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Discussing Politics

sermonindex Jan 21, 2014

I would like to make a point in reference to this thread which was locked rather swiftly.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=51305&forum=48

Why is it ok to discuss politics when they relate to Israel but not ok to discuss politics when it relates to the U.S?

We are not more or less spiritual because we speak about politics of Israel over America or America over Israel. Much of what is happening today in America regarding the present Administration has a direct effect on Israel.

Can we please allow people to have as much freedom to speak about American politics as they relate to America as we do for those who want to speak about American politics as they relate to Israel?

Why would one conversation be vain laboring and "dwelling in Babylon" while the other conversation would somehow be blessed and holy?

Please don't reply in general terms which only serves to perpetuate a position of superiority to those that are being condescended to.

Forum moderators post articles regarding politics all the time. Are we to assume that said articles are posted with the intent of receiving no replies?

S
Sidewalk Jan 22, 2014

Like Just-in, I tend to be a political junkie. I listen to the voices of politics, recognize the spinning and the lying, watch the arguments churn. Out of it all leaders are selected, and laws get laid out on the people. We then live with the consequences of the constant political turmoil.

My grandchildren are vigorously preparing for their futures. They cannot comprehend the reality of the debt in the hundreds of thousands of dollars they owe, money stolen from that future, to pay for things they know nothing of. But this is politics, and they will come to know it. As I slide into old age, my time for participation in the process is going away. But I care deeply for the precious little ones that will inherit the world I leave them. Is it not fair for me to want to influence the political realities they will have to live in?

Sermon Index in my mind is a place for reason and love to work hand in hand to produce hope, character, and motivation unto good works, even political works. When Godly men and women go door to door to help get responsible (and sometimes Christian) candidates into office, the public good is affected. But there needs to be places where the information is dissected and spoken so hearers of the word can become doers.

Just my two cents on this. And for what it is worth, I have become a fan of Just-in...!

sermonindex Jan 22, 2014

Why is it ok to discuss politics when they relate to Israel but not ok to discuss politics when it relates to the U.S?

Brother,

The reason for moderators having making the decision to not encourage debating, arguing and discussing politics in detail about the USA in particular is that it creates alot of emotion, argument and division amongst brothers who otherwise would be united in the grace of Christ. Towards Israel there is much Biblical prophecy about the nation of Israel in the end-times so this is something that is important to watch and consider. Not to debate and argue over but to simply observe and pray.

The forums are specific towards speaking more to biblical situations and sermons and not sports, tv shows or politics in general. I trust you can honour the decision of the moderators in this way for the last 10+ years we have had to stop many discussions in politics and people were hurt because of emotion and hard things said. So there are good reasons in my mind for not allowing it therefore in the future.

I trust that makes sense brothers.

Below is an excerpt from the community rules: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13&0

8. DIVISIONS AND QUARRELLING - Having a healthy discussion on a topic, doctrine or important issue is allowed on SermonIndex. But if the subject discussion becomes heated and there is quarrelling it would be better to agree with your brother publicly in what you can and and hold to what you believe against him privately. This calls for great maturity and wisdom in speaking in humility. It is better to agree with a brother that you are Christians and not divide over non-essentials. Let us go forward with meekness towards each other and having in mind the larger picture of the entire body of Christ. "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought." (1 Corinthians 1:10). We have found that discussions pertaining to politics, conspiracy theories, calvinism/arminianism and others just produce strife and not the fruits of the Spirit so we ask saints not to start these discussion threads on SermonIndex.

sermonindex Jan 22, 2014

"For the Lord spoke thus to me with his strong hand upon me, and warned me not to walk in the way of this people, saying: "Do not call conspiracy all that this people calls conspiracy, and do not fear what they fear, nor be in dread. But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread."

Isaiah 8:11-13

sermonindex Jan 22, 2014

Greg,

I agree with what you said and I don't think I am contentious or argue about politics. I care very little for politics in America or Israel.

You invite comments/opinions when you post political articles but I don't think you regard all comments about the articles you post as argumentative or debating. Many comments by various people are just statements or opinions regarding the article you or others may have posted.

Additionally, I don't think it is very kind for some people to imply by their comments that others are less spiritual because they may be interested in a domestic article you posted, yet I see the same people who look down on others arguing and debating about an article on Israel.

So, I see a double standard. People can argue or debate about politics regarding Israel, yet they can hardly comment on a domestic article without being accused of being argumentative or inferior, spiritually.

When you post domestic articles about politics, do you just want us to say "we agree with you" or are we allowed to express an opinion? Or, are all opinions on domestic politics considered unimportant and argumentative and all opinions based on Israeli politics considered important and spiritual?

If an opinion differs from your (or others) opinions, is that what you call argumentative? As far as debating, I see debating all the time on any number of spiritual and non-spiritual issues. Discussing without contention is good, but discussing with contention is the kind of debating That I think this is what you don't like to see and many of us don't either.

Not trying to be argumentative, just looking for clarification on whether we can post personal opinions on articles that you or others post.

sermonindex Jan 22, 2014

Brother,

Again this is not a forum for politics most current news items are posted so we can pray about them and not end up divided with brothers over what we hold as our opinions. Towards any of the moderators posting an article or item there is no agenda other then to show the moral collapse of society, to curry prayer for society in general. To show moral issues of the day in the church and outside such as Homosexuality as a problem. And towards Israel as news about this is more important then other nations news because Biblical propechy as I mentioned is very closely-knit to them. So it is not picking and choosing but rather we are clearly posting things with purpose and intent and no matter what the item posted we do not tolerate continued debating, strife, and hurtful comments others can post to others on the forum.

So, I see a double standard. People can argue or debate about politics regarding Israel, yet they can hardly comment on a domestic article without being accused of being argumentative or inferior, spiritually.

I personally do not see a double-standard brother. In many discussion threads there have been disagreements and debates that the moderators have had to stop. In the end we are encouraging the forums a place for saints to be encouraged in their walk with the Lord and not torn-down or confused by other saints who will speak harshly, and divide brothers over non-essentials.

We do ask that brothers and sisters respect the authority of a moderator when they ask a conversation to stop in the tenor it is going because those in the heat of the battle of words cannot realize that their words have hurt others, confused and divided saints again on non-essentials. The moderators judgments are not perfect but needed. We cannot perfectly moderate the forums to have 100% wrong political or other talk happen but we can do our best as led by the Spirit to encourage saints to discuss things rightly and in the end to stop and lock threads and even warn divisive brothers and if needed in extreme cases ban an account.

I encourage saints to read over the community rules to understand what is the purpose of the forums and for us to be more in unity of encouragement and edifying one another and to be ONE in Christ: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13&0

The whole world is reading and watching what we read. So that is another big reason to ensure the discussions are done rightly so we can be a witness and light to the world.


sermonindex Jan 23, 2014

I am very sorry if I offended you in any way. believe me, it was NOT my intention to be divisive...or to stumble or anger anyone.

in fact, you were the one that showed about that terrible situation at that "patriarch" ministry, and we were of one accord on this issue....I spent days in misery on my face because of that situation....so I ask you humbly, forgive me, if I angered or vexed you at all. we all just see thru a glass darkly...and sometimes differently.

I look at this whole situation, national, global....and spend days just mourning in this wonderfully lonely "Kerith Ravine" God tucked me away in......so, I beg you, know that I meant no ill will to you or others...okay? in Jesus love, neil

sermonindex Jan 23, 2014

Brother Neil, I do forgive you and please forgive me if I have ever caused you to stumble in your heart.

I guess just posting political or non-political "hot potatoes" can in and of themselves be quite emotional without ever receiving any response from anyone.

M
MrBillPro Jan 23, 2014

I am surprised I even responded in that thread, if you ask anyone that really knows me,they would tell you, Bill don't discuss politics period. You know how I personally avoid most situations today regarding "anything" I don't condone,I just say "God made us all different", and just leave it at that. This works best for me, and keeps me from having to debate/argue with anyone on their personal views.I have said this many times in my life "especially lately" I would say, Sir, I don't discuss politics, but I respect the fact you do enjoy it, but God made us all different. This works wonders in moving on to something different in our conversations with another person.

James 3:16....For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.

S
Sidewalk Jan 23, 2014

Politics is the science/art of expressing things one believes either are true or should be, to an end that others will abide in that reality. The term "politically correct" describes how we force people to accept what we want to be true whether it is or not.

Lies that are told and never confronted become culturally true, and people are then forced to live with the artificial truth thus created.

"Pro Choice" and "homophobia" jump into view here, lies that have vaulted themselves to bring a certain control over the way we think and even write. All because someone wants these things to be accepted as normal in a way truth seeking Christians never can.

So discussing politics becomes critical in helping people sort out the lies and discovering truth. Yes it gets messy, but as Christians we must never forget that we are at war- even at times with the musings in our own heads.

Truth cannot be created, it can only be discovered.

M
MrBillPro Jan 23, 2014

by Sidewalk...So discussing politics becomes critical in helping people sort out the lies and discovering truth. Yes it gets messy, but as Christians we must never forget that we are at war- even at times with the musings in our own heads.

I understand, but my problem is, I don't really know enough about politics to debate a Chicken. :)

sermonindex Jan 23, 2014

There are also "politically correct" words and phrases and subjects in Christendom, but we should not be swayed or influenced from any kind of political correctness.

Look at the political correctness in Jesus' day.

Here is one such example:

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children. Luke 7:30-35

The Lord had a lot of opinions, though they were not shared by many.

sermonindex Jan 23, 2014

by MrBillPro on 2014/1/23 13:48:30

by Sidewalk...So discussing politics becomes critical in helping people sort out the lies and discovering truth. Yes it gets messy, but as Christians we must never forget that we are at war- even at times with the musings in our own heads.

I understand, but my problem is, I don't really know enough about politics to debate a Chicken. :)

Many can certainly spot the politics in the Church and I think you could spot a few, yourself.

S
Sidewalk Jan 24, 2014

I have friends who can quote statistics and numbers until eyes glaze over and snoring can be heard. There are always numbers, percentages, voting blocks, proposed legislation, on and on ad nauseum. But a wise man looks past most of that to the principles involved.

Ronald Reagan was thought by many to be rather dumb and uninformed. His papers later revealed that he was actually very smart and in control of a lot of data, but what he really did was win hearts with his ability to speak in terms of the principles of freedom. He understood the human longing for freedom, for opportunity, for morality, and righteous glory. It worked very well for him, and American self esteem went way up while he was in command of the world stage.

Three principles I look for as the pillars of human prosperity are:

1) Freedom and opportunity, the ability to learn something, do it well, and keep the reward of the investment.

2) Energy. When personal energy is lacking, it is difficult to do much. When public energy is rationed or unreasonably expensive, it is very hard to grow and employ people. Gasoline at $4 a gallon is a hardship, and when home heating bills are in the hundreds of dollars, people suffer.

3) Morality. A breakdown in general morality means people are fighting each other rather than working together for mutual benefit. A society with crumbling morality cannot be prosperous.

So these three areas are my main concern in the political arena, they involve principles, they are targets for those who wish to shape the future in ways that affect my life and happiness. It doesn't take a hard look to see the political decisions that put stress on all of these areas, and the current American retreat from former prosperity can be traced to political pressures against freedom, energy, and morality.

When the Affordable Care act was passed with zero support from one party, when it contained 18 new taxes burried in 2700 pages of regulations, and when doctors were never consulted on how to structure it, and when the general public was told it had to be passed so that we could see what is in it, something died. We have a serious problem unfolding.

Political debate and discussion is essential, or force takes over.

My interest in this post is not to spark debate on any particular issue, but rather to suggest that political discussion might have a healthy role in this forum. Partisan cheap shots and insults will kill a discussion quickly I know, but well reasoned debate is a treasure of potential learning. I just hope we could do some of that within the bounds of Christian charity.

This discussion is locked.

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