Please give one clear scriptural verse for a pretrib resurrection

Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

Here is a very clear verse on a post trib gathering together to Jesus at the sound of a trumpet and a shout and at the coming of Christ

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are many other verses in Old Testament and new testament that support these same verses and are just as clear.

Please provide verses not theories

To those that support a theory on pretrib please provide very clear proof in the way of scriptural verses that states a pretrib gathering or pretrib resurrection.
Let us reason together.
I can say again that there is not one clear verse that supports a pretrib resurrection.

My favorite verse is,

"In case of rapture, this car will veer wildly as mother-in-law grasps for the wheel..."

You are right Just-in. When the world mocks Christian doctrine and there is no reasonable response, unbelievers go on their ways to destruction.

Trying to tell skeptical people that one of these days all the true Christians will suddenly float off in the sky like helium balloons, they roll their eyes and wonder if there is some religion somewhere with a grip on reality. This one doesn't qualify.

In the absence of any Pre-tib adherers responding here was Chuck Smith's Pre-trib view. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14977

It is pretty much the standard pre-trib reasoning, and I have already said on the other thread I don't think it is convincing. However we can disagree with folk like Chuck Smith on this without belittling his value as a servant of Christ, who was used in a great way.

We may disagree with the whole pre-trib, secret rapture position, but we should not make the mistake of saying there is no such thing as a rapture or being caught up in the air with the Lord. It's just a question of when we go!

These two paragraphs from Chuck Smith's article make a good point:

"There are people who say, "I don't believe in the Rapture of the church," because they have looked through the Bible and have never found the word "Rapture" in the Bible. But in I Thessalonians 4:17 we read that, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"The word translated 'caught up' in the Greek is 'harpazo,' which means 'to be taken away by force.' It's usually used as a military term related to the taking of hostages. The Latin Vulgate translates 'harpazo' as 'raptuse,' and that's where we get our English word 'rapture.' Jesus will return to rapture His church." That's the first event.

So the Rapture is a fact if the bible means what it says. As I said in the other thread, I think we are raptured / caught up / gathered to be with the Lord at the end of the tribulation period, before the bowls of wrath are poured out, at the last trumpet. That seems to me to fit all the scriptures best.

Hi Frank I fully understand what is being asked and have adressed that issue from my understanding of the subject. However my caution regarding not dismisssing the rapture as an event was in response to the three posts prior to mine by Budgie and Sidewalk which were implying that. Maybe Sidewalk needs to explain what he means when he says about floating up in the sky in such a dismissive way, when the scripture clearly says we will meet the lord in the air?

Greetings saints!

If I may be so bold as to quote a short piece from Watchman Nee on the great subject of rapture. His (Watchman Nee) teachings are found here on sermonindex so I hope it's alright.

Excerpt from THE KING AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. by WATCHMAN NEE Pg 285:

"There are different views on rapture among believers. Some say (1) that the whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation; others believe (2) that the whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured; while still others feel (3) that a part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation.

There are mainly these three schools of interpretation on the subject; yet merely because any one of them is different from the one you hold to does not give you any warrant to denounce the different view as heresy. It is wrong to withhold fellowship simply for this reason. Well-known believers are found in all three schools.

Of the first school mentioned, names can be cited such as J. N. Darby, William Kelly (C. H. Spurgeon once said that Kelly’s brain was as large as the universe), R. A. Torrey (who later changed to a post-tribulation rapture view), Phillips Brooks, James Gray, Arno C. Gaebelein, J. A. Seiss, C. I. Scofield, and so forth.

Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A. J. Gordon ofBoston, A. B. Simpson, W. J. Erdman, W. G. Moorehead, Henry Frost of Canada, James Wright, Benjamin Newton, and so on.

And as to the third school, we have names such as Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold), G. H. Pember, D. M. Panton (the "prince of prophecy”) and others. None of the three schools can completely ignore the others, yet only one is correct. Let us therefore examine them with fairness, having the attitude of a judge and not that of a lawyer."

I hope this helps someone. For interest's sake Nee goes on to share his own view on the subject in that very chapter.

Stay blessed

James

In answer to Chuck Smith article and to others that focus on the {caught up }.Paul is speaking about the main doctrine/subject as to the Resurrection of the dead, all of the preceeding verses are about the truth of being raised from the dead, he is not preaching about a doctrine of being { caught up } no where else in Pauls teaching does he focus on [ caught up }
THESSALONIANS 4 is a brilliant defense for the Resurrection

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It says that the dead in Christ shall rise first, this is clearly the Resurrection, we that are alive at this time will then be caught up together to meet them.

The Truth is YES there is a Resurrection and yes when this Resurrection takes place we who are alive will be {caught up } together with them in the clouds.
Great Truth, Jesus said the same He will gather us together to meet him in the clouds, exactly the same.

Thessalonians 4 is a brilliant presentation and proof by God that there is a Resurrection and that Yes we will be caught up together with them, BUT IT DOES NOT CLEARLY SAY THAT THIS IS BEFORE THE TRIBULATION

YES THERE IS A RESURRECTION AND YES WE WILL BE RAPTURED ( TAKEN UP ) WHEN THIS RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THIS GREAT TRUTH

The perception today is that as soon as the word rapture is used, automatically it is assumed that it is Pretrib resurrection, what a lie THE RAPTURE IS BEING CAUGHT UP TOGETHER TO CHRIST IN THE CLOUDS WHEN THE RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE,
There is no time frame as to how long this catching up takes place, as the disciples watched in amazement as Jesus ascended into the clouds so it will be when He returns and when we ascend to meet Him, it will be a very visible scene to the whole world

So Thess 4 is not a good defense for a PreTrib argument as there is no mention of Tribulation in these verses, but is the most brilliant revelation of the Resurrection of the Dead.

Budgie, I must appologise to you because I had wrongly said it was you and Sidewalk that were implying no Rapture. It was Just in and Sidewalk I should have been adressing, not you at all.

Also I agree with what you just wrote regarding the rapture. That was the point i was making to those guys. I guess you had to shout (caps), because I misrepresented you.:)

Jimm,

Interesting article by watchman nee. I have been trying to say simliar in that we should not shout heresy against those who hold a different view to us on this subject. Also intersting that those ones mentioned who chaged their position went from pre to post, which is much like me, although I would not say 'post', as it can be misunderstood. I would say 'end of trib, pre-wrath. Maybe I've added another catagory! :D

By the way, what is Nee's position?

Hi Greg,
That was a mistake I made every time I read the the scripture.
Then one day God pointed this out to me on the following scriptures:

1 thess 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [a]imperishable, and we will be changed.

1.The basis that we think no one will see the rapture is that it happens so quickly ie"in a twinkling.
We will just vanish into thin air!
But look at it again the scripture only says we will "be changed" in the "twinkling"
2 The Rapture or the "going up in the as sky "will be seen by all because it is not instantaneous .It will be quick but in "minutes "rather than seconds or instant
3its all about timing if the "rapture" or "taking up" is not instantaneous then we will be able to see it as with all other translations or raptures in the bible.
The rapture will take some time "minutes" and then the changing will be in a "twinkling"

So therefore their is no secret Rapture!

Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
When asked what would his coming be like?Jesus said

JUST AS IT HAPPENED(Not similar or close or roughly)but JUST

26"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28"It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

This scripture does not say that their is a pre tribulation rapture but it does say that a post tribulation has a problem timeline wise.

yours Staff

Hey Dave

To answer your question on what's Nee's position. I will quote him and a little bit of his exegesis. As you can imagine it's a rather lengthy chapter and is not possible to summarize, but just to give you a bit of background to Nee's view I thought it prudent to share a small portion. Again this is an excerpt from THE KING AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN by WATCHMAN NEE:

"Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one””that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards" (Pg 303)

"A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half years’ period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope””"Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13)””for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, "Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

F. There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives." (pg 297)

This is of course one of many views and I respect differences in opinion. I have read books on the subject Evangelical and Charismatic alike, but Nee to me seems very calm and methodical in his approach and is one of few books on the subject I can recommend. He also makes lengthy arguments for post-trib and pre-trib in the same book.

Jimm

Hi Frank,
I think that explanation of planting,marrying etc comparing Germany is totally inadequate and anyone comparing and being honest with themselves could not equate a time where you could freely eat,drink,marry,plant,build,buy and sell with the "the great tribulation".
I guess it is up to the reader to decide whether when God is pouring out his wrath on the world bowl,vials etc the Anti Christ reign is in full swing is the same time described by Jesus as time of eating,planting building marrying,buying and selling.
But it not up to the reader to decide on the following as we know it without having to decide because Jesus said it clearly.
JUST like in the days of Noah and Lot Judgement did not come until after Lot went out and it was immediately after they left.
This leaves a problem with the timeline.
Yours Staff

What I meant about dismissive is the fact that unbelievers dismiss the entire gospel message when they encounter one part that is off the wall. The rapture doctrine has no viable stream in scripture, is has no real precedent in the historical record that directs a new believer to see some logic. On the other hand, Jesus Himself did demonstrate rapture on the Mount of Transfiguration. He was physically raptured, and we can envision that to some degree.

My emphasis in all this is that the Holy Spirit is working right now, bringing us to a point in history where we will be caught up, literally, to the place where Jesus is, clothed with immortality, perfected in His image. We will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. The cloud is the larger body of believers who have gone before us and we will join them in the cloud. This is a cloud of witnesses, and predates the modern internet term.

We can argue about the details of flying off into the sky, but my spirit seems to be much more attuned to the restoration of the earth under its temporary curse. I look for the blessed work described in Psalm 149.

Many have not studied the book of Revelations and all of the other prophetic books and placed in proper perspective the timeframes.
No where in scripture does it say that at the end of 1260 days exactly does Jesus Christ return, no where does it state that. Jesus certainly did not say that. Jesus stated some events that would take place AFTER the tribulation but how many days we do not know.
What it does clearly show is that the Antichrist that will be arising from out of the midst of the people will be working and He does not receive His power until the Abomination of Desolation takes place then He is given power for only 1260 days in the middle of the 7 year peace treaty, he appears as a wonderful and intriguing man before that 1260 days he then exalts himself as God(he is only given power for 1260 days) it does not say that at the end of the 1260 days he then dies or is killed at exactly that point, also the 2 witnesses are only given power for 1260 days and then at the end of that 1260 days they lay dead for 3 1/2 days then they are raised from the dead.So there is at least a 3 1/2 days after the 1260 days. The Gentiles are only given 1260 days to trample Jerusalem, the people that flee into the wilderness are protected for 1260 days then what? There is still a time frame that takes place after the 1260 days, the beast loses his power, the 2 witnesses are gone.
Jesus said this
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
AND HE ALSO SAID THIS
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So there is a small timeframe that takes place after the Tribulation of those days, that tribulation ends and then after that there are signs in Heaven but we are not given that timeframe???? is it a week or is it a month// whatever it is it is immediately after the Tribulation, there is no mention of anything else.
DANIEL talks about some of the timeframe
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Lets not date set, LET US ALL ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER AS THE TIME APPROACHES SO THAT WE MAY ALL BE STANDING WITH CHRIST AND EACH OTHER ON THAT BLESSED DAY OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST