There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

Some people see Romans 7 as a regenerate man trying to live under the law, while others see it as an unregenerate man trying to please God by the Law and the only thing he knows, "in the flesh".

Here is the key as I see it:

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

"As long as he liveth". As long as a man lives the law has dominion over him.

In other words, the law will never die and the only way to be free of it is for us to die.

Here is the next part of the puzzle. How do we die and keep on living? Well, Jesus brought that provision for us. We can be free from the law by identifying with Christ in death, and raised to life by His resurrection life, too.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We become dead to the law by the body of Christ.

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And we walk in newness of life after we have died with Christ.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

And that is how we are delivered from the law. By the death and resurrection of Christ.

The final key is that we must be IN CHRIST to be freed from the law and the condemnation of it. That is what Romans 6:4 is all about.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN CHRIST Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I would be careful about using non-Biblical terms. Sin Nature is not a Biblical term as it was introduced in the NIV.

Let's look at a couple of verses in the NIV.
1. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, (Col 2:11)

Sinful nature seems to be in the past.

2. So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Rm 7:25b)

Sinful nature seems to be present.

3. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. (Gal 5:24)

Sinful nature seems to be in the past again.

4. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (Rm 13:14)

Sinful nature is present, again.

5. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. (Rm 7:5)

Sinful nature is in the past, again.

6. Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Co 5:5)

What's the problem with the NIV?

Paul is actually talking about our flesh (sarx). The word "flesh” refers to our physical bodies or our sensual nature. It’s that part of us that we would describe as natural as opposed to spiritual. Our bodies and our natural senses were given to us by God; we need them to live and to function. Theologians who say that our flesh is inherently evil actually are in agreement with the Roman Catholic Church. Of course we stop short of saying that Jesus was evil (as he had "put on" flesh, too). Yes, the body has appetites but that does not make it sinful. Unnatural appetites (lust, gluttony) are sinful, but being thirsty, or wanting to eat is not sinful. Desiring to lay with your wife and love her is also a God-given desire and there is nothing wrong with that.

Everything God made is good and that includes the flesh. Our bodies express the righteousness of God as He said in the garden, "...it is good". The problems come when we walk after the flesh, when we choose to live in the lower realm of the natural/flesh rather than the higher realm of the spirit. As a sinner, I had no choice in this matter, but as a child of God, born of the spirit, I can choose.

I can walk "after the flesh" or "after the Spirit". Even Jesus had to walk after the Spirit and not give into "walking after the urges, appetites, dictates of the flesh"

This is one of the biggest indications for me how the Roman Catholic Church has made inroads into the Protestant translations of Bibles. Of course, it is in their best interests (in bringing us all back to Rome) to align our doctrines with theirs.

Romans 6, 7, and 8 does not necessarily have to be a chronological biography of Paul's walk. It could easily be 7,6,8. I see Paul in 7 actually flashing back to what it was like being in the flesh, everyday with no hope of getting free of the law.

The false Catholic doctrine of the sinful nature has brought a lot of confusion, hopelessness and defeat into the church.

The Lusts of the Flesh versus the Law of Sin and Death

I recall whilst fasting with Martin my former partner in the gospel one time.

Having finished the fast, Martin was momentarily so overwhelmed by the demand from his stomach, that he was literally shaking as he tried to prepare some food. Whilst we were in the Spirit, in a mind to fast and pray, we had absolutely no difficulty with fasting. The moment we ended the fast, the demand from the body was really amazing. I recall standing their in near fits of laughter as I watched Martin setting fire to the frying pan in his uncontrolled efforts to fry an egg. The serious point of course, is to recognise that once he had decided to eat, his body went mad for food. Think Esau!

At the heart of all sin there is a choosing to sin, but there is also a power of sin as well.

This is essentially what Paul is saying in Romans when he speaks about keeping the law of God. He agrees in his inner man that the law of God is good, and he wants to keep the law in agreement with the knowledge that the law of God is good. Then Paul explains that in experience he finds that instead of doing the thing he wants to do, he ends up doing the very thing he doesn’t want to do. In the end Paul says "I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7:23”“25

Eating after a fast cannot be sinful, anymore than desiring to obey the law of God and agreeing with it, is sinful. Just as Martin, by agreeing to break his fast, led to a seeming independent action from his enteric nervous system telling his brain to get on with the food preparation quick sharp, resulting in his near inability to actually accomplish the task, so Paul speaks of a power working in the members of the body, which serves to defeat the knowledge of what is a good thing according to the law of God, in experience.

The simple meaning is that if we do desire to do something sinful, we will find that the body will go along with it, without complaint. Likewise when we try to serve God with the mind, we will find that the members of the body will defeat us. The natural mind cannot serve God. It must be a renewed mind, amounting to a renewing of the spirit of the mind. Only then will we know the meaning of the life of Christ working through our minds and bodies, arising from the renewed spirit. What is this law working in the body?

The scripture calls this the law of sin, and it’s outworking is death. This power of sin and death is such that the body itself will always yield to it’s power. In fact there is no possibility that the body will not yield to the law of sin and death as long as we are in our natural minds. Paul tells us in Romans that God gave the Law of commandments precisely to teach us this. Otherwise men would themselves strive to fulfil the Law of God, in the strength of their own will, resulting in no benefit at all. We tend to think about this revelation from Romans 8:1 in the context of our receiving eternal life, or in the context of eternal life itself. We reason that the only purpose in this startling revelation in Romans, concerning the law of sin and death, is so that we can know about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Once we have believed, we imagine that thereafter we will automatically walk in the Spirit and life of Christ Jesus. Such an attitude is perfectly reasonable, but experience will quickly teach us that reality is not thus. If we then go on to reject the teaching that there is no such thing as the law of sin and death working in our members we will have thrown out the one thing which experience does teach us plainly and blame the Roman Catholic Church for a doctrine which we insist was their invention.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Romans 8:2”“4

There is no doubt that the fuller meaning of this passage from Roman 8:1-3 is to teach us something about the accomplishment of Christ concerning eternal life. Yet the Scripture shows that the underlying reality spoken in the words "law of sin and of death” are also central to its meaning. We cannot throw away the part we find difficult to understand.

For the purposes of this study it is this matter of the law of sin and of death working in the members of the body, which I want to lay hold off.

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.” Romans 6:6”“7,

A Difference of Meaning

In this passage of Scripture, Paul identifies two distinct entities. The first is the "old man” and the second is the "body of sin”. It is the body of sin which I want to draw attention to. Some brethren say that the body of sin is the same in meaning as the old man. I have to say however that this cannot be precisely true. It is true, that the old man, is all that which is inherited, and therefore which was true of our forefather Adam. It is not true to say that when we were born ourselves physically, we were somehow born with a crucified benefit in our lives, which is the other side of it’s meaning when speaking of this Scripture. Therefore if the old man is crucified in Christ, we would have to ask, what to answer, to the problem of the law of sin and death working in our members.

The "old man”, Paul says, is crucified in Christ. As this must be true, then we must ask, in what way does this benefit of inclusion in Christ’s death on the cross, become ours? It could only be after we were born of our father and mother. It could not be prior to this time because until we are physically born we cannot benefit experientially from anything at all. The answer to this question relies on a proper identification of the meaning of the second part of Romans 6:6 where we read about the "body of sin”. This Body” is the sarx or flesh which is the same word, flesh or fleshy, used in all of the scriptures under the header "The Testimony of Scripture” (above) in the body of the article. In simplicity the body of sin is the physical body itself.

There is another thought or revelation which we need to consider in this as well. When we speak about the "old man” we are definitely speaking about our physical inheritance, our very DNA which we received from Adam. We are however, not speaking about being Adam personally. Adam was an individual. We are ourselves individuals. We share the same physical substance that Adam had in his own body. What we cannot be is Adam himself. Adam was an individual, he was a man with his own personality and his own life. It is also correct to speak about the soul itself (volition, cognition and emotion), as the same soul in substance of image and likeness, which Adam had. What we cannot say, is that we are ourselves, Adam. We are not Adam, we are ourselves. And whilst we share the very same nature as Adam, both morally, physically, psychically and spiritually, we are in our essential beings unique. This is incredibly important to realise. It may seem somewhat obvious a thing to say, or else we may disagree in some way. Regardless of this, the significance of saying it, is not so obvious at all.

When Paul speaks of the "old man” and the "body of sin” he is making this distinction; albeit indirectly. The practical meaning of this is that Paul is pointing to the fact that whilst the "old man” is crucified in Christ, we have our very own bodies. Adam is not represented in us, we ourselves were represented in him when he sinned. Similarly Christ was not represented in us when he died, it is we who are represented in Christ. In just the same way that to benefit from this representation in Christ after we are born of water and Spirit, so must we see that in our own bodes (not Adam’s body) we are born in sin by representation. The evidence of this according to Paul is the power of sin working in our members. The instant we put this to the test and seek to obey the law of God, sin has its dominion over us and we die.

It is therefore absolutely necessary to comprehend and fully, that in reality of experience, the power of sin works through the members of our bodies and not simply in our soul’s directly, as though it were the soul itself which supplies the natural body with its lusts and passions. Although our souls are implicated in sin, through the heart, it is by consenting to sin, or agreeing to sin, or having a mind or heart to sin, that facilities the power of sin working in the members of our body to produce its inevitable consequence of sinning. In this arrangement our very soul itself, mind, emotions and the will, are taken prisoner to the body of sin, by consent. The body of sin can be freed from the power of sin and death through experiential identification with the cross unto death, and the soul can be freed from the restraints of the body itself, not by "self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body” but by resting in the finished work of the cross, by faith.

The basis for this liberation in the first instance, is the cross, and our inclusion in Christ, as the inclusion of the old man of Adam. The outworking of this liberty, is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which we receive into ourselves when we first received Christ Himself by faith, and were born again.

From an article published on the internet

TrueWitness: so simply yielding each decision to the holy Spirit solves the problem with the flesh?

I would be remiss if I did not let people know that Zondervan did update their 2011 version. Most occurrences of "sinful nature" have become "flesh". They decided to use the same English word for sarx found in the KJV and nearly every other English Bible. I applaud the change as it is a good one.

If you look at Romans 13:14 on the latest version of the NIV at Bible Gateway, you will notice that it now says this:

"Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.”

Unfortunately, old habits are hard to change. In the footnote the verse is qualified by the following:

"In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:14&version=NIV

They have improved just a bit (we have gone from having a sinful nature to living in a sinful state).

If the flesh is inherently sinful then the Lord Jesus was sinful, but He wasn't or it (flesh) wasn't. If you review the verse again, the problem is not the flesh but gratifying it's desires outside of the boundaries of your relationship with the Holy Spirit. Most of our problems that beset us are from an un-renewed thinking/mind, not our corruptible flesh. Our bodies left alone with no mind or will is amoral. Just a container. It is an unrenewed mind that engages its will to direct the body to fulfill the desires of the flesh. We are not trapped in a sinful state. We are new creations. Jesus had all the same desires of the flesh that you and I have, yet He never sinned. Now Christ is our life (Col 3:4). We occupy the same sort of flesh that Jesus had. We can live the overcoming, victorious life, the same as Jesus, but not by trying harder in the flesh. The life we now live, we live by the faith of the Son of God. Christ lives in us and as we walk after the Spirit and renew our mind (we are called to do that), we will go from faith to faith and glory to glory in our walk. Always dependent on Him and never thinking we have arrived. There is no condemnation and guilt to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, and are now walking after the Spirit and not the flesh, anymore.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit……………………………..

Listen to what brother Matthew Henry has to say about Romans 8:1……….

"I. The apostle here begins with one signal privilege of true Christians, and describes the character of those to whom it belongs: There is therefore now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, Rom_8:1. This is his triumph after that melancholy complaint and conflict in the foregoing chapter ”“ sin remaining, disturbing, vexing, but, blessed be God, not ruining. The complaint he takes to himself, but humbly transfers the comfort with himself to all true believers, who are all interested in it. 1. It is the unspeakable privilege and comfort of all those that are in Christ Jesus that there is therefore now no condemnation to them. He does not say, "There is no accusation against them,” for this there is; but the accusation is thrown out, and the indictment quashed. He does not say, "There is nothing in them that deserves condemnation,” for this there is, and they see it, and own it, and mourn over it, and condemn themselves for it; but it shall not be their ruin. He does not say, "There is no cross, no affliction to them or no displeasure in the affliction,” for this there may be; but no condemnation. They may be chastened of the Lord, but not condemned with the world. Now this arises from their being in Christ Jesus; by virtue of their union with him through faith they are thus secured. They are in Christ Jesus, as in their city of refuge, and so are protected from the avenger of blood. He is their advocate, and brings them off. There is therefore no condemnation, because they are interested in the satisfaction that Christ by dying , made to the law. In Christ, God does not only not condemn them, but is well pleased with them, Mat_17:5. 2. It is the undoubted character of all those who are so in Christ Jesus as to be freed from condemnation that they walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Observe, The character is given from their walk, not from any one particular act, but from their course and way. And the great question is this, What is the principle of the walk, the flesh or the spirit, the old or the new nature, corruption or grace? Which of these do we mind, for which of these do we make provision, by which of these are we governed, which of these do we take part with? "…………(Matthew Henry)

So brothers and sisters, by which of these are we governed? By which of these do we walk in? Do we walk in the path of grace? Or do we continue to walk in the path of condemnation? We are free men indeed. This army of prayer warriors that Christ is raising up is not an army of slaves to sin, but an army of freed slaves. Freed from the power of sin. Freed from the destruction of corruption. We are free to sing the glories of the Living God in a world that is dying.

Just as the slaves that threw of their shackles and followed Spartacus and struck terror into the heart of the Roman Empire, we are so much more than them, for we did not throw of our own shackles, they were taken from us. And by no mere man, but the man Christ Jesus. He delivered us by the bloody battle field of Calvary.

Yes brothers and sisters, we must stand before the cross and look up. Up there is the victory, up there is the triumph up there my God and yours blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.Having stripped rulers and authorities, He made a show of them publicly, triumphing over them in it. (col 2:14-15)

As we look up there, we turn from our own sin, we do not run from it. We look up and see our sin upon the cross in the form of Jesus. And as we gaze up, we see our sin defeated as our Saviour cries out "Father , Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And as we look up, we hear the final death blow and destruction of our sin "It is finished.”

If we will be warriors and march in that glorious army of the redeemed ,then brothers and sisters, come away from "Oh wretched man that I am.” Come away and walk in the glorious light of Calvary, of freedom. We look at our sin and in our audacity we struggle to overcome it and this becomes the thrust of our lives. And amazingly we are often proud of this, proud to be missing in action. Proud to be absent without official leave. Proud that we live in an eternal struggle against sin, proud that we are not like the wicked world. Proud that we have a conscience and do not sleep well at night.

We choose to dwell under condemnation, we choose to allow the enemy to control our lives , we choose to remain silent because the accuser of the brethren whispers in our ears "you are nothing but a wretched man, look at yourself, look in the mirror, cast your eyes upon your sin and see that you are worthless in this battle.” No brothers and sisters, look to Jesus, not to yourself. Look up, look up, look up and see your freedom. If we listen to the enemy of our souls, the accuser , the condemner, then we nullify Calvary in our lives and take ourselves out of the battle.

The Lord says "Look to me, I am the author and the finisher of your faith.” Shall we begin in the Spirit and attempt to finish this journey in the flesh? Brothers and sisters, if you would join this ancient army, this army that was and is and is to come, if you would march in lockstep with Gideon and with David and with Joshua, if you would run towards Goliath, if you would take on ten thousand and slay them all, if you would kneel down in the arena of life as the lions approach, if you would take your place with the heroes of faith then it is high time that we take our eyes of of ourselves and look up.

God in heaven, our Heavenly Father has said "Yea, I have set my King on My holy hill, on Zion. I will declare the decree of Jehovah. He has said to me you are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me and I shall give the nations for your inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.” The work is the Lord’s brothers and sisters, we are His army and we have been called to fight. Joshua was commissioned to take the land. David declares "I am not afraid of ten thousands of people who have set themselves against me all around.”

And the Prophet Micah says "Will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of Rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil. Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul. He has shown you oh man, what is good. And what does Jehovah require of you but to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Brothers and sisters, when I look up I see humility. I see my Lord humbled and naked for the whole world to see. Nothing hidden. When I look up I see justice. I see sin condemned. Oh brothers and sisters when I look up I see mercy . Mercy for me, mercy for me, mercy for me. I do not see my own condemnation, I see my Jesus. Yes, I see Jesus. There is therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Oh what a glorious freedom. Free indeed, free indeed , free indeed. Free indeed to stand and fight. To battle even unto death, with my fellow freed men. I pray today that those whom the Son has set free will push the doors of their captivity of wretchedness, that they would realize their freedom, that they would reckon their freedom and walk out of their cells into the glorious sunlight of no condemnation and join the Lord’s army in these the final days of the battle, one more battle in the war that is already won.

Why would we chose to stay in our cells after being freed? Why would we not choose to walk in the power of the Spirit, the power of the Spirit that Peter and Stephen walked in? Is it because we are afraid of the confrontation? Directly after Pentecost Peter confronts the crowd. By the power of the Spirit of God he now speaks. He is not denying Jesus, He is confessing Jesus with great boldness and his words cause them to be "stabbed in the heart.” This phrase, in the Greek means to penetrate, to violently agitate, to pierce. You see brothers and sisters, if we walk in the Spirit like Peter did, like Stephen did, we will be used in the front lines of the battle . Yet many of us have no desire to be in the front line of the battle. It is much safer to remain in our cells of wretchedness and introspection. On the front lines there is no neutral place.

It is victory or it is death. Do we really want to live that kind of life. Can we stand before the living God , right now , and say, yes Lord we are willing? It was victory for Peter as he saw 3000 added that day, it was victory for Stephen as he spoke and in Acts 7 we are told that his audience were "cut to the heart.” The time , brothers and sisters, has come for us to arise and stab men in the heart and see men saved or to cut to the heart and be stoned. We have no time left for neutrality. Do we really want this power? Do we really want this power? Let us look and see what brother Stephen did…..

Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking up intently into Heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Act 7:56 And he said, Behold, I see Heaven opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Brothers and sisters, it is time for us to look up. Let us gaze upon Jesus and let our gaze be uninterrupted. Let us look intently into heaven and we will see the Glory of God come down. Oh Lord let your glory fall upon the sleeping church.

If the flesh is inherently sinful then the Lord Jesus was sinful, but He wasn't or it (flesh) wasn't. If you review the verse again, the problem is not the flesh but gratifying it's desires outside of the boundaries of your relationship with the Holy Spirit. Most of our problems that beset us are from an un-renewed thinking/mind, not our corruptible flesh. Our bodies left alone with no mind or will is amoral. Just a container. It is an unrenewed mind that engages its will to direct the body to fulfill the desires of the flesh. We are not trapped in a sinful state. We are new creations. Jesus had all the same desires of the flesh that you and I have, yet He never sinned. Now Christ is our life (Col 3:4). We occupy the same sort of flesh that Jesus had. We can live the overcoming, victorious life, the same as Jesus, but not by trying harder in the flesh. The life we now live, we live by the faith of the Son of God. Christ lives in us and as we walk after the Spirit and renew our mind (we are called to do that), we will go from faith to faith and glory to glory in our walk. Always dependent on Him and never thinking we have arrived. There is no condemnation and guilt to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, and are now walking after the Spirit and not the flesh, anymore.

Is this not the age old issue for those who believe into Christ Jesus? When I read that Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh I do not assume that this is sinful flesh or that this speaks of all flesh being sinless.

Likeness

1. homoioma (ὁμοίωμα, 3667) denotes "that which is made like something, a resemblance,” (a) in the concrete sense, Rev. 9:7, "shapes” (RV, marg., "likenesses”); (b) in the abstract sense, Rom. 1:23, RV, "(for) the likeness (of an image)”; the KJV translates it as a verb, "(into an image) made like to”; the association here of the two words homoioma and eikon (see IMAGE) serves to enhance the contrast between the idol and "the glory of the incorruptible God,” and is expressive of contempt; in 5:14, "(the) likeness of Adam’s transgression” (KJV, "similitude”); in 6:5, "(the) likeness (of His death); in 8:3, "(the) likeness (of sinful flesh); in Phil. 2:7, "the likeness of men.” "The expression ‘likeness of men’ does not of itself imply, still less does it exclude or diminish, the reality of the nature which Christ assumed. That … is declared in the words ‘form of a servant.’ ‘Paul justly says in the likeness of men, because, in fact, Christ, although certainly perfect Man (Rom. 5:15; 1 Cor. 15:21; 1 Tim. 2:5), was, by reason of the Divine nature present in Him, not simply and merely man … but the Incarnate Son of God’” (Gifford, quoting Meyer). See SHAPE.¶ Cf. LIKE, B, (b).

Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

God forbid I should endeavour to persuade anyone of anything at any time. That would be utter foolishness.

That is a really good way to describe the difference between the old man and the flesh. It's wonderful in fact. God bless Zac Poonen for that.

When all is said and done however we have to come back to reality. It is this body of ours which is ruined and if we cannot see it I truly wonder how we will walk confidently. Speaking personally it was a simple matter for me to realise that I am a dog, because in short I am a dog. On that basis you have no choice but to cry out for deliverance. The hour that Christ became my garment was the hour I realised that being a dog is just fine with God. He had his answer for it. For that we should all be eternally thankful to Christ Who died for us. Returning to the vomit though is by far a worse thing than being a dog and that is where an understanding of the flesh is helpful. It is of course necessary for all of us even if we smell of roses.

Yes, Sidewalk and this doctrine keeps many from believing they can overcome sin.

Jesus also had freedom of choice. He always had the option to give in to the desires (lusts and affections) of His flesh. Did He have desires? We are told that "He hungered". He could have manifested a gluttonous choice to satisfy the desires of His flesh. He could have become slothful and slept in everyday. He could have given in to those who wanted to make Him a political King.

He was "tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).

The Bible says, "that God cannot be tempted by evil", (James 1:13), and some say that since Jesus was God, He could not be tempted. But, they forget that though Jesus was indeed God, He was also functioning as a man (He emptied Himself of the divine right to act as God and took the form of a man and chose to act behaviorally as a man, dependent on His Father. He was not tempted as God but was tempted as man.

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"yet without sin", indicates that Jesus could have sinned had He not resisted.

Jesus was willing to become clothed in a fleshly body and He was willing to become subject to temptation in that body of flesh. As long as we are in this body of flesh, this corruptible container that is earthly and natural and seeks earthly and natural relief for it's desires, we will be subject to temptation, through the lusts of the flesh, too. But, we can resist and overcome through Christ.

Actually there are 2 heresies that I know of that stated there is only Christ and no Jesus, meaning Christ was purely divine and not a man.

Sabellianism (modalist monarchianism)

and

Docetism from Greek word dokesis meaning "to seem"
Jesus only "seemed" to be human to us but did not have a real human body.

Of course both of them pretty much imply that Jesus could not have really suffered and died for man.

But, yes, he was really human. He felt emotion (wept), He was a hungered, He grew weary and tired, and He was tempted and bled real blood.

I remember hearing a practical devotion by Charles Stanley as he spoke on 1 John 1:9. He said the "blood" of Jesus cleanses us from the "penalty" of sin. But the "Person" of Jesus living inside of us helps us overcome the "power" of sin.

I thought, can it really be that simple?

Blaine

Jesus was willing to become clothed in a fleshly body and He was willing to become subject to temptation in that body of flesh. As long as we are in this body of flesh, this corruptible container that is earthly and natural and seeks earthly and natural relief for it's desires, we will be subject to temptation, through the lusts of the flesh, too. But, we can resist and overcome through Christ.

Is this not the same as saying that there is something wrong with the body? If not then it is the same as saying that God made the physical body with desires which when met produce sin. The action which Adam entered into was no more than eating of a piece of fruit. Can that be either an action of sin or can it be evidence of a physical desire which of itself when entered into produced immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death?

I notice that you use the term 'this corruptible container' which I take to be a philosophical way of avoiding the fact that this container is not corruptible, but corrupt. Were it not so we would none of us face physical death at all. Can you confirm that you believe that the physical body of every living human being on earth at this time is only corrupt at the point a man sins, but is otherwise unaffected by sin. In other words does sin produce physical death or not, regardless as to whether the sin is a response to a natural physical desire or is an issue of rebellion of the heart?

Can you please state plainly that you believe that the physical body which Christ was given by the Father was in all parts neurophysical and physical the precise same in substance and power as the body you are now clothed in.

Can you please tell me what the power of sin and death is?

Please no silly answers. You make some very profound claims amounting to saying that the whole church universal has been deceived by a doctrine from hell and that this has directly led to countless millions being kept in the bondage of sin because it has led believers of every generation to miss that God's answer to the problem of sin, is Christ become sin for our sakes. Though you yourself say that the answer is rather, that the body itself is precisely the same in all its substance and power as that of Messiah. Or to put this in reverse, your claim is that the physical body which the Father prepared for His Son was precisely the same in substance and power as the body which you inherited from your father.

Please do not feel any compulsion to answer these questions but I would simply ask you to really answer them and not simply repeat sayings which amount to no answer at all.