seeking to understand and clear up confusion

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rainydaygirl Feb 11, 2014

if true conversion has happened in a persons life, if someone has truly given their heart and life to the Lord will their be change in the life of this person? will it be evident to others around them that a change has happened? If a person is truly converted by Encounter and abandonment to Christ, and the Creator Himself is living inside of them will their be a change in that person?

i realize this person will not be perfect in an instance but will their be evidence of a changed life or will this person who now calls themselves Christian continue on living the way they did before?

i ask this because of another thread i was apart of today that has brought up many questions for me. i don't want to go back to that thread and speak to the particulars of it but would rather speak to this question, "does true conversion, following Jesus, repenting of sins, and living to Him as Lord of your life bring about a changed life or can one simply just continue on as before?"

rdg

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savannah Feb 11, 2014

RE: rdg - ...question,

1) "does true conversion, following Jesus, repenting of sins, and living to Him as Lord of your life bring about a changed life...

Ans. to ques. 1 --- ABSOLUTELY!

2) or, can one simply just continue on as before?"

Ans. to ques. 2 --- ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I hope my answers were not too complicated.

R

rainydaygirl Feb 11, 2014

No your answers were not too complicated.

Rdg

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HeartSong Feb 11, 2014

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - 2 Corinthians 5:17

It is like in the movie "Matrix", (this coming from someone who no longer watches movies) suddenly being awakened to that which we could previously not see, and hearing that which we previously could not hear, and realizing all that we previously believed in does not really exist.

The reality of our LORD Jesus Christ comes alive as the things of this world fade away. He who was once invisible, becomes visible to our hearts in a excruciatingly beautiful way.

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proudpapa Feb 11, 2014

Hi rainydaygirl

rainydaygirl wrote : ///i ask this because of another thread i was apart of today that has brought up many questions for me. i don't want to go back to that thread and speak to the particulars of it but would rather speak to this question, "does true conversion, following Jesus, repenting of sins, and living to Him as Lord of your life bring about a changed life or can one simply just continue on as before?"///

I do not think anyone whom participated in the past thread would be in disagreement with this reality.
I think the main point that a couple of the posters including myself where trying to make is that we need to becareful that we do not pass judgement on such cases in which the circumstances are so far removed from that of our own.

good thoughts, I am in total agreement that the true Gospel is not a gospel of lasciviousness

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Sidewalk Feb 11, 2014

One hears from time to time of celebrities who have come to Christ with a rather public splash. They are fawned over, pushed into interviews, and hoisted onto pedestals for idolization and marketed by the Christian merchants of fame and fortune. They change, but not into vessels useful to God. You probably know some of the names I am reluctant to drop here.

Change for it's own sake is of no value. Ask America- they voted for change without ever asking what the changes would be. They are slowly coming to realize that change does not necessarily mean for the better.

He has to command the change, He reserves the right to tell you that change has happened. The Holy Spirit is the person of God who comes into our being to make His abode inside of us, and He announces Himself with a witness of His presence.

Ephesians 1:13-14 NKJV
[13] In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The bottom line is that when God is living within you, and you know He's there, you cannot live as you lived before. If nothing is changed, He probably has not been welcomed in as the Lord He needs to be. Like the pitiful stories of the celebrities who have stumbled into Christendom without truly coming to know the Savior, the imposters will soon leave to find more fulfilling fleshly pursuits.

Those who are led by the flesh will love the flesh, those led by the Spirit will love the things of God. You will see the change.

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Amen, proudpapa.

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rainydaygirl Feb 11, 2014

thank you. from reading these replies i wonder more about the other thread topic but will leave it for now.

rdg

(Just read this, this morning. much for me to devour and think on here)

You do what you do for JESUS, no matter what the cost, or if you ever get ANYTHING out of it””or it is NOT CONVERSION at all. There are no "conditions” on Jesus and no way to "use” Him for your own gain or purposes, no matter how "noble” those purposes seem to YOU. That is humanism and self-love and false religion””and we weren’t going to give in to any of those things with you.

I tell you all of this, waiting anxiously (as I have been, we have been) for many years””to hear of the REAL thing””a LIFE SURRENDERED TO JESUS TOTALLY, without self-centered "strings attached” or you would feel like you got a raw deal. When it is the REAL thing, and you are truly Encountering and Saved by the Messiah, the Son of God””you will serve Him with all your heart, whether you EVER "get anything out of it” or not. You will lay down your life for OTHERS, regardless of whether you ever get anything in return, or are ever appreciated or recognized or respected or included or ANYTHING. You would even gladly go to Hell itself for the privilege of loving and obeying Jesus for your short lifetime here. Self-indulgence, drugs, worldly lusts for goodies of any kind””DO NOT HAVE ANY BEARING ON YOUR DECISIONS. You are abandoned to WHATEVER He wants for your life. You are motivated by, "HE IS WORTHY”””not by your own desires. THAT can not be sabotaged by the enemy, nor can it ever become stale or boring or undesirable. THAT is how JESUS lived, and the Cross He invites you to "take up daily” for others.

What do you think? Is THAT what you’ve come to, or are you still trying to climb the fence, rather than to come through the Door?

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Dear sister since I was the one that initiated the other thread I apologize for any confusion. I also apologize if it has caused you to stumble. But that is the risk of posting in s Christian forum with people at different stages in their walk with Christ.

Sister (wish I knew your real name) I would have said the same thing a few years ago. Anybody who comes to Christ in a restricted nation should go and shout it out regardless of the circumstances. But having facilitated a persecution prayer call for over 3 years I have learned that God works in different ways in restricted nations to get the gospel out. And that is the goal. To get the gospel out to those who are in demonic darkness.

You have quoted the verses in Mat. 10 about confessing Christ before men so that Jesus would confess them before His Father. Quite right. But in that sane chapter Jesus also told His disciples to be shrewed as snakes and innocent as doves. There will cone a time when one is to make a public declaration of Jesus but it must be of the Spirit's leading. Particularly in restricted nations one must use wisdom and discernment in confession and proclaming Christ. Not so that they escape martyrdom. But to protect other believers and for the gospel to go forth.

My sister in referring to the sister in Saudi who cane to Christ yet still remained in the context of Islam because of her marriage. This sister is not afraid to die for Christ. Her desire is to see her family come to Jesus. But going out in the middle of Mecca or Medina or Ryad and denouncing Mohammed and saying turn or burn is not the wisest way to witness to Moslems. It might be brave but foolish. And lead to an untimely death.

Sister I would encourage you to do some reading on the persecuted church. Get the book by Tom Doyle on Dreams and Visions. Not only would your confusion be clarified but you will be rejoicing over what God is doing among the Moslems. That many are coming to Jesus.

Yours in Christ,

Blaine

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rainydaygirl Feb 11, 2014

Blaine

you did not cause me to stumble but i still find your post confusing. it almost seems as if you are saying two different things based off of where a person lives. i never said that the woman you spoke of or anyone should tell others to turn or burn(i really hate that phrase actually) my struggle with your entire post was these two comments. first you wrote this: "Because this movement of God foes not fit our theological bias. This movement of God does not conform to our religious presuppositions. Certainly Jesus does not appear to Moslems in dreams and visions and bid them to follow Him. After all that stuff stopped after 100 AD. And Imoms certainly cannot have an experience with Christ and still remain in the context of Islam."

and my question was simple how can you say that someone has had a true conversion experience and "yet remain in the context of Islam?" To follow Islam is sinful in the eyes of God because it denies Christ so how could someone who has come to Christ possibly "remain in the context of Islam?"

my second issue was with the woman you spoke of, again i did not say she must yell for all to hear but you wrote this: She may have a New Testament but must read it in secret. This dear sister will stay in the context if her religion but prays for her husband, his other wives, and her children to come to knuw Christ."

again confusion comes in because following Islam is sinful in the eyes of God so how could she stay in the context of her religion?" and yet turn from the sin of her previous life.

Those are the things i am seeking Him on and so far i still can not reconcile the two. again if a true conversion is evident in life changing attitude towards sin and the things God hates how could anyone come to Christ and remain in their sin.(stay in a false religion) Don't we all have to count the cost when we come to Jesus. I know of families that have been ripped apart because a husband comes to Jesus and the wife wants no part of it so she gives ultimatums, "its either this Jesus or me?". I know where sons and daughters have been shunned and completely cut off by parents, sisters and brothers because they chose to follow Christ. These people count the cost and because their love for Christ is so profound they abandon all and follow Jesus.

i am not saying the people you mentioned should cry out from the roof tops, but we are called to abandoned all. what does "all" mean then??? we are told to repent and turn from sin. Surely practicing and continuing on in Islam would be considered sin wouldn't it?

I know there are Muslims coming to Jesus just as others who are lost and deceived come to Him and I have read much on the persecuted church. i have even been on the calls you host before so i do know their sorrow and suffering.

my question is simple if a true conversion in a persons life happens won't that person want to turn from the sins of their past life. in that context if Islam is sinful because it denies Christ then how could anyone who has truly come to Jesus remain in it? How could anyone who has come to Jesus remain in any sin knowingly?

rdg

edit: I was just speaking with a young man here and we were talking about the heart. i don't know what has happened in the hearts of the people you shared about i only know this from the Word and from examples in history. Those who have truly come to know Jesus, who love Him and whose hearts He has captivated they can not help but have it expressed and shown in their daily lives. Paul after his encounter with Christ was a new man, he even said its no longer i that live but Christ crucified. that is the issue here, no we don't judge by outward appearances, and yet a changed life will display outward appearances for all to see. It happens because of who He is now living in us! that is where my confusion comes in, trying to reconcile what you wrote and what the Bible tells us about a changed life in Christ.
anyway i am sure you are busy thank you for hearing me on this.

rdg

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Hi RDG,

I can understand why you are confused. The notion that you would come to Jesus and still remain a Muslim and continue going to the mosque is simply not Biblicall nor would one find any historical comparisons to this, in fact quite the opposite. Lets go the heart of the Middle East and see if we can see the exact oppoiste of this. In the Roman world, tens of thousands of men, woman and children were martyred because they refused to dip their fingers in oil once a year in the public square and pronounce Caesur a God. Not for railing agains the Roman Gods, for Paul did not even speak against Diana as he was falsey accused.

The whole history of the Martyrs is a history of people who bore witness to the truth and were killed because of it. Should the early believers simply have dipped thier fingers in the oil to save ther lives or the lives of their children? Should Catholics who came to Jesus and denied the essential truths of Catholicism simply go along with Catholicism and bow thier knees to a wafer of bread so as to save thier lives? We stand upon the shoulders of the Martyrs down through the ages who willingly gave their lives for love of the Truth and in no way could they or would they deny their Jesus, they would rather die. The notion that one can either go around shouting turn or burn or rail against Mohammed , or simply go along with the system they find themslelves in is an over simplification and false dichotomy.........bro Frank

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ginnyrose Feb 11, 2014

rdg,

May I suggest your question about how Muslims can become believers and still remain a secret believer in that context has greater application then you may think.

Consider: there are many here in the Western world, yea even on SI, who call themselves Believers. They can write nicely, speak well, be Biblical, but what we do not know is their heart. Have they been transformed by the Spirit of God? Lots of people have knowledge and can fool many with it.

rdg, I have learned that this is one issue that I will have to leave with the LORD. I am not called to judge others' hearts. We are called to teach, warn and encourage but in the final analysis it is God who determines who are His and what their reward will be. Remember when Peter asked Jesus about John? He told Peter, "what is that to thee? Follow thou me." I think the command is as pertinent today as it was back then. It will relive you of a lot of questions. Make sense?

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rainydaygirl Feb 11, 2014

by appolus on 2014/2/11 10:59:27

Hi RDG,

I can understand why you are confused. The notion that you would come to Jesus and still remain a Muslim and continue going to the mosque is simply not Biblicall nor would one find any historical comparisons to this, in fact quite the opposite.--

thank you very much for this post. you seem to understand perfectly what i was asking and getting at.

rdg

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Rainyday,

I entered that other conversation a bit late. I thought I should clear up that I don't think a Christian should continue to cavort with idols after he is saved. Some "newborns" are ignorant, though. But, we are not talking of ignorance, here and I get that. My remarks in the other thread really had nothing to do with the original OP so I was not supporting that and don't support any non-ignorant worship of idols. I have known Catholics that got gloriously saved but did not know right away that they should stop receiving communion from the Catholic church as it is part of a sacrifice to a false Christ (idol). Not to mention the fact that it is an abomination for it is not "the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ".

This anathema from the Roman Catholic Church still stands today.
Canon 1.If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema.

My comments in the other thread had more to do with listening to the Holy Spirit as to when and where to reveal yourself. Nothing about denying Christ by one's current practices of hanging on to old idols. I do agree with Apollus' post and don't think we should engage in subterfuge. A born-again Christian wants absolutely nothing to do with old idols as they affront to His Lord that he has come to love (with ALL his heart).

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Hi Just-in,

I agree entirely with your post. ....... bro Frank

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Hi RDG,

I thought this may be helpful to you. It is Matthew Henry's commentary on Matt 10:16 on being as wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove which seems to be the only Scripture put to you....................

"Sufferings from friends and relations are very grievous; nothing cuts more. It appears plainly, that all who will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution; and we must expect to enter into the kingdom of God through many tribulations. With these predictions of trouble, are counsels and comforts for a time of trial. The disciples of Christ are hated and persecuted as serpents, and their ruin is sought, and they need the serpent's wisdom. Be ye harmless as doves. Not only, do nobody any hurt, but bear nobody any ill-will. Prudent care there must be, but not an anxious, perplexing thought; let this care be cast upon God. The disciples of Christ must think more how to do well, than how to speak well. In case of great peril, the disciples of Christ may go out of the way of danger, though they must not go out of the way of duty. No sinful, unlawful means may be used to escape; for then it is not a door of God's opening. The fear of man brings a snare, a perplexing snare, that disturbs our peace; an entangling snare, by which we are drawn into sin; and, therefore, it must be striven and prayed against. Tribulation, distress, and persecution cannot take away God's love to them, or theirs to him. Fear Him, who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. They must deliver their message publicly, for all are deeply concerned in the doctrine of the gospel. The whole counsel of God must be made known."

This seems to address the points that you were making sister, may the Lord bless you as you stand upon the Word...............bro Frank

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

And brethren , I must respectfully take s different position on thus issue. God is working among the Moslems and they are coming to Christ. Some are remaining in the context of Islam to reach others for Christ.

I do believe that you are trying to judge what God is doing among the persecuted by a western paradyne. If the end result is people are coming to Christ then wisdom is vindicated by its fruit.

You are looking at the outward appearance but God examines the heart. His desire us to see Moslems reached fir Christ. Thus is being done through quiet witness and discussion. This is occurring in the ME.

I doubt very seriously if getting Moslems converted and having them instantly beheaded will speed the great commission. Though some, as Stephen, may give a glorious witness and reach a Saul or two.

I would suggest once again that some read Tom Doyle's book and see what God is doing among the Moslems.

Again His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. But examine the fruit of souls coming from the NE before you make hasty judgements.

Blaine

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rainydaygirl Feb 11, 2014

by appolus on 2014/2/11 13:18:21

Hi RDG,

I thought this may be helpful to you. It is Matthew Henry's commentary on Matt 10:16 on being as wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove which seems to be the only Scripture put to you............

Thank you that has helped me understand that verse better and does make sense to me. I appreciate you taking the time to post that.

also to justin thank you for clearing up your thoughts concerning the other thread. i can say that i do agree with both you and frank and what you posted.

rdg

sermonindex Feb 11, 2014

Brother Blaine and I disagree on this subject and have agreed to disagree. I do not think his position is hasty or he has a lack of knowledge when it comes to Scripture. Neither do I think just-in is hasty or lacking in knowledge nor RDG. Obviously I do not think that of myself either.

I think putting forward our opinions is one thing and our understandings of Scripture is another. So the question is not about any of us personally and it is good to keep it that way. The question I think would be this. Can a man become a Christian and still be an Imam and teach the Koran week after week and honor Mohammed and Allah? Can a Catholic priest come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and still continue to celebrate the Catholic mass week after week even although he no longer believes the piece of bread is actually Jesus, the center-piece of Catholicism?

What about Mormons? Can a Mormon come to Jesus and stay within Mormonism because he may suffer persecution if he comes out? Jehovahs Witness', Bhudist , can they all come to Jesus and stay within their own religions? Would a convert in the Apsotles day be commended for continuing to worship in a pagan temple? If we are still here when the anti-Christ comes, shall it be okay to take the mark because it is only an outward thing and that the Lord knows our hearts?

Will the argument stand that we are taking the mark so that ourselves and our families will not suffer? These, at least to me, are the logical conclusions of the argument being put forward. I may be wrong, but the one Scripture, Matt 10:16 has been ably addressed here by Matthew Henry and very well addressed by Havoc on the other thread. ..........bro Frank

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havok20x Feb 11, 2014

Can we move the discussion about the Imam and stuff back over to the thread with the OP. I don't want to bombard RDG's thread over the same stuff she created a new thread to avoid. Thanks!