Is Sermon Index Forbidding the Examination of Teachings? Please clarify.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

Hi Greg,

In the Bill Gothard thread (where we were examining his teachings), you shut it down and said no more discussion about his teachings.

In a post that I wrote and you deleted, I asked you if this meant that SI was forbidding the examination of all Christian teachings?

Because you are shutting down discussion on Bill Gothard's teachings, I think it is important that you tell us what this means regarding other teachings? Is the message that you are sending that all teachings will get the same protection that Bill's teachings now enjoy. Would you please clarify your stance regarding the examination of Christian teaching. Is SI taking the stance that examination of teachings are now equal to slander?

S

Sidewalk Mar 7, 2014

It seems to me that since Bill Gothard's ministry and the things he taught have affected millions of people, there should be some room for active discussion.

Many of the ministries and preachers represented and featured on SI affect people as any inspiring sermon should. But somehow, Gothard's ministry pulled on strings inside many of us never knew we had, and some of the effects were devastating.

Cults come and go, strange doctrines do some damage and hopefully run into a wall of truth that blunts their effect. But Gothard used good scripture to make his points and wise believers often gained good insight for their lives- I feel I am among those. Others heard the same things and went shipwreck.

All in all, it seems this is a valid area for discussion. Like any group therapy concept, conversations between the blessed and the hurting have value when humble hearts prevail.

I must admit to being glad I don't have to make moderator decisions!

Y

Yeshuasboy Mar 7, 2014

I'm a bit curious to know what brother K.Daniel would say concerning this, being I believe it was Bill who first brought brother Keith to America.

Let us do unto others as we would appreciate them doing unto us. If I was in Bill's shoes I would appreciate the saints praying for me.

Without the grace of God we would all fall into terrible sins, and we would all be cast into outer darkness then the lake of fire.

P

PaulWest Mar 7, 2014

All in all, it seems this is a valid area for discussion. Like any group therapy concept, conversations between the blessed and the hurting have value when humble hearts prevail.

There is a thin, almost imperceptible line between "discussion" and "slander", the former often being a cunning quise for indulging in the latter. My question would be, why bring it up at all here? SermonIndex is essentially a classic revival sermon archive and not a Christian gossip lounge where links from unsubstantiated sources are cut and pasted to fuel healthy discussions.

What if Gothard is innocent of the charges? How do you know he is not? What business is it of ours to "expose" this ordeal at all? By taking the time and effort to expose other ministries and engage in gossip-hounding we actually expose our own lack and deficiencies in our personal walks with Christ. We are not wise by acting on allegations being repeated by others. And, most importantly, we certainly are not emulating the One whom we claim to follow, who did not even speak the name of "Judas" publically as His betrayer.

I must admit to being glad I don't have to make moderator decisions!

It's not easy at times. But I must stand with Greg on this issue and ask others to refrain from bringing these types of "exposure" topics to the forum. Even if the claims are true, it is not our place to expose men. God will do it Himself, in His own way. We who stand ought to instead pray with fear and trembling for those who have fallen and take care to judge ourselves, knowing we too are just as viable to fall if not for God's grace. But to blow a trumpet in the marketplace (establish an exposure thread in the forum) and alert everyone to a brother's fall - this is just wrong and evidences spiritual immaturity.

M

makrothumia Mar 7, 2014

I wonder how many still read the book of Proverbs?

Have you considered the fall of the author? He was involved in forbidden idolatrous marriages, amassed great quantities of wealth for himself, built elaborate palaces for his many wives and drove the people under him by hard labor to accomplish all this.

How many still bother to read the teachings of such a man who married 700 wives and 300 concubines?
Could the teachings of such a man be any better than the man himself?

In addition to this, just look at how Solomon's teachings on the use of the rod has caused many children to be beaten by parents applying the rod of correction. Was it not Solomon who taught that the "blueness of a wound" purges away evil?

If we are consistent with our judgments, all of Solomon's teachings should be fair game for our criticism also.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

I think that is fine if you don't want his teachings to be examined. I and other brothers, I am sure will hold you accountable to give others the same protections over their teachings as you are giving Bill.

You keep rephrasing the examination of Bill Gothard's teachings as gossip and slander, (which could be construed as an accusation in itself) but no one is talking about that pending case with his board or what he is accused of doing. We are talking about examining his teachings just as you have allowed many teachings to be examined on SI.

He has enjoyed protection against scrutiny of his teachings for years and this has not only been an unloving disservice to the Body of Christ but to Bill, himself.

So, I expect no more scrutiny of charismatic teachers such as Joel Osteen, (who I don't ascribe to), or Mark Driscoll, or word of faith, or Calvinists, Arminians, etc. Look at your own history of all the teachings that have been scrutinized and think about the message you are sending. I will remind you of your decision and hold you accountable. Be careful that your news articles don't cross that fine line and give the impression of gossip or slander. If you don't like being held accountable you will have to ban me. If you have nothing to fear you will welcome the accountability.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

He has enjoyed protection against scrutiny of his teachings for years and this has not only been an unloving disservice to the Body of Christ but to Bill, himself.
So, I expect no more scrutiny of charismatic teachers such as Joel Osteen, (who I don't ascribe to), or Mark Driscoll, or word of faith, or Calvinists, Arminians, etc. Look at your own history of all the teachings that have been scrutinized and think about the message you are sending. I will remind you of your decision and hold you accountable. Be careful that your news articles don't cross that fine line and give the impression of gossip or slander. If you don't like being held accountable you will have to ban me.

Brother,

In general we have always discouraged the element of trying to look at all that is wrong and trying to focus on what is good. So for example instead of criticizing all the preachers that "do not" preach repentance we have encouraged and promoted preachers that "do" preach repentance. We do have reservations for many of the "so-called" ministries on the internet that simply expose everything they think is wrong. This ends up being much of Christianity. There is very little they leave un-touched by if this same critical look would be put upon themselves they would greatly fall short and one could write an expose on the author itself. In short we do not want to promote this type of thinking or spirit. Of course there is much wrong out in Christendom and we do not support the idea of closing our eyes to all that is wrong.

There is much slander against all the featured speakers on SermonIndex if you search the internet so should we allow these type of discussions on them? No. There is a reasonable sense of where discussions on doctrines of godly fruitful preachers becomes to the place of undermining the very speaker himself and his walk with God. We are never called to judge "all others" but in our own local context or people we listen to we are to "judge" and discern ourselves. This does not mean this "judging" should be done publicly rather it would be more wise to only address some issues in the local church context.

Of course it can be fruitful for "some" who have already wept, loved and done something for the love of body of Christ to speak against greater doctrinal problems by other speakers who are in the public eyes. Each man will stand or fall before God in that day with their true heart intentions to speak against and demean a speaker for the good of the rest of Christendom or if it was an unhealthy motive in their heart though the speaker or doctrine could be wrong.

"We are talking about examining his teachings just as you have allowed many teachings to be examined on SI. " - I believe in context with the current questions and problems with that ministry that it is unhealthy breeding groups for believers to not only examine teachings but to start to undermine years of fruitful discipleship in young peoples lives. If there was not a "scandal" good or bad outcome we would not be discussed or "desiring" to expose all that we think is wrong of this man's teachings.

Again we want to encourage a different purpose and spirit on SermonIndex. I would encourage saints to review this very short articles:

Principle 25 ”“ Not Judging Others (pdf)
http://img.gospelfellowships.net/pdf/principle25.pdf

Principle 26 ”“ Having a Right Doctrine but Wrong Spirit (pdf)
http://img.gospelfellowships.net/pdf/principle26.pdf

Principle 27 ”“ The Priority of Love (pdf)
http://img.gospelfellowships.net/pdf/principle27.pdf

Principle 28 ”“ Examine Yourself and Correction in Love (pdf)
http://img.gospelfellowships.net/pdf/principle28.pdf

Principle 29 ”“ Being Rich in Mercy (pdf)
http://img.gospelfellowships.net/pdf/principle29.pdf

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

Greg, when did examining teachings become slander? Don't you have to take that on a case by case basis?

I understand that you don't want your site to engage in examination of teachings. Let's just leave it at that. But, please update your rules and regulations to state clearly that SI is not a site that allows examination of teachings.

R

rainydaygirl Mar 7, 2014

edited:

i just found the other thread and realized i should have posted my comment there. so i am going to move it now. sorry about that (smile)

rdg

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

Greg, when did examining teachings become slander? Don't you have to take that on a case by case basis?
I understand that you don't want your site to engage in examination of teachings. Let's just leave it at that. But, please update your rules and regulations to state clearly that SI is not a site that allows examination of teachings.

Dear brother,

In light of all that I just wrote in the last post I hope you can understand why we at times must be wise in our discussions of other christian leaders publicly and yes be very careful of what we accuse and post to articles that under the guise of "freedom of speech" criticize and undermine a brothers ministry. Many do this and start a blog to expose a teacher, teaching, or just a Christian leader who they dislike and want to bring their character under question.

I did say in "light" of the news item about Bill Gothard that yes we must show wisdom if this is the time to discuss and bring into question some teachings of this ministry and brother. My decision is that it is not a wise time and that it would be wise to leave these considerations to each brother or sisters private reading and discerning. We must be in more of the place of prayer for this ministry, it is not perfect and I have things I disagree with it as well as "many" other ministries but in no way do I have a desire to expose or bring into question all these ministries because of a few things I disagree with.

Towards the community rules: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13

1. JESUS CHRIST THE HEAD
2. BEING TEACHABLE
3. HAVING A PERSONAL AGENDA
4. SERVANTHOOD
5. SPEAKING WITH GENTLENESS
6. SELF-PROMOTION
7. SLANDERING OTHERS
8. DIVISIONS AND QUARRELLING
9. RESPECTING AUTHORITY
10. POSTING AND EDITING
11. PRAYING BEFORE YOU POST
12. CONFESSION

I believe it would do well for us all to review them from time to time. I always see the Lord working on my heart and life in some of these areas as I post and share on SermonIndex as a moderator and realize my many mistakes in my intentions, heart-attitudes and character as I post. May our discussions be pleasing to the Lord and may we realize that many read these posts all over the world that we would have a testimony for the Lord in the way we love and serve and treat each other as Christ even Himself.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

As you wish, brother.

May the Lord continue to bless you, and all the moderators and the ministry of SI.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2014

Makrothumia,

We are talking about twisting scriptures, not the scriptures themselves. And, we are not talking about a man, but a man's teachings.

Your analogy doesn't work.

By the way, there is no such word as blueness in my bible .

N

noone Mar 8, 2014

Nevermind

A

a-servant Mar 8, 2014

I fully respect the policies to lock threads in "normal times", it's just that we are not in normal times anymore, we are now in the end of days, so basically it's the last possiblity to speak out. Because of that shortness of time, and regarding my own publications I do not put restrictions anymore to uphold any image of "formal correctness" of the publisher - it's something that means nothing to me anymore, the truth is much more important than what people think about the publisher. I have to be acceptable to Jesus Christ - not man.

Contrary to what I said above there is however another consideration to all of this. One elder that I know to understand the exact moment in time we are in, simply by reading the prophetic timeline he found in the psalms sent out his view of what the psalms contain for this year. He said the 'warning to the wicked' have ended. Because they already found their place where they want to be, and nobody can change that anymore. So we are wasting time to tell them their faults. It's in line with this verse:

Rev 22:11 Â He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

To the other locked news thread I would like to express my gratitude to brother Neil: Lately everything you write is absolutely something I would express myself, if I haven't done so in the past already. You put it in much nicer expressions however that have this graceful poetic quality as well.

Without the heavy content you publish it sounded sometimes too emotional in the past. But now it makes perfect sense, because your content is so deep now that it must be balanced with a sweet tender form of expression. I wished i reach that level of articulation while speaking about these things that demand so much understanding. Neil, you have grown this and last year. Bless you, brother.

M

MrBillPro Mar 8, 2014

by a-servant...To the other locked news thread I would like to express my gratitude to brother Neil: Lately everything you write is absolutely something I would express myself, if I haven't done so in the past already. You put it in much nicer expressions however that have this graceful poetic quality as well.
Without the heavy content you publish it sounded sometimes too emotional in the past. But now it makes perfect sense, because your content is so deep now that it must be balanced with a sweet tender form of expression. I wished i reach that level of articulation while speaking about these things that demand so much understanding. Neil, you have grown this and last year. Bless you, brother.

I totally agree, when a man speaks so deep, with such a graceful heart, and sweet spirit, I am all ears.

G

ginnyrose Mar 8, 2014

About Neil....

One thing about Neil is he is by birth and heritage from the line of Abraham which gives him a perspective on news that us Gentiles generally miss plus there are life experiences. Enjoy his insights.

Greg, I sure wish you would have another segment on this forum where people could discuss issues you do not want to appear on these forums - Bill Gothard's resignation, Ukraine, examining doctrines that are popularized by famous teachers, etc. Make it so only registered posters can access if that would help any. I find it very helpful to read other peoples reactions to these situations. It is true one can go to these other websites but unless you are a regular there you do not know the people which puts a cramp on communication. There is a lot to be said in discussing issues with people you feel like you know.

My two cents on this beautiful morning! God bless.

R

rainydaygirl Mar 8, 2014

by ginnyrose on 2014/3/8 11:47:58

About Neil....

One thing about Neil is he is by birth and heritage from the line of Abraham which gives him a perspective on news that us Gentiles generally miss plus there are life experiences. Enjoy his insights.--

i was really enjoying neil's thoughts on the affairs in Russia. if Greg is not comfortable having him post his insights maybe Neil might consider writing a blog. i agree with what the others said on the other thread he writes in such a way that it really shows his love for Jesus and others.

rdg

sermonindex Mar 8, 2014

i was really enjoying neil's thoughts on the affairs in Russia. if Greg is not comfortable having him post his insights maybe Neil might consider writing a blog. i agree with what the others said on the other thread he writes in such a way that it really shows his love for Jesus and others.

Brethren,

Many things niel wrote where fine but there were quotes from other articles that he posted that had very vulgar terms describing the president and other figures. My wife even reacted to it and felt it was wrong. Neil also admitted to some of the uncharitable tones not in his writing but the writing he quoted. In the end we want to ensure that we are not having SI as a place where conspiracy theory and allusions like that are posted. We are not condemning Niel or any other brother by stating these things, I hope that is clear in the saints minds.

Perhaps for some brethren to start blogs (that are not promoted on the website) would be a way for them to promote these things with 100% liberty. The Lord has called us on SermonIndex to help promote the Church which is not an idealism that controls or desires a nation under its control. We are a people of God (the Church) which are from every nation group but are separate and unto the Lord Himself.

Nations come and fall the Lord's people and His kingdom are forever. Amen.

A

a-servant Mar 9, 2014

Amen Greg. I think we are perfectly alright with this.

For the bloggers: Right now blogging is what still works,
however because i was in marketing once i discovered
access to bigger audiences recently. Like to give you an
example. This month i'm mailing to real estate agents,
totally several thousand emails. Yes, it's about a service
for them that pays my bills.

And i have access to 'opportunity seekers' where i can
mail whatever i want. This would be an chance to send
also christian messages. It will stick out, because they
dont expect that. The audience is a mind boggeling
8.8 millions per month.

So if you write things like Neil does, send it to me via
fastmedia (at) fastmail.net - and i will mail it for you.
Yes, you can include a link to your site or blog.
Please think about the quality of your subject line,
this will be the one that makes them open your mail,
or not at all. Its the most important component of it.

I put my actions where my mouth is, so i invite you
to start your 'last days email ministry'. As i said,
the wicked will not listen to it anymore, however
the ones that never heard the good news, might
still respond to it. Locally where i am right now
people still come to Christ, so my ministry has
shifted to that: Spread the Word all around the world
to absolute newbies that never heard it before.

One thing i have to say about what Greg said about
"conspiracy theories" - I only invite people of "ripe age"
to send me articles like that, i believe Neil is about my age
group, I am personally 57 right now. So i will filter that
based on experience and understanding the Holy Spirit
gave to me. That's not a line young people should follow.

I think in terms of Rick Wiles and his guests in that kind
of news items. Thats a good ministry because it wakes
people up to reality. There are no more theories, now they
have become our daily reality. So if you catch that, and can write, send me a mail, and dont forget time is short, so be
serious,souls are hanging in the balance right now.

brother George

R

rainydaygirl Mar 9, 2014

greg i should have clarified when i mentioned Neils writing, i was not only referring to the thread that was locked. i have read several of his post as well as Franks and been very blessed by them. Neil writing does show he has a deep rooted love for Jesus and i appreciate that as i know you do to(smile)

i never thought you were condemning neil in any way.

rdg