bigotry jail

I posted this on another discussion board that includes rabid Atheists. I was so blown away by it that I wanted to post it here and get your opinions on it. It has been on my mind more and more in seeing what is going on America.

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This homosexual march is becoming very strong across America and like a virus it is spreading from state to state in the name of equality. One side says they were born that way while the other side say no it is sexual immorality just as is fornication and adultery. The pro homosexual side uses terms such as homophobic, homophobia, and bigotry and even 'hate speech' to brand those who disagree with their stand. It leaves me to wonder if the stance will be so strong that 'bigots' ,as they are labeled, will eventually go to jail for disagreeing with this lifestyle whether just in simple disagreement or in disagreement through business dealings?

There was a time when committing adultery would cause someone to be stoned to death and then it evolved to be placed in jail and then we have the tail of 'The Scarlet Letter' to bring the guilty to ultimate shame and now does anyone go to jail for it today? Are there even laws on the books making it illegal? How about fornication? Only when it involves a minor. Will the evolution of sex now grow to include homosexuality but in this case those who believe it is wrong and immoral? Instead of going to jail for practicing homosexuality what about going to jail for believing it is wrong or denying business dealings such as wedding deals and situations that deal directly with homosexuality and not just the individual? Will America truly come this far to practice such a thing? What do you suppose the Founding Father's of this country would think of this movement?

I have been pondering this in my mind based on the strong and rabid opinion of the pro homosexual parade on the march.

What do you think?

John

DEADn wrote:
Instead of going to jail for practicing homosexuality what about going to jail for believing it is wrong or denying business dealings such as wedding deals and situations that deal directly with homosexuality and not just the individual? Will America truly come this far to practice such a thing? What do you suppose the Founding Father's of this country would think of this movement?

I’ve always wondered if a man is going to rant and rave about anything in the pulpit, why they don’t rant and rave against husbands who slap their wives around, putting bruises on them and intimating them and their children. Because I’m quite sure like the Israelites in Egypt, these wives and children have called out to God for help on a continual basis and yet get none from the church.

Please don’t take this personally, John, I'm not attacking you but this topic is near and dear to my heart and also I’m just asking anyone in general, not just you.

Back to preaching against homosexuality: One day there probably will be a bigotry jail but my question is... is it the wisdom of God for men & women of God to be thrown in there?

Let me explain. I knew a man (still know him), he worked for a company 20 years ago and was on his soap box (while on company time) about how homosexuality is a sin and they are going to hell. Well, he didn’t know that the supervisor was a lesbian and she fired him. *** Here's my point: Sadly, his whole testimony became about how he suffered at the hands of a lesbian instead of admitting that he was the one in err and wasn’t doing his job. Therefore, his wife and children had to suffer at the hands of homosexuals too... what was the world coming to??

Brother, my point is (badly explained), that God might had gotten him that job to convert that lesbian but because he had "a cause" to preach against "it" instead of preaching Jesus & b/c of it was fired. How many of us are going to stand before God and say, "Boy, God, you’da been proud of me, I stood my ground with those nasty homosexuals (or fill in the blank anything else), for You.” And Christ says, "But that wasn’t the way I wanted it done; if you would have just asked me, I would have told you.”

I’m trying to say that there is another way to look at this homosexuality issue instead of constantly fighting against it and kicking against the thorns (like Paul did with the church) and possibly being thrown into a bigotry jail. Just my two cents brother, since you did ask "What do you think?" :)

God bless you,
Lisa

The preaching against anything is only useful if it is a call to repentance with an explanation of the fullness of the gospel, OR if the Holy Spirit of God moves upon someone prophetically to speak judgment ..... which always includes the rejection of Jesus as the reason for that judgment, and the warning or condemnation (Lord, help us) is "against" some behavior or way (I.e., homosexuality) that is the catalyst for that rejection. I read and re-read Revelation 9:21.

Lysa
I hear what you are saying and I hear the frustration in your words. I often wondered if the more Conservative a church was the more you might find some of what you are expressing here because it tends to be the nature of Conservatives to do such things. Holding tight to rights and wrongs with not alot of room for grace in between. Only holding to the letter of the Law while quenching the Spirit.

Christians get so caught up in the badness of sin that we often neglect the grace of love and don't understand how to relate both of them to individual in a balanced way according to the Spirit of God. It is usually balanced heavily to one side or the others. It tends to be human nature.

On the heels of your comments it causes me to wonder something. Let's say the church tones down the preaching of sin of homosexuality and begins to preach on the issues of what you expressed. I am wondering if the church would change or stay the same? Would it get better, get worse or just be stagnate? Yet what about the role of prayer in all of this and a revival of conviction of sin from the least to the greatest?

When it comes to homosexuality many like to use the scenario of Sodom because in that story there is emphasis of homosexuality but God doesn't say judgement was because of such practice. It was because there was no righteousness in the land yet what caused that? With the march going on in America today and the march of Atheism, the silence of adultery, fornication, fight of abortion, lying and so forth I often wonder how America compares to Sodom in terms of righteousness and unrighteousness and what the church must do to shine the light in a dark place?

Finally, I have had it said to me by some Atheists that prayer doesn't work because for it to work it takes one person doing something for another person rather than it being an actual move of God by request. Seems only an act of God, without human intervention (just solely prayer) is needed to wake us up from the march of unrighteousness all around us. I often feel as if I am deep in quicksand these days seeking God in my heart of how to properly deal with the darkness around me without the appearance of some kind of religious cloak.

John

"I often feel as if I am deep in quicksand these days seeking God in my heart of how to properly deal with the darkness around me without the appearance of some kind of religious cloak."

Me too.

Well.....John was thrown into prison for telling Herod he was doing wrong in talking his brother's wife - lost his head in the process. Never read anywhere that John was rebuked for speaking out of turn.

To be silent to save your skin will mean you may stifle the leading of the Holy Spirit but then to rant and rage about something continuously could be counterproductive as well.

It is best to be bold and speak as the HS leads, even if it means confronting evil by speaking against it.

Confronting is not a popular concept unless it is done by the atheists - they can do it without challenge but do not allow a Christian the same courtesy.

Nothing makes sense anymore...

Being that my post is dealing with the homosexual march one area that troubles me and I am not sure if it should or not is the scientific studies part. I am opposed to homosexuality, even if I didn't believe in God, because I think it is an immoral practice and it just doesn't fit the human body. Then we have what the bible says about it. Yet some are trying to use scientific evidence to show that either there is a gay gene involved or may there is an unbalanced amount of estrogen or testosterone in the system but I don't know how that part would play a part in sexuality. There is also the emotional part of it as well.

Is there smoke in mirrors in scientific studies and how can a person flush them out? To me this is the greatest obstacle in the proof of whether homosexuality is born in people or not.

I find, for myself, the great spiritual battle over this revival of sin is the prayer closet vs. the evidence brought forth to support homosexual is normal or a part of the individuals make up. When evidence seems to be there is it really evidence? And if the evidence is true than a Christian in wrong? The bible is then wrong. But does the apparently evidence show genuine truth and how to flush it out.

In the meantime this avenue of darkness is flooding over the land and in time all 50 states will allow homosexual marriage. It will come down to whoever yells the longest for the most amount of time. In this case it won't be the Christians. What topics do Christians march for anyway? Usually it is just on abortion.

I live in Florida and it is my belief that homosexual will happen but not with our currently governor. I think if Charlie Crist is elected it will happen. Then I imagine people dancing around the mountain as they did when Moses received the 10 Commandments. Just a touch situation!

John

I believe there is nothing wrong in speaking about a particular sin like Homosexuality. I agree it is also a serious sin like many other serious sins in the society. I see strip clubs operating openly in the streets of US (not in the streets of Pagan country like India though) is also a serious sin. I have heard preachers stand outside such clubs and speak against such practices ending up in Jail due to the complaint given by the club. If we are saying preaching against Homosexuality is wrong then these poor brothers who suffer for the cause of Gospel is also wrong.

First and foremost, people here who say we should speak only about the Gospel and not talk about any sin does not know what Complete Gospel is. If you visit a doctor who is just willing to give a treatment without telling you what the disease is; then will you be willing to continue the treatment? If the answer is No then how can you expect someone to just spread the sacrifice of Jesus, which is a treatment to sin without talking about the actual sin in society which is like the disease. A good doctor will first expose the disease in you and then start the treatment. A complete Gospel will always expose the inner motive of men's heart before talking about the Grace of God to overcome sin (1 Cor 14).

People are not born Homosexual, if it is so then there will never be a former homosexual. Show me a former Asian, a former Black etc, then I will agree that Homosexual is genetic. Unlike race which is something you are born into that can never be changed, Homosexuality is just an acquired behavior that men can resist by grace of God if they are willing to repent. So speaking against homosexuality is not speaking against a particular race.

People are not born Homosexual, if it is so then there will never be a former homosexual. Show me a former Asian, a former Black etc, then I will agree that Homosexual is genetic. Unlike race which is something you are born into that can never be changed, Homosexuality is just an acquired behavior that men can resist by grace of God if they are willing to repent. So speaking against homosexuality is not speaking against a particular race.

This is where the argument lies. I think this explanation is too simple for the issue because there are some who seemed to swing this way at a younger age.
I went to school with a guy who was a bit effeminate and later in life he came out as homosexual. It caused me to wonder what exactly happened to cause this.

I used to have a friend who was a worship leader in a small country church. He was 17 when I met him. I was 22. Only music he listened to was praise and worship music like integrity music, Hosanna and so forth. He would 'preach to the angels' in his bedroom and he was an avid Rod Parsley fan. He confessed to me that he struggled with homosexual feelings and said he knew it was wrong but wasn't sure how to deal with them. He told me not to say anything to anyone so I did and he never dated anyone. I split ties with his because he became rather controlling in his attitude. Later on I found out he came out as homosexual and I spoke to him one time after that. I found him on facebook and he is still true to form. Then I ask the question, how did this really happen? He knew it was wrong yet his body 'forced' him to that general direction. This is what I say it isn't so easy to say it is a decision. I have an uncle who is similar to this. He sings in his churches choir which happens to be a gay church but he isn't sexually active.

John

John giving into homosexual sin is no different then giving into the sin of fornication(sex before marriage) or adultery, or lust. how many times i have heard someone say i just couldn't help myself. in a way i guess that is true as long as someone lives apart from Christ sin reigns in their life and rules them. all men fall short, all have sinned, so its kind of ironic that someone who is born with sin ruling in them and eventually gives into that sin says they were born that way, i always say actually we are are born that way, sinners! That is why we need Jesus so much, He alone is the answer to the sin in our lives. your issue with those you speak with and your uncle is they don't want you to call being a homosexual sin, guess what most who commit adultery don't like that word either and no one wants to be called a liar, or a thief, or a fornicator, or prideful, glutton, bitter, hate filled, unforgiving ect. as for your uncle, so he says he struggles with being gay, i have a brother who struggles with porn, both are sin and neither will have freedom from that sin apart from Jesus. it is a decision, all sin is a choice, it just so happens that those who are still in the world and under bondage to it will fall under temptation and those who live for Christ, born again and forgiven of their sins will flee from it when temptations arise. talk to anyone who is lost and steeped in sin and they will justify their behavior and call you names for ever saying anything against what they do. they are deceived and they don't want you to pull away the curtain so the light and truth can shine in. each of us has dark places that we struggle with but the only freedom anyone will ever have is in Christ Jesus, by bringing that sin into the light and laying it at the cross. Homosexuality wants to be recognized as acceptable, they want to feel good about the things they are doing, its no different then the guilty adulterer excusing their sin, or the fornicator excuses their sin, or the glutton, or the liar, ect. no one who is lost in sin wants that pointed out to them, they want to feel good about what they do but Jesus has a standard and its His way only.

rdg

John giving into homosexual sin is no different then giving into the sin of fornication(sex before marriage) or adultery, or lust. how many times i have heard someone say i just couldn't help myself. in a way i guess that is true as long as someone lives apart from Christ sin reigns in their life and rules them. all men fall short, all have sinned, so its kind of ironic that someone who is born with sin ruling in them and eventually gives into that sin says they were born that way, i always say actually we are are born that way, sinners!

Sister there are few brothers here who placed a similar argument as yours. This argument is not true. Homosexuality is different from the temptation to commit adultery.

To begin with sexual attraction is a gift from God. God did not put this desire in man and women by mistake. He has put it so that we may produce children in a God intended way which is after marriage. Now a temptation is something that causes us to utilize a good thing in an ungodly way or a way in which God does not want us to use it. For example the temptation to satisfy this sexual desire with a women I am not married to is ungodly. When I yield to this temptation I sin. We all have this temptation inside us that rebels against the commands given by God through Flesh.

Eating a fruit is a good thing but to eat a fruit that God has forbidden is a temptation to which Eve yielded to.

Now homosexuality is different from such temptation because it does not include utilizing a good gift in a ungodly way. Homosexuality itself is ungodly. There is nothing good here that is being utilized in a ungodly way. The system itself is evil. So one cannot compare homosexuality with adultery and tell that they are same temptation of flesh. I hope you now understand the difference.

I can give another example, No one can say temptation to murder is also like adultery. No they are not. You murder someone because of your hatred not because you are born with a temptation to murder.

Irrespective of whatever science says we should always believe that people are not born homosexual. The moment we yield to it, we are making Homosexuality sound normal. People become homosexual because of,

1. environmental factors like their upbringing. Single parenting where the child is exposed to one sex of parent but unaware of another sex. Sexual abuse in Childhood etc. I think with increase in Children identifying themselves has homosexuals there is also an increase in these kids abusing other kids there by spreading this evil.

2. Perversion; there is a law of diminishing return. When a person starts yielding to sexual temptations, it will keep pulling them into different depths as they get lesser returns of pleasure from familiar acts. Hence it also leads them to try homosexuality. Many homosexuals are people who just wanted to try it once and got hooked up. And later they just keep thinking that they are born to have such sexual act.

John none of the examples you have put here discredit my argument against people being born homosexuals. There are many homosexuals who come out of this life style with or without knowing Christ. Just like how there are many drug addicts who have denounced this addiction by either coming to Jesus or by some other means. So to say that I am born to live this homosexual life style, I am only attracted to have sex with same sex is not true. No one is born with same sex attraction.

I went to school with a guy who was a bit effeminate and later in life he came out as homosexual. It caused me to wonder what exactly happened to cause this.

I know so many effeminate men who have married women and have kids now. They did not become homosexuals. Effeminate is a hormonal imbalance that makes a man to have more womanish behaviours. This is not a reason for someone to say that he is attracted only to men because he has womanish desires. There can be few cases who fell for this deception. So your logic of relating hormonal imbalance to homosexuality is not always true or proven. Even Science cannot prove homosexuality is related to Hormonal imbalance because they see many men with similar imbalance but not homosexual. That is why science is looking much deeper into genes to find a solution. If you do not believe me at lease believe science.

He confessed to me that he struggled with homosexual feelings and said he knew it was wrong but wasn't sure how to deal with them.

Did he tell you how he got exposed to homosexuality? How do you assume that he had this attraction for same sex from childhood? There could clearly be a sexual abuse of some sort in childhood that exposed him to this temptation. Or he could have got it by observing any of his friend who practiced it. Many kids have this habit of copying their friends. Again this does not prove that men are not born homosexual.

sree my point is(sorry if i was not clear) homosexuality is sin, and sins is sin we are all born into sin and will sin that's why we need Jesus. Homosexuality is not a more difficult sin to overcome then lust, or hatred, or any other. it is difficult to over come for those who struggle in it but it is still sin. the homosexual community does not want it to be referred to as such nor do they want to be considered to be in sin for how they choose to live.

thanks for your post.
rdg

Did he tell you how he got exposed to homosexuality? How do you assume that he had this attraction for same sex from childhood? There could clearly be a sexual abuse of some sort in childhood that exposed him to this temptation. Or he could have got it by observing any of his friend who practiced it. Many kids have this habit of copying their friends. Again this does not prove that men are not born homosexual.

He told me he had homosexual feelings and desires. I never said anything about his childhood. I was introduced to him when he was 17. He was in high school and I met him while being invited to this church by my aunt. We bonded after 2 months when I had to bring him home after a service.

His dad left the family when he was younger. His mom married another man and they were smokers. He closed the vent in his bedroom so he couldn't smell the smoke. He didn't get along with his stepdad at all but had to live with it.

He was a worship leader in this church and always dressed in the suit and tie. I don't know of anything in his life that would indicate is desire for homosexuality. He is somewhat of an enigma to be as a result of this. His attitude still stays with him. One of sarcasm and he will tell you what is on his mind and being demanding with it.

How he came out..... I was working with a man who was a preacher. His wife worked for a cable company and the conversation got over to someone who was gay in which she worked with. I asked the name because I knew this ex friend worked there as well. Apparently he came out at work or was at least bragging to everyone at his job that he was homosexual. I kept my word that I would say nothing to anyway. I got his phone number through this co workers wife and talked to him for 30 minutes. He was as hurt as a teenager girl who was crushed and brokenhearted because his boyfriend broke up with him. If his attitude was different I would have stayed friends with him but he became very controlling so I cut him off.

sree my point is(sorry if i was not clear) homosexuality is sin, and sins is sin we are all born into sin and will sin that's why we need Jesus. Homosexuality is not a more difficult sin to overcome then lust, or hatred, or any other. it is difficult to over come for those who struggle in it but it is still sin. the homosexual community does not want it to be referred to as such nor do they want to be considered to be in sin for how they choose to live.

I agree people can overcome homosexuality by coming to Jesus just like anyother sin. But the question is are people born as homosexual. The answer is no. In other words are men born with sexual desires for other men or women born with sexual desires for other women. The answer is NO. Paul calls such homosexual desires as unnatural in Romans 1, which means they are not naturally inside man. A natural desire for a man is for a women and a women is for a man.

John thank you for taking time to answer.

by Sree on 2014/2/28 12:41:44

sree my point is(sorry if i was not clear) homosexuality is sin, and sins is sin we are all born into sin and will sin that's why we need Jesus. Homosexuality is not a more difficult sin to overcome then lust, or hatred, or any other. it is difficult to over come for those who struggle in it but it is still sin. the homosexual community does not want it to be referred to as such nor do they want to be considered to be in sin for how they choose to live.

I agree people can overcome homosexuality by coming to Jesus just like anyother sin. But the question is are people born as homosexual. The answer is no. In other words are men born with sexual desires for other men or women born with sexual desires for other women. The answer is NO. Paul calls such homosexual desires as unnatural in Romans 1, which means they are not naturally inside man. A natural desire for a man is for a women and a women is for a man.
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that was what i was saying no one is born being homosexual. homosexuality is sin one chooses to give into over the course of their life just like any other sin. we are all born with the desire for self and will sin some choose one an other choose another but sin is sin and the only way to overcome and be set free is through Jesus. i think we are saying the same thing because i agree no one is born gay.

rdg

Homosexuality is a perversion that I believe does go beyond mere temptation. While it is true that a homosexual person can repent and be forgiven by the same grace that any other sinner can receive, the sin of homosexuality is particularly deceptive and the bondage exceptionally severe. Paul tells us in Romans about this sin in particular.

 18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. note 20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: note 21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. note 26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;note note 29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: note 32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I have never known a homosexual, and I know several as we all probably do, that did not evidence a particularly strong deception and who was not very full of bitterness. Romans 1 points this out. Many who have chosen this lifestyle have done so out of great abuse and great hurt. Many have been led into this lifestyle from an absolute rejection of God. Many have been led there as they have opened themselves up to pornography that is increasingly graphic in nature. Most all of them, I believe, are held in bondage to evil spirits. None are born so.

Our hearts should weep with godly compassion and desire to see them free of bondage. Yet, we cannot agree that their lifestyle is anything other than a choice of the will and a sin that holds them in bondage. Yet, to say so well put us at odds with the society around us.

But we are not the first to face this. When Paul wrote Romans, homosexuality was, as far as I understand it, very prevalent in the Greek and Roman society as well.

In general, we do not need to stand on a street corner and rail against this. The homosexual, deep down, knows he is on sin and in bondage. Romans also tells us this. I think we can try to influence our government to uphold righteous laws. But we are most effective as we follow the leading of the holy spirit in ministering individually to people in sin to bring them to repentance and reconciliation written God.