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Were the Scottish Covenanters right?

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

A dear brother recommended some videos featuring the Scottish Covenanters. The brother shared with me how these saints suffered for their faith. I was intrigued having heard about the Covenanters but knowing little about them.

I watched the videos and there is no denying the saints suffered for their faith in Christ. But a question came to my mind was how some of these brethren were martyred for caring the temporal sword. As I watched the videos I got the impression the Scottish brethren were not adverse to carrying two swords. One sword was of course the Bible. The other was a Scottish broadsword the fight the English who were imposing there will on Scotland. More specifically to fight the English that were persecuting the Scottish church.

The narrator said toleration is good. But one must be prepared to take up the temporal sword to resist evil. More specifically to take up the temporal sword to resist persecution.

Unlike the Anabaotists, the Scottish Covenanters did not justify their position from the teachings of Christ. But being the Calvinists they were went to the Old Testament to justify their position and taking up temporal arms to resist persecution.

I find this attitude to prevail even among evangelical and Calvinistic brothers today. That we must arm with temporal weapons to resist persecution by the state.

Where the Scottish Covenanters right to take up the sword to resist persecution? Are we called to arm today with an AR 15 and a Glock 45 to resist persecution?

Please note my question is NOT dealing with having a weapon for home defense. I am asking are we to take up weapons to resist government persecution? More specifically are we to pick up temporal weapons to resist persecution for the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Bearmaster.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

what is the early church example with government?

S
Sidewalk Apr 27, 2014

I am intrigued by the way the passage in 1Peter is worded, how we are to submit to governing authorities who are sent to reward good and punish evil behavior. One does not need to look too far to see governing authorities who don't qualify for receiving the respect of this passage.

Governments whose aim and mission is to subjugate people by force, kill off the ones who cause trouble or cannot contribute to the revenue stream, seem to me to be subject to removal by force.

When the children of Israel were commanded to completely kill off some of their enemies but did not obey, they suffered the consequence. Those same enemies came back with a vengeance doing harm that would not have occured if they had been killed according to the original command.

God's command...

The world is full of problems country by country, state by state, village by village, family by family. These problems will never be solved by war, though it seems reasonable at the time. Rather we will be blessed by obeying God.

I am not quite ready to agree to violent revolution as obedience to God, but there are many who have crossed into that kind of thinking. That said, I can certainly see how a revolution is imminent as society collapses. Hard to imagine a world plunging headlong into debt can avoid it.

M
MaryJane Apr 27, 2014

Greetings Bear

My answer to you would be no we are not called to take up arms to resist government persecution. There was persecution happening in Paul and Peter's time do we read anywhere that they called people to arm themselves and resist??

God bless
maryjane

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

Noah in my reading if the New Testamen the early church submitted to the governing authorities provided this submission did not conflict with the gospel. I do not see the early Christians were called to arm and resist persecution.

Bearmaster.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

Mary Jane as I indicated to Noah we do not see the early Christians taking up arms to resist persecution.

Bear.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

Sidewalk your post is thought provoking. No doubt there are going to revolution against government. Some revolutions even being led by Christians. I think the American Revolution was one. And being in the South there were those God fearing Christians who resisted the Waar of Naarthern Agression to defend so called states rights. Call it for what it is. The God fearing Christians of the South were fighting against the North to defend southern slavery.

I believe it was Solomon who said there is nothing new under the sun

My thoughts of course.

Bear.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

MaryJane,

I wouldn't know how to justify taking up arms/weapons then.

I'm glad for examples of spirit filled people strengthened to endure whatever God puts them through.

S
Sidewalk Apr 27, 2014

During the Vietnam conflict, the war of my day, I recall long sessions of conversations over coffee discussing the morality of war, and the obligations of men to defend others, blah, blah, blah. When I got the "Greetings" letter, things began to change and refocus. I asked my draft board for classification as a conscientious objector, knowing that the Viet Cong were not invading Minnesota... yet.

But I did go into the army rather than run or go to jail, and was sent to Viet nam. Still, I did not carry a rifle and no one gave me grief about that- as a medic I was able to carry more medical supplies in place of the weapon and ammo.

But to make this story closer to the topic, there came a day when I was in a very intense firefight, and suddenly my life and the other men with me were in real danger. I was being shot at, and though I had nothing personal against the people shooting at me I found myself very willing to shoot and kill them. For several long minutes I was lying on the ground in a jungle 13,000 miles from home, holding an M-16 set to full automatic, looking for a head to blow off while the sergeant (whose gun this was) crawled out in front of me to pull a man to safety.

Things come down to immediate concern, sometimes to a split-second decision, to a situation you never really saw coming. You will act on instinct, use what you have, do what needs to be done- whether you are "prayed-up" or not.

Right now we are watching things unfold, hopefully with enough wisdom to pray Godly energy into whatever God is doing among the worldwide scatter of men. Ukraine is on the brink, Syria is a cauldron of violence, Iran will soon be an aggressive nuclear power, North Korea is ready to go way out of control, Afghanistan is falling back under crazy Taliban control, on and on. We can't physically stop any of it, but our prayers are instantaneous to the good of those who are called into God's purposes.

My feeling is a little like the strange way Jesus told the disciples to get a sword. Peter said, "OK, I got one!"

Jesus said it was enough. No further instructions of what to do with it, and no record that the sword served a major purpose in building the early church.

So also today- "Got an AR-15?" Good. It is enough.

If there is a time in the future when it is appropriate to use in a Godly way, you will be ready. But call number one is prayer where real power comes to meet and defeat the powers of darkness.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

Sidewalk I think we are close in age. I remember Vietnam. I had to register for the draft I was classified as 4-F because of my eyes. It would not do me any good to have a weapon in my house as I would be more of a danger to.myself than an intruder.

You are right about the world falling into evil. I agree that prayer is always that which restrains evil. This is why Persecution Watch was birthed as we pray for the persecuted church and the conversion of the persecutors.

I get the impression the Scottish Covenanters were not doing this as they seemed more keen to.pick up the temporal sword to resist persecution.

I would say to my Calvinistic and evangelical brethren who want to arm to resist persecution, what has been witness of the followers of Jesus? One would be hard pressed to see them picking up arns to resist persecution.

Bear.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2014

so you think Jesus wants us to have a gun in the home in an emergency? (I mean i have a small knife)

P
proudpapa Apr 27, 2014

Hi Bear,

I had never even heard of the 'Scottish Covenanters'.

I feel it to be fairly clear in Scripture that the Church is not to take up arms or create a militia to defend its self, but what is not so clear is if it is right or wrong for a Christian to participate in wars such as the 2 world wars, in which many true Christians undoubtly did.

The Scriptures is mysteriously silent about the such and I believe this is because the Scriptures are not to be read as a law book, but often times speakes differently to different people of different generations such is the case with many subjects that the Church is divided over.

M
murrcolr Apr 28, 2014

The Covenanters

KING JAMES I. did his utmost for about twenty years to establish uniformity of worship in England and Scotland, and to destroy the freedom of the Kirk. Charles I. continued his father’s work, but at the commencement of his reign, (1625) when God-fearing men were continually harassed, preaching had almost ceased, and the dominant spirit was one of legal formalism, Dickson of Irvine was permitted to return to the parish from which he had been banished, and a remarkable revival immediately broke out. An irresistible power accompanied his message, and for five years few Sabbaths passed without numbers being converted. "The power of godliness,” says Robert Fleming, " like a spreading moor-burn did advance from one place to another, which put a marvelous lustre on those parts of the country (Stewarton and Irvine), the Savior whereof brought many from other parts of the land to see its truth.”

This movement stirred up the spirit of prayer and was followed by a second and more memorable revival in 1630. In June of that year a conference which included several of the persecuted ministers assembled at Shotts, on the Clyde. A vast concourse of godly persons gathered on this occasion from all quarters of the country, and several days were spent in social prayer preparatory to the service, the Communion being fixed for June 20. So rich a blessing was granted on that day that the assembly, instead of retiring to rest, divided into little bands and spent the whole night in supplication and praise. The Monday was consecrated to thanksgiving, a practice not then common, and proved the great day of the feast.

After much entreaty John Livingston, chaplain to the Countess of Wigtown, consented to preach. He spent the night with one of these praying bands, but in the morning his heart failed him at the thought of his youth and insufficiency, and he stole quietly away across the fields hoping to escape observation. As he directed a last glance at the Kirk of Shotts in the distance, a Voice spoke in his ear: "Have I been a wilderness unto Israel? A land of darkness?” (Jer. II. 31.) The Message came with a force, which compelled him to return to the work. Then God perfected His strength in His servant’s weakness. For an hour and a half Livingston expounded Ezekiel XXXVI. 25-6, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.’’

In later life Livingston spoke of this as the day wherein he enjoyed most of the presence of God in public. " In the end, offering to close with some words of exhortation, I was led on about an hour’s time in a strain of exhortation and warning, with such liberty and melting of heart as I never had the like in public all my life.’’

Robert Fleming ("The Fulfilling of Scripture’’) says: " On this occasion there was so convincing an appearance of God and down-pouring of the Spirit in an extraordinary way, with a strange, unusual motion on the hearers, who in a giant multitude were there convened of divers ranks, that it was known that near five hundred had at that time a discernible change wrought on them, of whom most proved lively Christians afterwards. It was the sowing of a seed through Clydesdale, so as many of most eminent Christians in that country could date either their conversion or some remarkable confirmation in their case from that day.”

(It is an illustration of revival being linked to revival that at the great meeting at Kilsyth, of which place Livingston was a native, on July 23, 1839, William Chalmers Burns, preaching on Psalm CX. 3, retold the story of the Kirk of Shotts and pressed immediate acceptance of Christ. " I felt my own soul moved in a manner so remarkable,’’ said Burns, " that I was led, like Mr. Livingston, to plead with the unconverted instantly to close with God’s offer of mercy. The power of the Lord’s Spirit became so mighty upon their souls as to carry all before it, like the " rushing mighty wind’’ of Pentecost. Some were screaming out in agony: others, and among these strong men, fell to the ground as if they had been dead. I was obliged to give out a Psalm: our voices being mingled with the mourning groans of many prisoners sighing for deliverance.” [Finney. ‘‘Lectures on Revivals,” p. 62, note.])

At the date of the revival at Shotts a venerable minister, Mr. Robert Bruce, lived in retirement at Edinburgh, and through weakness kept his chamber. ‘‘ A little before his death,’’ says Fleming, " there was a meeting of divers godly ministers at that time there on some special ground of the church’s concernment, who, hearing he was in the town, came together and gave him an account of the actings of those times, the Prelates then designing the service book. After which Mr. Bruce prayed, and did therein tell over again to the Lord the very substance of their discourse, which was a sad representation of the case of the Church: at which time there was such an extra¬ordinary motion on all present, so sensible a down-pouring of the Spirit, that they could hardly contain themselves: yea, which was most strange, even some unusual motion on those who were in other parts of the house not knowing the cause at that very instant. One Mr. Weemes of Lothaker being then present, when he went away said, O how strange a man is this, for he knocked down the Spirit of God on us all!’’ This he said because Mr. Bruce did divers times knock with his fingers on the table. I had this from a worthy Christian gentleman in whose mother’s house this was.’’
[‘‘The Filling of Scripture,’’ p. 360.]

On this subject Fleming remarks ‘‘It is undeniable how great a witness to the Truth the Spirit, and down pouring thereof is: for this is God’s own seal, which is not put to a lie or false¬hood. Thus He bears witness to His work in the hearts of His people, and by this also the Lord doth seal and attest the doctrine of the church and commission of His servants who publish the same. Yea, at some special seasons when the Truth hath least countenance or encouragement from without: times of contradiction, when men will not receive its testimony, and a great spate of opposition is to the Gospel, then hath this in a more full and large measure been discernible.”

There is an instance of this in the life of Robert Garnock, executed with five others for "constumacv’’ and faithfulness to the Covenant in I68I. He had been stedfast from early youth, and has himself recorded: ‘‘ The Lord was kind to me then, and His love was better than life. I was tossed in my wanderings and banishment with many ups and downs till I came to Edinburgh, where I heard of a Communion to be on the borders of England, and then I went to it. Oh, let me bless the Lord that ever trysted me with such a lot as that was: for the 20th, 21st, and 22nd of April, 1677, were the three most wonderful days with the Lord’s presence that ever I saw on earth. Oh, but His power was wonderfully seen and great to all the assembly, especially to me. Oh, the three wonderful days of the Lord’s presence at East Nisbet in the Merse; that was the greatest Communion, I suppose, these twenty years; I got there what I will never forget while I live. Glory to His sweet name that ever there was such a day in Scotland; His work was wonderful to me both in spirituals and temporals; oh, that I could get Him praised and magnified for it. He was seen that day sitting at the head of His table, and His spikenard ‘sending forth a pleasant smell.’ Both good and bad were made to cry out, and some to say with the disciples, ‘It is good for us to be here.’ They would have been content to have stayed there, and I thought it was a heaven begun to be in that place.’’ ["The Scots Worthies,” p. 460.]

It was in the strength of such spiritual manifestations as these that the Covenanters withstood the fifty years’ persecution at the hands of the Prelates, Court and King. They fought for right principles and were ultimately victorious: they helped to procure the blessings of religious freedom and civil liberty which we now possess.

S
Sidewalk Apr 28, 2014


Quote--------------
so you think Jesus wants us to have a gun in the home in an emergency? (I mean i have a small knife)

Small knife not enough. Jesus said sword... Guns of course were invented later, but a sword was in the day a man's personal weapon of war. My reference to the AR-15 was just a logical extension, not a directive.

For what it is worth, I do not have such a weapon and feel no compunction to get one. I intend to fight WWIII on my knees, and I'm starting early.

H
havok20x Apr 28, 2014

I think to the degree that we submit ourselves to our governing authorities, corrupt or not, is the degree that God is able to get glory. I am reformed (mostly) and it took The Lord to change my heart about going to war witht he government, but I thought it was a culture thing more or less--a southern thing.

edited for clarity

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