Is this something to be concerned about?

"He will say one has to be in the Hebrew roots to truly understand Paul."

I am not in the Hebrew roots, yet I am persuaded I understand Paul here, as he exhorts the brethren to shun such persons as this man of whom you speak.

But I beseech you, brethren, to keep a watch on those who are causing the divisions among you, and are leading others into sin, in defiance of the instruction which you have received; and habitually to shun them. For men of that stamp are not bondservants of Christ our Lord, but are slaves to their own appetites; and by their plausible words and their flattery they utterly deceive the minds of the simple. Paul to the Romans 16:17,18

Is this something to be concerned about?

You already know it in your spirit!

Do as Paul commands in faithfulness to Messiah and His Gospel!

quoted from bearmaster: "The brother will often say that had some things that are hard to understand. He will say one has to be in the Hebrew roots to truly understand Paul."

Hi Blaine,

It is precisely the two points quoted above that I find used over and over again to try to justify what pretty much is modern day judaizing: brushing off important verses from scripture with "it is too difficult or ambiguous to understand fully" and "you have to be Jewish or be familiar with Jewish culture and history to really understand the Bible and Jesus" which I believe are absolutely misleading and have placed many on the slippery slope toward error. (now I am not saying that there is no benefit to studying Jewish culture, but what I am saying is that it takes quite a distant second if not third in place of scripture). If both cases were true, then one would have to say it isn't the Bible which is sufficient, but the Bible plus Jewish culture/history. But this leaves us with a huge problem, which Jewish tradition and myth will one look to as a starting point? Jewish culture has changed and gone through many contortions through history, whereas the Bible has not. It is absolutely clear, we are actually instructed not to look to Jewish tradition and myths but rather the Word of God:

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Titus 1:10-16

But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
Titus 2:1

Also, if the two points were true, then one would have to say that evangelism and mission work has been completely erroneous for the past I don't even know how many years, because according to their argument (whether they realize the implications or not), one has to teach Jewish culture along with the gospel in order to properly train up disciples of Christ, which I believe to be ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I don't know how any honest believer can say that Paul's writings regarding the feasts, etc. isn't clear enough to conclude that we are set free from the Mosaic Covenant.

A verse that comes to mind that clearly demonstrates this:

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Ephesians 2:13-16

The key verse being: "by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances"

And two key words: "Abolish" and "Ordinance"

According to strong's concordance:

Abolish:

to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power
to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

Ordinance:

the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

We actually undermine the very power and value of the gospel when we begin to think that Jewish ways and persons are somehow more superior to others, which is sadly what many believers fall into thinking that God loves Jews more than gentiles. He loves ALL EQUALLY (Jew and gentile) and thus died for ALL on the cross to make us ONE by breaking down the wall of hostility that once existed through the ordinances (Jewish customs and cultural laws, which include the feasts).

But sadly, deceptions are sure to come as scripture says, particularly in these last days, and they are just going to get worse and more deceptive to lead MANY astray. Many old heresies and false teachings are just being remasked and made more palatable for the contemporary church that seeks a spiritual experience and fellowship with God apart from His Word...sigh...my heart aches to see how things will progress as we get closer to the final hour...

We must look at the ten lepers. All told to go and pay what Moses required. All started away, but the Samaritan turned and came back and gave thanks. As he was walking he realized, Hey, I can't go down to pay what Moses required. They won't let me in.

And so it is, A gentile cannot keep the old festival, etc. because they are not for him. The Jews and the law won't let him in to the area he needs to be in.

bearmaster wrote:
Saints please understand I am not talking about merely obeying the Ten Commandments. But the WHOLE Mosaic code. This brother believes the whole Torah is binding on New Covenant believers. Thus the Jewish feasts are to be observed by by all who are in Jesus.

The brother has not gone to the point of saying you must be saved by keeping the law. But his position of putting New Covenant believers under the Torah is very disturbing.

This is just my understanding of what I heard him preach a few years ago. (And amen to everyone’s answers!)

God bless,
Lisa

At the judgement, the Lord will ask: "And I appointed feasts but you did not attend..."

Uhhhh... No.

The WCG did this years ago and today all it's spin offs still do. We must still love our brother, he is on a path too.
Do they practice stoning? Do they keep 2 tithes? One for the
festival and one for the Levites? They are modernizing the
old covennat.

It seems amazing to me that anyone who has tasted of the good fruit of the Holy Spirit, has believed into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, has read Paul's letter to the Galatians would consider the thought that there is something to be gained be resorting to Torah compliance.

The reference about the feasts not attended is predicated by the reference in Amos 5:21 where God hates the feasts and assemblies that are lip service only. Then Matthew 25:31ff where the terms of the judgement are defined, what kind of behavior the Lord is looking for.

Blaine,

I am curious - do these folks offer bloody sacrifices to atone for their sins? Offering animals to atone for their sins was central to the religious rituals. Now the moral law is one we all observe - do not steal, kill, etc - not that it redeems us but this will be a part of our lifestyle as a result of our walk with the Lord.

Anyhow..I am wondering about their observance of the sacrificial rituals. Oh, and what about a temple, a holy of holies..do they have one?

Got questions...

ginnyrose

Got a dinner call, but I had one more question. Sandra's comment is in the same vein, how does one improve on the promises and grace of Christ?

Why does this seem like a breeding ground for spiritual pride and the resulting blindness we see in the Pharisees of Jesus' day?

My question to this gentleman would be this: "What is the essence of what you want from God? And what is the essence of what He wants from you?"

My answer as a Christian believer is very simple. I want intimacy and power. (In that order strictly!) I believe He wants that for me too, as demonstrated in the earthly walk of Jesus of Nazareth.

As Paul teaches, the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, not an alternative path to the Heavenly Blessing.

The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who were tempted to return to a form of Judaism, if only an outward show of it, in order to escape the persecution they were under due to their conversion to Christ. Paul had a confrontation with Peter in the book of Galatians because Peter was returning to the practices of the law when around Jews and exercising his freedom when not around the Jews. The Jewish apostles in conference made a decision that they would not instruct Gentile believers to keep the law, but rather tell them to abstain from blood and from meat offered to idols. They did not believe it necessary for new Gentile believers to go to the "Jewish roots" of Christianity by keeping the Mosaic or Levitical law in order to please and obey God.

It has been my experience that most of those who become involved in the Hebrew roots movement and follow it to its consistent conclusion eventually come to reject Paul's writings. I have heard some of them say, more than once, that they no longer believe that Paul's writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Ok, so they believe the temple will be rebuilt - won't comment on it, but the sacrifices for sin - how do they deal with the sin issue?

Methinks that getting away from Jesus' sacrifice complicates things dreadfully. God made it so simple, why muddle it?
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QUOTE:
Somehow all of this seems to be a step backwards from the cross of Christ.
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I agree.

They believe in Jesus sacrifice and also the need to kill animals which foretold of Jesus sacrifice? Methinks one will need a human to interpret their doctrine - gets complicated.

I suspect these folks do not understand the OT law at all, none. Neither do they understand the OT prophets. They do not get the purpose of it, God's will in it, not at all. They want a religion and think that by doing they will earn favor with God. Won't work.

Reckon I should have read others' posts on this topic, but am appalled that moderns would hanker after the OT law to this degree.

.