Hell

Friends,If this issue has been addressed, please point me to a previous thread and excuse my oversight. I rarely post here.Last year I fell into some hard times as I began to study Biblical hell. I stumbled upon www.tentmaker.org, and began digesting articles. The arguements seemed pretty solid, but I wanted the views from the other side of the fence. I could never find any quality scholarly resources.Any recommendations? Most books on hell that I find never address the Greek or Hebrew, nor the issues presented at Tentmaker, but rather begin with the foundation that eternal hell exists and build their arguements from this point upward.I am looking for some "from the ground up" materials. One that can shed some insight on the Old Testament view of hell, as to why Jesus choose the words he did (Gehenna, et al), and why they mean hell as we know it.Thanks and God bless!

Hi seekingGod,Here is a good start: HELL: The District of DamnationGod Bless,-Robert

Tentmaker is a very suspect site. It is not one that I would reccomend to anyone. Tread carefully. (edited addition) I am not sure what the denominational foundation is of the Tentmaker site, perhaps Adventist?Greg :-?

I think that Tentmaker is a pretty good resource. It doesn't have a denominational foundation, by the way. But as Greg pointed out no site is worthy of our complete devoution and trust. We must rely on the spirit of God within us, and his scriptures to guide us. Not forgetting of course those around us, as it is written -'Iron sharpens iron'.Jesus said; which one of you, if your child asked for bread would give him a stone...if you being evil give good gifts to your children how much more your heavenly Father.Could you imagine an earthly parent tormenting their child for ever? What would be the purpose? I certainly wouldn't do it to my children! Nor yet to the children of my worst enemy nor yet to my worst enemy himself.Most christians do indeed struggle with this doctrine (Eternal Torment) but perhaps because of tradition, peer pressure and questionable bible translation they end up toeing the party line. Although in my experience many still reserve a place for 'the larger hope' in thier innermost heart.One of the best books to read on this matter is "The inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott, a university professor. Google for it-its also available for download as a pdf for a (much) reduced price. God bless you in your seeking and in your studies. Whichever outcome you become convinced by be ware of becoming closed to those of the opposing view. Because Universal Reconcilliation is a minority view (at least among Bible believers) there is a danger that its believers may cut them selves off from the rest of the body and develop eiter an elitist or a victim mentality-for which there is no need.Again, Blessings.

Some time ago I did a personal study about the words "hell" and "gehenna". I would like to submit to you a part of this study. Gehenna and “hell”The notion or idea of “hell” is a major problem for Christians in general, and when I say a majorproblem, most of us don’t know that the word itself – which conveys ideas – is a very seriousproblem. In all my inquiries during this study, I haven’t found any satisfactory explanation ofthe word “gehenna”. I have checked most of the more popular Bible dictionaries and quite afew commentaries, as well as – and this is more disturbing – Bible word dictionaries; these toolswhich are written by qualified linguists. I will not quote these sources here as I wish not topoint fingers at anyone in naming their books.The great problem is that the word “hell” and the manifold ideas which it conveys is totallyforeign to the Bible. One amazing thing surfaced when I looked up the way the Greek word “gehenna” was translated in the many Bibles I have. Most English Bibles translate “gehenna” by “hell”, but it is never thus translated in some languages like French; even in the Roman Catholic translations, in all these French versions the word given is “géhenne”. Now I must admit that I don’t have in my study all the versions and translations that exist, I speakonly of those I have; but I think that it is very significant.The question I would like to ask the Greek scholars who translate the Bible and who writedictionaries, lexicons and other study tools is: where do you get this idea of “hell” so as to bethat free to insert it in God’s Word?I have checked two of the most famous French dictionaries about the definition of “hell”(“enfer” or “enfers” in French).The “Larousse” and the “Flammarion” French dictionaries say that the origin of the word – insingular – (“enfer”), is the Latin “infernus” and means “a lower place”, i.e. the netherworld.For the definition of the word in plural (“les enfers”) it indicates that the origin is mythological.Both dictionaries agree as to the origin of the word.In both cases, i.e. in the singular and the plural, the origin of the word is not to be found in the Bible. It comes from both mythology and the Latin culture. Now mythology has nothing tooffer believers in the Lord Jesus, and Latin was the common language of the Middle Ages, anage much later than the New Testament times.I believe that one great source of the problem is the way the translators of the AuthorisedVersion (KJV) handled the word “gehenna”. To translate “gehenna” by “hell” was a very greatand fatal mistake, because it gave the word a meaning completely foreign to its true Scripturalmeaning. Since many English speaking believers still use the KJV today, and since manytranslations which have followed it have copied the inadequate translation of the word“gehenna” without, it seems, much inquiry as to the real meaning of the word; a concept wasborn in the minds of God’s people.Over the years the concept has developed into a doctrine, and one which is widely accepted, somuch so that many believers would bluntly refuse even to reconsider the very existence of sucha place called “hell”. Now I can see many of us raising arms saying that if “hell” doesn’t exist,what is to become of the wicked and of our doctrine? The fact is that the doctrine of “hell” is so well accepted today that not a book on “Systematic Theology” is without a chapter on “The Doctrine of Hell”! This is quite amazing considering the origin of the word.Just to give but one example. In one such famous and recent “Systematic Theology”, one canread thus:“Scripture teaches in several passages that there is such a place [as hell]. At the end of theparable of the talents, the master says, ‘Cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Matt.25:30). This is one among several indications that there will be a consciousness of punishment after the final judgement.”Don’t you find it odd that a renowned theologian would state such an aberration? Where doeshe see the word “hell” in the verse he has just quoted to “prove” that there is such a place? The great problem is that even though the word “hell” is totally foreign to the Bible, it is a widely accepted concept. Its doctrine is being taught in all the seminaries and Bible schools, I am not surprised that so many of us fall victims to such things as: fear of losing one’s salvation; of thinking that to do good deeds might help us to get out of “there”; of being confused as to what we call “the last things”; of being ignorant of such vital truths as the judgement seat of Christ and the millennium reign to come; of mixing salvation and rewards etc…Manfred

i have read a good book on this topic,as i guess most have"the road to hell", everlasting torment or annihilation by david pawsonthe description on the back says"hell is the most offensize & least acceptable of all christian doctrines. we try to ignore it but it wont go away.better to face the truth even if it hurts"most of Christs teachings on this uncomfortable subject was addressed to his followers, yet it hardly feautures in sermons today.challenging the modern alternatives of liberal"universalism" and evangelical "annihilationism"david pawson presents the traditional concept of endless torment as soundly biblical,illustrating his argument with in depth scripture studies on controversial passages.heaven is also a reality, he affirms, but it is hell which is overlooked.he states"i am convinced that the recovery of this neglected truth is vital to the health of Christs body"i really liked his style,how he wrote this aswel as the verses to study.its interesting to note that Jesus talked a lot on money & hell?i highly reccomend this for a hard look at this subject.has anyone else read it?

Manfred After all the information you recorded here, I still do not understand what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to say that you do not believe in a literal hell?? This is one of those areas where intellectuals like to play word games, so I will not mention that word. How about we let the Word of God speak to this issue.Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had recieved the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE.Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER.Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death.Rev. 20:15 And WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE.Gods word clearly states that there is a LAKE OF FIRE where sinners will be cast. It sure sounds like (that place) to me. With utmost respect: Greg

Gods word clearly states that there is a LAKE OF FIRE where sinners will be cast. It sure sounds like (that place) to me. Yes indeed there is a lake of fire but there is also a river of life, healing for the nations and a cry from the bride and the Spirit "he who is thirsty -Come!"Don't confuse the process with the goal. The goal is God all in all (1 Cor 15) The lake of fire is merly part of the process.Peace.

Don't confuse the process with the goal. The goal is God all in all (1 Cor 15) The lake of fire is merly part of the process.So are you saying that even those in hell will eventually be saved?

The idea of eternity without God is my idea of hell.. darkness without Christ who is the only light in heaven... the fulfillment of all carnal passions without the restraint of the Holy Spirit . . . man's decieptful and wicked heart continually hungry and never being full. How can you possibly speak of repentance without judgement? What is judgement without righteous and just reward, to the left hand eternal damnation and to the right hand eternal life. There is no quibbling or equivocation in the word of God; we are at war with spiritual powers who have lost that war but will battle on until the final judgement. I refuse to be blinded to hell, it isn't " doctrine" it is reality, the evidence of things not seen. If I want to be on fire for God I have to be willing to be bound and thrown into the furnace; all sacrifices will be salted with fire. I pray that my thoughts and words will be acceptable to our God, who is a consuming fire. I would rather be a living follower than a melted plate of bronze. I deliberately leave out the scripture references because I take for granted that you have read the bible as I have ;-) Thank you for listening.Rich

I think that Tentmaker is a pretty good resource. It doesn't have a denominational foundation, by the way. Unless you count the Universalist church as a denomination, that is.One thing I've seen a lot in here is people talking about the idea of eternal damnation being offensive. And they're entirely right, it is. That doesn't make it any less true. The Bible flatly states that it is an offensive book, why should we try to make it any less offensive?Here's an excellent resource on the subject.http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm

Thank you for clearing that up Neilgin 1. I knew there was something wrong with that site when a fellow that I respected a lot became addicted to the site, and has fallen away, largley I believe because of some of the teachings on that site.Greg

Unless you count the Universalist church as a denomination, that is.No, tentmaker is nothing got to do with the Universalist Church (I persume you are refering to the UU denomination)Don't confuse the doctrine of universalism with the Universalist denomination (which is now part of the Unitarian Universalist Church)

Just to clarify what I said.1) There isn't such a word as "hell" in the Scriptures, this is a "place" and "concept" that is totally foreign to the Word of God.2) As Smokey said the right expression is "the lake of fire", where all the lost will end according to the Scriptures.3) Nearly all theological books and manual have a chapter on "hell", none have one on "the lake of fire".Conclusion, let us stick to the Word of God, and let us not take everything that the theologians say as being the truth. I respect theologians, I consult their books, and I have been to "Bible school"; but in the end what matters is what the Bible says and teaches.Manfred

"the road to hell", everlasting torment or annihilation by david pawsonhas anyone else read it?I have read it. I like David Pawson's writings, even when I don't agree with him. He is biblical and not afraid to handle difficult topics. I would recommend the above title for anyone who is prepared to think and, if necessary, change their minds.

I have read it. I like David Pawson's writings, even when I don't agree with him. He is biblical and not afraid to handle difficult topics. I would recommend the above title for anyone who is prepared to think and, if necessary, change their minds.Never read it, but certainly Pawson is always excellent. I will read it when I have a free slot in my 'to read; list.One should never be afraid to read an opposing view with an honest heart.

TacoIt does not matter if the tentmaker site is a product of a "christian" universalist church or not. I do not see how anyone who is a Christian can ,in any way, have a universalist view on scripture. Maybe not all of thier teaching is bad, but how much error are you willing to expose yourself to. When I bite into an apple, and find a worm, I spit it out, and throw away the apple.Greg :-o

thanks for your comments smokey, By the way, there are universalists featured on sermonindex :-o