If you knew someone who was told they have between three and six months left to live because of cancer, knowing this person has been a part of the Roman Catholic church what would you share with them? Knowing they have religious knowledge of JESUS what does one say and share?
Of course I am praying about this and for this person.
God bless
maryjane
Edit: I changed the title as was suggested to me for more clarity. God bless
It is never an easy thing to share with someone who has in essence been presented with the centrality of the gospel and has for all that followed the traditions of men. This is where the majority of Roman Catholics appear to be in their thinking.
I spent a few hours some years ago with a pastor who's relative was dying of cancer and who was involved in a cult situation, where the centrality of the gospel was evident, but where the members were held captive by traditions. There were probably more than twenty people praying for this man and witnessing to him daily. By the time I was made aware of these things, pretty well everyone was desperate and deeply concerned.
As I listened to this account I found myself wondering what it could be that was keeping this man from actually crying out to the Lord to save him. After a while I decided that in a circumstance where the centrality of the gospel had been with a man for many years, then the explanation could not possibly be either his own ignorance, or the failure of others to faithfully pray for him.
I decided to share with this pastor along the lines that it was Satan who was keeping this man from actually exercising faith to believe and that the answer lay in standing against Satan, rather than trying to wrestle the man into obedience. So we prayed as the Spirit led us to pray. The pastor was worn out and could hardly pray, but I was keen to prove the power of the gospel and so I prayed against the lies which this dying man had received over many years, particularly those relating to his particular cult. I was so confident that in a circumstance where a person had enough central understanding of the Lord's birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension that there was already in his thinking sufficient for life if these things were truly believed.
So I reasoned to myself that if this man was not openly against Christ, and was in any event entering death, what could possibly keep him from the love of God and true salvation in Christ? The only thing, I reasoned, were the lies of the devil. So we bound those lies, asked the Lord to lay waste to them in this man's thinking and to free him from the power of the enemy through his lies. Three days later he believed and confessed a living faith in Christ. It turned out that this was just a few hours before he died.
In the case of Roman Catholics I take the same position. It seems to me that to miss that which is sound in the Roman church, namely the central and necessary things, due to an offence of those things which make ruin of them, is to miss who the enemy really is. It may well be that we must speak of those central and necessary things, but we must first stand against the one whose lies were sown for the single purpose of making ruin of those wonderful truths, which are already in the minds of those who would otherwise believe the truth to a good effect. It is the lies which bind the mind, and it is the lies that we must ask the Lord to destroy in the minds of those who are bound by them.
Greetings
Thank you for sharing this here with me. I have been praying for this person to see beyond the lies of the RCC before it is to late. Its always so hard to share with someone who has "some knowledge" of truth and yet is deceived as many in the Catholic church are. Knowing someones time here is short makes it all the more difficult for me to know how and what to speak with them. On the one hand I fear saying nothing at all, on the other if I should open my mouth to speak and say the wrong things I might send them deeper into the lies and away from GOD. Perhaps though I am over thinking this all? After all I must remember its does not come down to me or depend on me, the person is in JESUS hands and I trust the LORD completely.
I do thank you for sharing your experience and heart here with me. I myself was raised as a Catholic and did not come to truly encounter JESUS, repent of my sins, and submit unto to HIM until I was already an adult. For me it was a matter of seeing and truly coming to understand that I could never be good enough and that I could never earn my way into Heaven. I had to come to the end of myself and realize that there was nothing good in me that could earn that gift that has been so mercifully given to me, the gift of salvation. Now living my life in HIM I realize there is so much more to my relationship with the LORD then the "traditions" I was taught growing up. Of course I realize that does not mean this persons issues are the same as mine were. I will move forward and pray as you suggested, thank you again.
God bless
maryjane
Is it possible this person is saved? Some in the RC church are saved. Does she exhibit the fruits of the Spirit?
I guess you have to try to figure out where she is placing her trust--- in Jesus or the RC church?
Also, many Catholics do not know that the term "born again" is in the bible much less that Jesus said it. I know this because when my wife who was raised catholic began attending church with me her relatives asked if she was one of those "born agains". They think that is a Protestant invention. I would point out in John 3 where Jesus says this.
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by TMK on 2014/4/16 5:15:09
Is it possible this person is saved? Some in the RC church are saved. Does she exhibit the fruits of the Spirit?
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Greetings TMK
In praying about how to respond to this question I have to ask this: Is it possible for a person who is saved, who has had a genuine encounter with JESUS, been filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, repented of their sins and turned from them to then go back and continue sinning against GOD? I think the BIBLE clearly gives us that answer. Since continuing to take part in and supporting the teaching, traditions, and pagan beliefs of the RCC would be sin I can not find any other answer then to say this person has clung to the RCC and not to JESUS alone. So with this in mind I am seeking to share truth with them before it is to late and they pass from this world.
God bless
maryjane
Hi MJ
Are you of the opinion that no RC who has ever lived was or is saved?
I am not picking on you just curious.
Are there specific pagan practices that you are referencing?
by TMK on 2014/4/17 10:50:31
Hi MJ
Are you of the opinion that no RC who has ever lived was or is saved?
I am not picking on you just curious.
Are there specific pagan practices that you are referencing?
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Greetings TMK
To answer your first question, No that is not what I believe. I myself was raised as a Roman Catholic. I stated and do believe that if someone has had an encounter with JESUS, been filled with the HOLY SPIRIT and repented of their sins they would not go back to sinning against GOD. They would seek to submit to HIM alone and make HIM LORD of their life. The RCC is a false religion, every bit as much as the Mormon church or Jehovah witnesses are. SO my response is yes people who practice the CATHOLIC faith can and are saved all the time but after coming to the cross and JESUS they would come out of such a dead religion not continue on with its practices and traditions. They would turn and flee from their sin, in this case their sin of following a false teaching other then the gospel of JESUS.
To answer your second question. RCC pray for the dead. They pray to the dead. They believe when they take communion they are actually eating JESUS flesh and drinking HIS blood. Here are three traditions that they follow whose roots can be traced back to the pagan religions of the time when Constantine forced everyone to become christian. There veneration of Mary and their worship of her is another example.
I do not feel as if you are picking on me.:) No worries. I understand your questions there are many today who do not know or understand just how controlling and deadly the teaching in the RCC is. They think because Catholic profess to follow JESUS that they are saved but the truth is they do not follow JESUS alone, their faith and religious traditions are based in false teachings. That is why I am praying and seeking GOD for this person. I pray they will see their need for JESUS before it is to late. I pray they will see that no religion can save them and that GOD will never accept a divided heart.
God bless
maryjane
Hi MJ
I guess I should have been more specific and ask whether a practicing RC can be truly saved but you appear to have answered that question.
It should be noted that Martin Luther believed in and defended transubstantiation; he also believed in the immaculate conception and that Mary was sinless and was a perpetual virgin. He also believed that infant baptism removed sins.
I have little doubt that most evangelicals would say that Martin Luther was truly saved. He put his faith in Jesus Christ as do many Catholics.
I am not defending RC, believe me. But I do believe there are saved people who remain in the RC church.
by TMK on 2014/4/17 13:22:07
Hi MJ
I guess I should have been more specific and ask whether a practicing RC can be truly saved but you appear to have answered that question.
It should be noted that Martin Luther believed in and defended transubstantiation; he also believed in the immaculate conception and that Mary was sinless and was a perpetual virgin. He also believed that infant baptism removed sins.
I have little doubt that most evangelicals would say that Martin Luther was truly saved. He put his faith in Jesus Christ as do many Catholics.
I am not defending RC, believe me. But I do believe there are saved people who remain in the RC church.
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Greetings TMK
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. As far as Martin Luther's beliefs, all I can say is we are to look to JESUS and the BIBLE not to men. No where in the WORD does it tell us that Mary remained a virgin, or that she was born free from sin, or were we instructed to pray to her, or that she would intercede on our behalf, or that she shared in the work of the cross as co-redemptrix. Mary worship is sin, it is a form of idol worship.
I appreciate that you are not defending the RCC, as I am not attacking them. I pray all the time for those lost in its clutches. I pray they will see JESUS and come to know HIM as their LORD and SAVIOR. In this thread my intention and hope is to share with this person whom I care very deeply about while there is still time.
God bless
maryjane
Hi TMK,
Martin Luther went with consubstantiation, presence being around the wafer. I would not describe MJ as an Evangelical, neither would I describe myself as such. We are both ex-RC who encountered the living God and we were born again by the Spirit who is now leading and guiding us into all truth. (which would mean away from error as well)
Do you believe that there are saved Mormons who remain Mormons, continue to call themselves Mormon? What about JW ? Muslims? Judaism? There is only one group in Scotland who remain within the Catholic church after claiming to be born again, and that is the charismatics, which is a whole other story.
MJ is write, RC is paganism and works based salvation. They have so many high heresies it would be hard to know where to start, paganism through and through. We are called out of darkness into His marvelous light and I praise God that over the centuries, millions of RC have encountered Jesus and left the Catholic church. You may know a few misguided souls, but that does not change the truth TMK. And here is the thing, unless you acknowledge that the Eucharist is Christ Himself, you cannot be a Catholic. In foolishness you may choose to call yourself by that name, but by rejecting the teaching authority of the Pope, you have been put under a curse ( anathema) by that very organisation and they would consider you hell-bound...........bro Frank
Frank that is pretty much a protestant view of Catholicism that's for sure. The reality however is very different for some Roman Catholics. Not least because despite your insistence on committing them to the same meaning as Muslims or Jehovah's Witnesses and so on, you are missing the most profound reality of all. The Roman Church in the list you mentioned is the only group who actually acknowledge that Christ has come in the flesh. By Christ of course they mean the incarnate Son of God born of a virgin.
Roman Catholic dogma without doubt amounts to salvation by sacramental obedience. For those who understand the dogma, it really does amount to salvation by works, albeit works which are pressed by men set aside for that purpose. Not an easy thing to resist if you are minded to be subject to authorities. When I was researching the book Far From Rome Near to God with Martin Buckingham I had the opportunity to speak to a great many Roman Catholics and apart from a few primitive Catholics and many priests I didn't meet a single Catholic who could explain the sacrament of communion in its transubstantiate presence. So in the end what were these men and women I spoke to really believing? They were believing that Christ died for them and they were believing a man. The doctrine was and is beyond most Roman Catholics.The problem I think really comes down to revelation. Yet who would have the confidence to insist that over one billion men and women are perishing because they have followed the traditions of men?
I know we have been here before, but I wanted to present a balance. No man has the authority to insist that someone who has the power to believe that Christ died for their sins is yet perishing.
Andrew writes........
'Frank that is pretty much a protestant view of Catholicism that's for sure."
That is a very dismissive statement brother, as if, if one can be pigeon-holed then one can ignore the words spoken. You seem to present yourself as someone who knows the Catholic community Andrew? Were you raised in the Catholic tradition? Were you raised in a Catholic community? Did you have a Catholic education? How many Catholics have you actually spoken to directly on the subject of being born again? Have you every actually asked a Catholic if and when they were born again and what that means to them.
The balance is the Word of God Andrew. How does Jesus say a man must be saved? What does the Word say about salvation and becoming a new creature in Christ? This is the balance, this is the measuring rod. The vast majority of Americans would say they are Christians, yet it is accepted that much of American Christianity is a cross-less or a Christ-less or a cultural Christianity.
You write.........
"Yet who would have the confidence to insist that over one billion men and women are perishing because they have followed the traditions of men? "
Jesus would.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(Mat 7:13-16)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
(Mat 7:21-28)
That is a very dismissive statement brother, as if, if one can be pigeon-holed then one can ignore the words spoken. You seem to present yourself as someone who knows the Catholic community Andrew? Were you raised in the Catholic tradition? Were you raised in a Catholic community? Did you have a Catholic education? How many Catholics have you actually spoken to directly on the subject of being born again? Have you every actually asked a Catholic if and when they were born again and what that means to them.
I will politely ignore most of that Frank for your sake.
As for pigeonholing Frank! Ignoring the words spoken! Who's words? I sometime wonder if some of us have a lapsed memory or an inability to remember what we have read previously, or what has passed between us and those we address. It makes for a wholly ignorant discussion if every time we say something to a named person we have to re-iterate our whole life history in order to make a simple point. Its tedious and moronic!
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