homosexuals are actually people who wanted to try something different and ended up liking it.

I believe that it can be nature, nurture, or both, and that it varies from person to person. There are quite conclusive animal studies also which have been done that indicate that genetics can play a big role. BUT, this as many Christians fail to realize is NOT the point we should be arguing, because the fact of the matter is that we are ALL sinners from birth. For example, no one had to teach me to lie and steal things, this is just my sinful nature I am born with. Also, a sexual impulse can be found in almost every human being which is something that is literally hard-wired into us, but that doesn't make it alright for me to sleep around with as many people as I can find. For the person who one would consider to be born with homosexual tendencies, need to like the rest of humanity, deny the sinful desires aroused by their fallen nature, repent and turn to Christ and pick up their individual crosses and follow Him.

So you agree with science that Homosexuality is genetic? But you want believers to rebuke them and make them carry the cross, there by asking them to be attracted to women which is not a natural thing for them? Or you want them to remain single?

I am just trying to understand your point, I always believed Homosexuality is a situational thing due to wrong upbringing of Child. It cannot be genetics no matter how Science tries to prove. I have placed my arguments in my previous post.

I agree with you about fallen human nature like lies etc. But Homosexuality is different from lies, one can take the cross and speak the truth, but one cannot take the cross and act like he is sexually interested in a women when he is not.

I don't agree that someone is born gay BUT there is something to say when a boy grows up and becomes very effeminate and that eventually leads to homosexuality. What is the root we are looking at in this. This is something I am trying to understand because when something like that seems to start young it isn't easy just to turn away from it.

From what I have seen, studies that suggest homosexuality to be of a genetic origin are written by homosexual scientists. They hedge their bets on an elusive homosexual gene, grasping for that ultimate golden goal where the perversion can be labeled "normal." I have studied enough anatomy and physiology to know that men and women are carefully designed to be sex partners only and exactly according to the way God set it up- one man, one woman, monogamous for life. Not the appropriate place to go into detail- but the science is there.

The drive in people for sexual fulfillment has always caused human minds to wander off in a myriad of fantasies. Satan has latched onto this convenient handle to steer millions into a futile pursuit resulting in his deadly victories. He has also left a lot of people in confusion and despair through some sexual trick, often because the damage can be so permanent. Deeds done cannot be undone. We all probably have our own tales of grief/ testimonies here.

Satan seizes upon that most basic human need to be loved by someone else and makes sure that person is not God. He is able to confuse love, sex, and intimacy- turning them against each other and of course the Father. Love and lust are the same in Satan's handbook.

The law of God is sexual restraint. God is quick to acknowledge that the sex drive is strong, and restraint is difficult. But when we work this out successfully, there is a good chance we will be happily married and have a walk with God that knows no shame. For many, it will be much harder to get to a place like that. In any event, letting oneself follow an undisciplined, unrestrained sexual lifestyle will result in unhappy circumstances- whether it be hetero or homosex.

It never was about genetics, just shame and guilt. All Satan wants is a lock on his victims so that they will never turn to God for salvation.

I wish I knew the answer. I toss with the same questions.
I don't think a person is "born" gay, but as to when that swtich in thebrain takes place, I don't know. I have heard arguments contributing upbringing and traumatic experiences as well as the argument that a gene may be detected to show a person is predisposed to homosexuality.
In my mind I make a comparison- Even IF they were to "find a gene" it does not give a person the okay to go with their feelings if it is contrary to God's will for us anymore that it would be okay for one who is said to be born with the "alcoholic gene," as in the case of American Indians, to just go ahead and throw resistance to the wind and drink simply because "they were born that way."

Everyone here has added important points to consider.

tbsounde2- well said."how a Christian is supposed to deal with the homosexuality that is so pervasive around us, the only answer is love...that in our rebuke or correction, it is well seasoned with much GENUINE love and care for the person we are trying to instruct, whether it be a drug addict, a homosexual, a person addicted to porn...we show them the love of Christ and pray earnestly for them and speak truth to them and leave it in the Lord's hands to soften their hearts and bring them around. Pity, mercy, grace with a humble, kind, gentle, and patient spirit is what we are called to demonstrate to the world, not picketing in front of a gay parade saying that God hates them, because at the end of the day, we were at one time just like them, apart from the love of God because of our sins, but He loved us and that while we were yet SINNERS (enemies to God), Christ DIED FOR US! We preach sin, righteousness, and judgment and the gospel of Christ so that people can be reconciled as we were."
I agree wholeheartedly.

Hi Sree,

I will try to make my reply easier by breaking up your comment into segments and addressing each separately:

"So you agree with science that Homosexuality is genetic?"

Science is an important tool that God has given us to better understand Him and all that He has made. And although I don't agree with every conclusion made by different scientists, science itself is not contradictory to faith but rather strengthens and upholds it. It is our godless culture that has created a false dichotomy between faith and science which has unfortunately been working toward their favor, especially as many Christians have fallen victim to said lie and try to run the complete opposite direction, practically shunning knowledge. This is one of the many reasons why we as Christians are labelled as "ignorant" today. They have set the bait and we have taken it in the sense that they try to argue about genetic predisposition as a means to legitimatize homosexuality and we get hung up on that instead of getting to the root, by making them understand that genetic predisposition doesn't matter because we are all predisposed to SIN and are called to turn from our carnal (natural) self toward Christ and live.

And as I mentioned, I believe that homosexuality can be a result of nature, nurture, or both in a variable degree from person to person, so to answer your question, I agree with science that people can have a genetic disposition to make them more likely to be led to a homosexual lifestyle than another person but I do not agree that this sets a precedence to say that homosexuality is acceptable which is a false conclusion made from the studies.

"But you want believers to rebuke them and make them carry the cross, there by asking them to be attracted to women which is not a natural thing for them? Or you want them to remain single?"

To answer this question, I will start with a question: if you know of a brother or sister who is struggling (the key word here) with alcohol, will you continually rebuke them every time they fall and just leave it at that or will you try to bear with them their burden and demonstrate patience and kindness and show in a clear way that you actually care about them as a person and want them desperately to be set free from their bondage and remind them of the grace we have through the gospel of Jesus Christ? I don't know about you, but I struggle with a lot of things myself, and there have been times when people around me showed me such grace and spoke truth (the gospel) into my life which has helped me to overcome different sins. Remember, at the end of the day, homosexuality is a sin just like the sins you and I commit on a daily basis. Also, it is scientifically proven that babies can be born with addiction to different substances if their mother happened to use those substances during pregnancy, which can also manifest itself later on in life after a period of dormancy. I will address the last part of your question of this section at the end of my reply.

"I am just trying to understand your point, I always believed Homosexuality is a situational thing due to wrong upbringing of Child. It cannot be genetics no matter how Science tries to prove. I have placed my arguments in my previous post."

How can you be so certain that homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it? Do you have biblical evidence to support this claim? We actually see a greater precedence for a genetic basis of sin in general from the fall of man and the idea of sin dwelling in our flesh. As far as I know, ever single human being is predisposed to sin and sinfulness is not something that is taught, it is just something that we are. Even King David says "I was sinful from birth." But an important point to make here is that we are not born committing every single sin there is known to man or will every single person commit every single sin there is to commit in their lifetime. Where am I going with this statement? To point out that every person struggles with different sins, even from their childhood, some being more prone to anger and rebellion to their parents than others, some more prone to steal and hurt other kids, while some are more mild and gentle. To me, it doesn't take much of a logical jump from here to say that some kids can also be more prone to homosexuality than others based on the reasoning stated above.

"I agree with you about fallen human nature like lies etc. But Homosexuality is different from lies, one can take the cross and speak the truth, but one cannot take the cross and act like he is sexually interested in a women when he is not."

Once again, I am not sure how you are coming to make such a strong distinction between homosexuality and all other sins. Are not all sins lies at the core?

Let me use an example utilizing the logic that you presented here (or at least what I understand from what you have written above, which wasn't all to clear to me): A boy struggles with lust and is "inflamed with passion" for girls, not just one, but almost every pretty girls he sees, it is his nature to do so. Now, is he unsaved because he has these super strong desires that he struggles with, as in he knows the thoughts are not pleasing to the Lord and he also desires to be free from them? Or let me use another example: I heard that married men to varying degrees struggle with unfaithful thoughts and desires and even moments where they have a sexual image in their mind that is not of their wife and that this is something that they struggle with for a long time. Are these men not saved because they struggle with such thoughts?

God sometimes seems to quickly bring deliverance from certain sins while allowing us to struggle with others while another person might have the very opposite happen where what you struggle with was more easily overcome by the other person while they struggle with something you easily overcame. Just as I know that I will probably struggle with lust for a long time but have no temptation toward homosexuality, I don't find it hard to believe that another person might not have much difficulty in regard to lust but have a great deal of difficulty in regards to homosexuality.

So at the end of the day, the point is not about arguing with the secular world if people can be born a homosexual or not and appearing ignorant by so easily brushing off any sort of scientific data saying "I don't believe in science", but getting to the more relevant argument that we are ALL born sinners and that gossip and slander and lust and rebellion against parents is just as much a damnable sin as homosexuality. And since we are all sinners from birth, we must deny our sinful impulses aroused by the flesh, and submit to God through Christ, and live.

I don't agree that someone is born gay BUT there is something to say when a boy grows up and becomes very effeminate and that eventually leads to homosexuality. What is the root we are looking at in this. This is something I am trying to understand because when something like that seems to start young it isn't easy just to turn away from it.

So now that you agree that men are not born Gay, it should be environmental factors that make them Gay like single parenting or Child abuse. Something that affected them from Childhood. This is apart from those who willfully become gays, just to try something different and they constitute majority of Gay community. Regarding those who are effeminate from Childhood, the situation is same as those kids who are brought up by Terrorist parents, hatred is poured into their heart from Childhood. Now it is difficult for them to change as well, so do we ask them to continue in terrorism?

Apostle Paul writes to Titus about Cretans who are also naturally liars, evil beasts and lazy people. He is not telling Titus, that this is their nature so just adjust with them, instead he is asking Titus to reprove them harshly so that they will repent. I believe the same is applicable here as well.

Titus 1:12:-One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Thus when a Homosexual comes to Christ he is no longer bound by his natural character, he should be willing to hate and change that natural practices of his that came from Childhood for the sake of Eternal life. Else the Church has to reprove them harshly.

How can you be so certain that homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it?

I am not ignorant of science. I am an engineer and make my living using science and technology. So here is my argument on Homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it.

There are eunuchs who are born without proper sexual potential (Matt 19-12). But consider a man who was created by God with clear potential to have sexual relationship with a women. He has all physical capabilities to unite with a women and can produce children. Now to this man I do not believe God will put a gene in him that will prevent him to use this distinctive male organs of him (created to unite with a female) to be used to unite with a male. If so then it is clear waste of resource. It is clearly against creationists arguments of intelligent design where we say that every living thing is intelligently designed by a creator.

Also it is very harsh to explain a God who created man with sexual interest towards another man and then ask him not to unite with man because it is labeled as sin.

Science has not come up with a gene for Homosexuality, they are just studying the effect of genes for sexual orientation. Let them come up with a definite proof. As far as I know science stills says that combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation.

Once again, I am not sure how you are coming to make such a strong distinction between homosexuality and all other sins. Are not all sins lies at the core?

I think this is the fundamental difference between us. I believe we cannot see homosexuality as other sins IF WE AGREE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GENETIC. If it is due to social factors then we can compare Homosexuality with other sins. For example Lies, addiction to pornography etc are not genetic things. They just come to us naturally through the fallen Adamic nature. But it is not something that we are made to do. That is we are not made to watch Pornography, we are not made to lie, we are not made to lust. Infact we are all made with a conscience that prevents us from doing this, but along with this conscience we have a flesh that is always willing to go against this conscience. Now a Man's attraction to opposite sex is inbuilt into him that makes him produce children uniting with his wife. If we say Homosexuality is also inbuilt then we cannot ask someone to forsake this God given desire and unite with a women if needed. It is equal to asking a non Homosexual male to sleep with a man, which is disgusting to him.

I agree with your explanation for gradual deliverance of certain sins and miraculous deliverance of some. I have experienced both and know people who had both as well. Some here in SI will not agree with us. I believe we are Biblical.

I am reading everyone's input very careful and slowly because you have all written ALOT.

Through it I couldn't help but think of high profile Christians who have 'fallen' into homosexuality and saying they were always that way. One shocker for me was Ray Boltz and seeing how much he has changed.

Usually, when a Christian 'falls' away it is because of some doctrinal issue or maybe some adultery that ended when exposed. In Ray Boltz case it doesn't seem to be that way and he went the way that he truly was inside and yet he still sings Christian songs. Does he become a heretic because of the homosexuality despite Christianity?

Beyond this I tend to see, seemingly spiritually, that there is an very intricate web of lies being spun here in the heavenlies around homosexuality. There is a personal which, as it grows, becomes more vocal and turns more political all the way in the hidden something is going on that is very deceptive.

I see something but I can't quite connect all the dots to show what is truly going on with the homosexual move in the world today.

John

Hi Sree,

Once again I will try to break down your reply into segments to make things easier:

"I am not ignorant of science. I am an engineer and make my living using science and technology. So here is my argument on Homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it."

That is wonderful and I am sure that you are using such a blessing and gift to advance the kingdom of God! We definitely have a great need for faithful believers in science and academics to bring the light of Christ to the so called "intellectuals."! I am also in the field of science myself, just got my PhD in Cellular & Molecular Pathology from UCLA 3 months ago :)

"There are eunuchs who are born without proper sexual potential (Matt 19-12). But consider a man who was created by God with clear potential to have sexual relationship with a women. He has all physical capabilities to unite with a women and can produce children. Now to this man I do not believe God will put a gene in him that will prevent him to use this distinctive male organs of him (created to unite with a female) to be used to unite with a male. If so then it is clear waste of resource. It is clearly against creationists arguments of intelligent design where we say that every living thing is intelligently designed by a creator."

I feel a bit of clarification will help with this one. Scientists are not trying to look for a homosexual gene per se, but try to identify genetic factors that can contribute to homosexuality. They are not trying to look for some gene that homosexuals have that heterosexuals do not, as it would be more of a pleotropic effect, in that multiple genes would most likely be involved. These multiple genes would be present in all human beings, but somewhat mutated or altered in function compared to other people. So why do I bring this up? Because the idea that you presented of "God putting a homosexual gene into a person" is an irrelevant point if the effect (homosexuality) was caused by normal genes we all have being effected and altered in their function by mutations or epigenetic changes (a very interesting topic of research that you might want to look into - kind of explains Exodus when God says that He will visit the sins of the fathers to the 3rd and 4th generations - I can also explain more on the forum if people are interested). Now, as it is absolutely clear that a myriad of genetic and epigenetic aberrations are known to cause all sorts of malformations and disease (clearly due to the fact that we are living in a fallen world), it is not much of a logical jump to say that homosexuality or rather a stronger tendency towards is can be attributed in like fashion to different genetic and epigenetic aberrations.

"Also it is very harsh to explain a God who created man with sexual interest towards another man and then ask him not to unite with man because it is labeled as sin."

Coming back to my argument from my previous reply; we are all born sinners (something that God did not intend or want but a clear and present reality), is it wrong for me to tell people that they shouldn't sin?

Also, what about people who are born as hermaphrodites; born with both male and female sex organs? How do you explain that? Clearly this individual is born with an ambiguous gender and this gender ambiguity clearly due to GENETIC and EPIGENETIC aberrations.

"Science has not come up with a gene for Homosexuality, they are just studying the effect of genes for sexual orientation. Let them come up with a definite proof. As far as I know science stills says that combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation."

Once again, it is the media that oversimplifies things. Scientists are not looking for some "new gene" that normal people don't have but are looking for genes that we all have which are not working properly that contributes to homosexuality it certain but not individuals.

"I think this is the fundamental difference between us. I believe we cannot see homosexuality as other sins IF WE AGREE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GENETIC. If it is due to social factors then we can compare Homosexuality with other sins. For example Lies, addiction to pornography etc are not genetic things. They just come to us naturally through the fallen Adamic nature. But it is not something that we are made to do."

The fallen Adamic nature encompasses all of our being: the flesh, the soul, the spirit. Sin and death (or dying) is not only a matter of the mind, but a matter of the spirit, as well as the flesh (our physical body made up of trillions of cells that each have thousands of genes). Kids don't lie because they are taught, they do it because they are fallen, sinful people from birth with a corrupted body, soul, and spirit.

As I mentioned before, it has been shown that mothers who use drugs and alcohol can pass the addiction onto their unborn fetus (epigenetics). In this same logic, it is very reasonable to think that this is also possible with homosexuality, not that if the mother is homosexual that it will be passed on but that things can happen physiologically to the mother whether through life decisions, health, etc. that can alter the hormones, etc. of the fetus in such a way that predisposes them to homosexuality.

I am a male, therefore I have testosterone raging through my body. Testosterone is the primary hormone that makes me a male and is a big factor that contributes to my desire for women. God intended this to be something good, but it is my fallen nature that turns this good thing into sin through lust, etc. Although I am not born lusting per se, I am predisposed to lust because I am a healthy, testosterone pumping male.

Where I am on this to date is as follows.

I do think that it’s likely that certain people have a propensity toward homosexuality from birth, but I don’t accept that it is God who has made them so.

The homosexuals I know love children. It would have to be””excuse me for saying this””a malicious God who puts in people a love for children and at the same time deprives them of the desire for the only kind of relationship that can bring forth children.

So it is not God who has made them that way. Nevertheless, it seems to me that many homosexuals likely have a propensity from birth that leaves them open to this temptation.

(By the way, Sree, you need to rethink your statement that homosexuality is the result of a bad upbringing. I know homosexuals who have been brought up in loving homes.)

So””as I said, this is how I see things in the present measure of light that I have””there are two contributing factors to the massive tide of homosexuality that has engulfed our world.

1.\t God did not make them that way; it is sin in the individual human heart. But it is compounded by this:
2.\tOn a very large scale in our day, men (I mean men and women) are "worshipping and serving the creature more than the Creator,” and ultimately saying, "We want nothing to do with God; get Him out of our very thoughts” (Rom. 1:24-28). And so as a result (and it is frightening) God has lifted restraint in our day and, in a very massive way, given men over to this. And because of the general weakness of "the church” (I am generalizing) and its inability to resist this onslaught, the tsunami has engulfed even many of the homes of the righteous.

I notice, by the way, that in the two places in the Old Testament where homosexuality was rampant, it was because of the apostate state of things, and the weak testimony of the righteous. One was in Sodom where Lot’s testimony was very weak, and the other in the days of the Judges””a passage of Scripture that is too horrific even to read. It is sandwiched between two statements that "in those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.” The same in our day. The churches are weak; apostasy is rampant.

So, what is the answer? A strong Testimony that puts a stop to apostasy. This is the answer, as Paul shows us in 1 Corinthians Ch. 6. He gives a list (it is not comprehensive) of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Homosexuals are on the list. Then he says this:

"And such WERE some of you. But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6.11).

So, God has the answer! He has the provision to justify and cleanse. "The Name of the Lord Jesus, and the Spirit of our God.” I am convinced that it is the general lack of this in the churches that, if not the cause, is the problem that leaves us deprived of the solution. God has the The Answer to this immense flood of darkness... and I believe He has it for us...if we will get seeking! I know it’s grown to huge proportion. But God is far, far greater, and has The Answer””not only the Name of the Lord Jesus, but (underline this) the power of the Spirit of our God. Oh, how deeply we need to see this in our day! The cleansing power of the Spirit. We (I know I am generalizing again) have fallen so far from this. Never mind the homosexuals. It is WE who need to turn to the Lord! Oh to see the broken and the contrite heart in the churches, and a great cry to give the Spirit of the Lord His lordship in our midst! Oh to see a different kind of tsunami in our world! "O now I see the cleansing wave, the Fountain deep and wide; Jesus my Lord, might to save, points to His wounded side...”

By the way, Sree, you need to rethink your statement that homosexuality is the result of a bad upbringing. I know homosexuals who have been brought up in loving homes.

I am not saying single parenting is the only reason, but it is a major reason. There are Homosexuals who came from a loving family where both parents are loving. But here the external influence of other homosexuals or Child abuse at very young age, can cause it.

Your argument is confusing because you are saying God did not make them that way but they are born that way. God is the one who created us all and planned us even before the creation of earth, so if Homosexuals were Born different then it cannot be outside God's plan.

tbsound2,

These multiple genes would be present in all human beings, but somewhat mutated or altered in function compared to other people. So why do I bring this up? Because the idea that you presented of "God putting a homosexual gene into a person" is an irrelevant point if the effect (homosexuality) was caused by normal genes we all have being effected and altered in their function by mutations or epigenetic changes

Whether it is presence of gene or mutation of gene, it cannot happen without God's plan. In either case since is telling us that God created men as homosexual.

The fallen Adamic nature encompasses all of our being: the flesh, the soul, the spirit. Sin and death (or dying) is not only a matter of the mind, but a matter of the spirit, as well as the flesh (our physical body made up of trillions of cells that each have thousands of genes). Kids don't lie because they are taught, they do it because they are fallen, sinful people from birth with a corrupted body, soul, and spirit.

The reason you do not agree with my point - "I believe we cannot see homosexuality as other sins IF WE AGREE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GENETIC" - is because you and I do not have the common definition of Flesh.

Flesh does not mean Human body, flesh referred in Bible does not literally mean human flesh. What Bible Calls Flesh is a nature of man to rebel God's command. It is not something that is coded inside man Physically, but something spiritually. Like conscience is +ive and Flesh is its negative equivalent. You cannot physically spot conscience in human body. Whenever Bible refers Heart, it is not the Physical Heart but our Conscience. Spirit also refers to our conscience. On Top of this we have mind that can be attributed to our brain and thought waves. We have by default a nature to rebels against our conscience. But every human being has the basic God's law written in their conscience forming the moral law. Even a Child knows that telling lie is wrong, but the Child still lies to escape a situation. Her mind wins over her conscience. There are Children who confess that they have lied to parents because their conscience is still tender.

When a man is born again he receives Holy Spirit who convicts him of his sins and the standard of Holy Spirit is way higher than Moral standards. Now the Holy Spirit also empowers man to overcome temptations of this Flesh (not Physical body). The man still lives in same Human body. He still has his sexual desires, but the spirit empowers him to use it the right way. He still has the same flesh that tempts him to have immoral sexual relationship, but Spirit empowers him to overcome. There is no change in his Physical make up what so ever. Even in the case where God miraculously takes way certain sins like addiction, it is only a spiritual healing not a Physical change, Physically the man is still possible to fall back to addiction. Cross and switchblade refers to situation where people who receive Baptism of Holy Spirit and are miraculously healed from Drug addiction, fall back to it again. It is like Dog returning to its own vomit.

If we consider that Homosexual is genetic then it is not the temptation of flesh, it is something like a man born with mental disorder. To such a person you cannot make them accountable to God's law. The sins committed by a mentally unstable man is forgiven by default because he has no control of his mind. Same way someone who is born Homosexual has no control over their desire for men, we cannot ask them to change their sexual orientation. God himself does not ask man to stop using his sexual desires but use it in a marriage bed. But a Homosexually born man cannot get married either and how can he apply his sexual desires in a acceptable way?

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Esp 2:2-3

There is a spirit that keeps us in bondage and holds us in bondage - that spirit worked and does work in all people in different ways - one may end up a homosexual - the next a drunk - or drug addict - or adulterer - that spirit influences and controls the flesh (spirit,soul and body) to be disobedient to God.

A homosexual may say, I was born that way - and in his mind he is correct, as that spirit will tell him 'he was born made way' as it seeks to keep that person in bondage.

For me I was prone to violent outburst from a very early age - my mum used to say "I see the Duncan (mothers maiden name) in you" which says it was a family trait that I had inherited.

In one sense it was inherited, I had inherited a spiritual force that made me that way - once I was delivered from that spirit and set free, I find that the "Duncan in me" was gone - and that I have new nature, it was Christ in me.

Some of you who are arguing that homosexuality cannot be genetic in basis do so because you don't believe God would do that to someone and then hold them accountable.

However, I think it is more appropriate to say that "The Fall" did it than to say that God did it.

I think there is little doubt that there is a genetic component. I, like Deadn, have known kids growing up who at a very young age we all knew were effeminate and ultimately came out later as being gay. But they had brothers and sisters who were heterosexiual.

I think is it also fairly certain that there is a genetic component to alcoholism. Some people just cannot process it properly and it overtakes their lives.

But even if there is a certain predisposition to a certain sinful behavior, it does not give a license to sin.

Genetics have a lot to do with our behavior. Those of you with more than one child know that they can be very different at a very very young age, and they are brought up in the same environment.

I read not long ago that they think they have discovered a gene that may pre-dispose a person toward pedophilia. But this only solidifies the point-- genetic pre-disposition certainly does not equal license to act accordingly.

Some of you who are arguing that homosexuality cannot be genetic in basis do so because you don't believe God would do that to someone and then hold them accountable.

However, I think it is more appropriate to say that "The Fall" did it than to say that God did it.

I think there is little doubt that there is a genetic component. I, like Deadn, have known kids growing up who at a very young age we all knew were effeminate and ultimately came out later as being gay. But they had brothers and sisters who were heterosexiual.

I think is it also fairly certain that there is a genetic component to alcoholism. Some people just cannot process it properly and it overtakes their lives.

But even if there is a certain predisposition to a certain sinful behavior, it does not give a license to sin.

Genetics have a lot to do with our behavior. Those of you with more than one child know that they can be very different at a very very young age, and they are brought up in the same environment.

I read not long ago that they think they have discovered a gene that may pre-dispose a person toward pedophilia. But this only solidifies the point-- genetic pre-disposition certainly does not equal license to act accordingly.

Very heavy words here. While reading them I could not help but those of those who are even born with both male and female privates and I have often thought how does that happen? There must be a mutation of genes in there but then what role is God playing in it but that is another topic. Let's stick to homosexuality.

If there is a genetic component to homosexuality how do you suppose God can judge a person for it since it becomes a part of them? This is a great mystery to me if this were the case.

But again, all I want to with this thread is get everyone's thoughts on this issue because it goes much deeper than just saying it is a mere choice. At least I think it solely because of some of those we see who have come out as gay who are not doing it for some kind of name recognition.

No arguments here. Just a discussion on the topic because it is something all of us are confronting or will have to confront and we need to find out the truth behind the scenes in order to understand how to deal with it.