The Church of Wells Discerning - The Church of Wells Website

sermonindex May 1, 2014

Saints,

The Church of wells is a group that has formed that has shown cultish behaviours and using godly preachers from SermonIndex to support their ministry. We have submitted a public statement I made on another thread on the Church of wells on SermonIndex to this website.

You can read part of the About page here:

This website exists in order to make a statement regarding the claims of association with biblical teachers ”“ both historical (John Knox, Thomas Brooks, Richard Baxter, John Bunyan, James Renwick, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, George Whitefield, David Brainerd, Charles Spurgeon, et al.) and more modern (Arthur W. Pink, A. W. Tozer, Rolfe Barnard, Leonard Ravenhill, Paul Washer, et al.) ”“ made by The Church of Wells in an effort to provide credibility for their ministry.

The Church of Wells uses portraits, links, articles, sermons, and other media from these godly men on its website in an attempt to build for themselves a credibility by association. The only credibility they have attained, however, is a false one. The historic figures to whom The Church of Wells appeals would never have associated themselves with the CoW’s teaching or practice; and some of those who are still living have even requested complete disassociation from the CoW, its ministry, and its website. Unfortunately, such requests have often been denied or ignored.

http://www.thechurchofwells.org/discerning-the-church-of-wells/

Here is a link to the public statements:
http://www.thechurchofwells.org/statements-concerning-church-wells/

Paul washer has repeated a few warnings on twitter about the group, this is unusual for him to do that and also for myself to speak out. I believe it is the mercy of God to these young Elders that God would get a hold of them and show them the error of their ways.

H

Heydave May 1, 2014

I'm sorry but I have a major problem with this website that calls out the CoW. As much as I think the CoW is in error, I also see the people behind the website in error.

Instead of genuinely reaching out to these young folk (who in their zeal have wandered into extremes) and try to understand where they are coming from, they are just pushing them further into a corner with an extreme reaction and disassociation, shouting 'cult'.
The other thing is, this website makes a big issue out of the fact that the CoW believes you can loose your salvation. So they are just pushing their 'Reformed' position and claiming that anyone who believes differently is heretical. There are many men of God (even featured on this site) who believe the scriptures warn repeatedly about the possibility of loosing salvation if you do not continue in Christ. So are all of us who hold that position a 'cult' too??

The other big issue I have is that some 'preachers' who are loud in their condemnation of the CoW are the very ones who preach the strong messages that can so easily be taken to extremes by young zealous people. These 'preachers' should have been looking to reach out and take some responsibility for some of their hard line preaching that may have contributed to this situation, rather than just distancing themselves from them. I wonder if it is just self preservation for fear of being associated with a group that may end up doing something really stupid.

K

KingJimmy May 1, 2014

I saw Paul washer put out a statement on twitter a few weeks ago. I thought it was curious. What's their deal?

H

havok20x May 1, 2014

Heydave,

I live 20 minutes from the Church of Wells.

Brother Greg would be in the wrong if he were bad-mouthing them and maligning them; however, to point out error is not wrong.

Paul did it in Galatians in regards to Peter--he even told the exact circumstance and who was involved. Would you be telling Paul that he was wrong for pointing out Peter's error to the church in Galatia?

Obviously Brother Greg would like to see them restored to Orthodoxy and all the members of that Church to follow the Lord, our True Shepherd.

Heresy is a real issue and we have grown childish in our understanding of the word of God and how it is to be applied--to the point that we are almost incapable of discerning what is truth and what is heresy. There is a truth and it is right, which means everything that does not conform to the truth is a lie.

H

Heydave May 1, 2014

havok20x,

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am not accusing Brother Greg of anything. What I disagree with is the CARM website and I don't think Greg is behind that.

I agree with you that error needs to be pointed out and I in no way endorse the Church of Wells. However as I understand it, it is not a matter of doctrine per se. It is more the fact of how they have interpreted and applied doctrine and a spiritual pride.

My issue is that there is a degree of hypocrisy in ones who have preached very strong messages that appear to have influenced this group, now are quick to condemn them for taking it to an extreme they never intended. There should be some accountability for what we preach and it is easy to over emphasise a point to the degree some may take it too literally.

Here's something from the website that I think is way off beam.
In establishing that they think that the CoW believes in salvation by works they say:
"Anyone who seeks in any way to be made right with God by keeping the law, which includes loving God (Deut. 6:5) and loving your neighbor (Lev. 19:18), is cursed."

So according to the CARM website loving God and loving your neighbour are works of the law. In this regard they are diametrically opposed to the teaching of Christ, who stated that these are the greatest commandments and are expected to be the fruit of true Christians. This is typical of the over emphasised reformed teaching of salvation by faith alone. They cannot see that you cannot separate faith and works produced by faith. That's why Luther did not like the book of James, he didn't understand it.

T

TMK May 1, 2014

Does anyone have a list or know which specific beliefs held by this group are considered to be heretical? I know nothing about them and it is not clear from the linked website what strange things they believe.

sermonindex May 1, 2014

Brothers,

I agree that I usually do not endorse or am happy with any type of discernment website that just maligns, slanders and speakings ill of christians who have some questionable practices. To me the Church of Wells is not as much a doctrinal problem as a social and manipulative controlling problem.

They have caused much hurt to people in the Name of Christ and have separated many godly families that I personally know of. To me that they teach you can lose your salvation is a part of the problem. I do believe one can lose their salvation but they teach it in such a harsh, strong way that they have people literally scared and therefore it is easy to control them. They end up making it seem if anyone leaves the church they will lose their salvation and walk away from the truth.

Once they have people in Wells with them they start to control all aspects of their life. People are never allowed to go on their own to make decisions for themselves, they must always be with others in the Church for most things. Alot of the money everyone makes is controlled by the Church, which can be fine for a christian community but they use it to control people for their ends.

It is just 100% clear to me that they have caused MUCH hurt to MANY godly christians that I know and are 100% in the public eye making quite strong mistakes with certain things they are doing. Groups like this will hasten persecution on other groups of true believers that are following the Lord whole-heartily.

Again, this is one of the first times I have made a public stance like this with a statement. Paul Washer's heartcry group helped to assemble the website. They have hurt many godly families in the open air preaching community also therefore brother Paul knows many who have been HURT also by this.

If I am wrong in this brethren please clearly help me to see why. I do have a heart for these young men to repent and change their ways. They have rejected correction from many godly Elders and godly Preachers such as Keith Daniel who they admired GREATLY and he corrected them, so they rejected him.

I did have the 2 main elders travel with me so I could try and help them by just being with them for 2 weeks because back then I already sensed they were over-zealous and needed balance. So I tried to passively help them by bringing them with me to Ireland and Wales. Sadly at the end of the trip they corrected me and in a sense dis-fellowshipped me.

H

Heydave May 1, 2014

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with most of what you have written and you know these people, I don't. I suppose I just don't like the tone of that website.

Regarding the CoW,in these types of set ups it is normally one particular individual leader that is the main controlling influence. I have my feelings as to which one that is based on things I have viewed about them and I expect you may also have thoughts on this. It would be good to pray that the Lord breaks the hold this one has and opens the eyes of the others to see what the reality is.

sermonindex May 1, 2014

I have my feelings as to which one that is based on things I have viewed about them and I expect you may also have thoughts on this. It would be good to pray that the Lord breaks the hold this one has and opens the eyes of the others to see what the reality is.

Sean Morris.

Do pray for Him and that the Lord would unveil his heart and eyes to see the wrong way he is on. May God have abundant great mercy.

M

mattf12486 May 1, 2014

My 2 friends have been captured and are still bound by the church of wells teaching. My friend Taylor has never responded to any of my texts or emails ever since I rebuked him for his error and pleaded with him to reconsider. My brother has been in contact with Taylor but reasoning from the scriptures with him is virtually impossible. He's "perfected" his faith and is not able to receive from anyone other than the church of wells. Everyone who disagrees with COW is "walking in darkness" and won't "come to the light."

My brother believes that the COW theology is based upon hebrews 10:26 and you are kept in a state of constant fear of your salvation. My brother told me that when he spoke with Taylor that he stated the doctrine of eternal security is heretical and doesn't allow you to properly "fear God." This church has slipped into satanic teaching and only the Lord can set them free.

sermonindex May 1, 2014

HeyDave said:

"I suppose I just don't like the tone of that website."

I respect and trust brother Greg implicitly in his concerns and discernment so my comment has nothing to do with brother Greg.

But I tend to agree with HeyDave...the tone, the very concept of going to such public lengths with an "anti' website just doesn't feel right.

Perhaps Gamaliel the Pharisee got it right when he said, "We should keep away from these men for now. We should leave them alone. I can guarantee that if the plan they put into action is of human origin, it will fail...."

T

TMK May 1, 2014

Quote:
"My brother told me that when he spoke with Taylor that he stated the doctrine of eternal security is heretical and doesn't allow you to properly "fear God." This church has slipped into satanic teaching and only the Lord can set them free."

Ok from what I have read the group seems very cultish. And I certainly don't agree that the doctrine of eternal security is heretical BUT NOR do I think it is heretical to believe that a person can lose their salvation. That is not a "satanic" teaching.

This is an area where reasonable and spirit filled minds of believers may disagree.

Apart from their mind control and weird antics are there other strange doctrinal points that the CoW believes?

O

Oracio May 1, 2014

brother HeyDave, I understand and am in agreement in part with your concerns here. I will try to share my two cents on some of your concerns. It is in a spirit of grace that I want to reply to your sincere concerns brother because I think it's important.You wrote:

this website makes a big issue out of the fact that the CoW believes you can loose your salvation. So they are just pushing their 'Reformed' position and claiming that anyone who believes differently is heretical. There are many men of God (even featured on this site) who believe the scriptures warn repeatedly about the possibility of loosing salvation if you do not continue in Christ. So are all of us who hold that position a 'cult' too??

I am in agreement with you on that brother. I believe it was unwise for the creators of that site and others to make such a big deal of belief in the loss of salvation. That is not an essential issue. But I also agree with brother Greg that this group takes that view to an extreme.

Some have asked what exactly is heretical about their teachings and/or practices. For the most part what most have been aware of is their cultish practices of separating godly families. That is crystal clear based on all the testimonies of many who've been involved and hurt.

Regarding their teachings, I find a number of serious errors. I'll point out two which I believe are very serious. The first has to do with their extreme view of the loss of salvation. They believe one can lose their salvation by committing any known, or what they term "willful" sins, even if it's something like telling a lie. You can clearly hear this teaching in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Mvdg3kUMc

The second error has to do with their view of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They believe that one can have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and still be lost and on their way to hell if they sin. You can hear that teaching in that same video also. To be honest I've never heard of any groups believing or teaching such a thing. With just those two errors in their teaching, and given their cultish practices, I believe they have been led astray and are outside of historic orthodox Christianity.

You wrote

I'm sorry but I have a major problem with this website that calls out the CoW. As much as I think the CoW is in error, I also see the people behind the website in error.
Instead of genuinely reaching out to these young folk (who in their zeal have wandered into extremes) and try to understand where they are coming from, they are just pushing them further into a corner with an extreme reaction and disassociation, shouting 'cult'.

my brother, we do not know for sure whether or not the producers of that site tried reaching out to the CoW in accordance with biblical procedures first before creating that site. Also, even if they didn't approach them privately first, being that this group's teachings and practices are evidently heretical and cultish, I'm not sure they wouldn't be justified in creating that site for awareness. For example, I don't believe it's necessary for us to consult the Mormons or JWs before publicly denouncing their teachings.

You wrote:

The other big issue I have is that some 'preachers' who are loud in their condemnation of the CoW are the very ones who preach the strong messages that can so easily be taken to extremes by young zealous people. These 'preachers' should have been looking to reach out and take some responsibility for some of their hard line preaching that may have contributed to this situation, rather than just distancing themselves from them. I wonder if it is just self preservation for fear of being associated with a group that may end up doing something really stupid.

Brother, I think regarding this I will have to respectfully disagree. I believe the CoW should take full responsibility for their errors. The brothers whom you are referring to may very well be completely innocent in this matter. They may very well have simply been faithful to their calling. And it's possible that CoW has wrongfully taken things to an extreme for whatever reason.

I've seen this kind of thing happen with the ministry of Ray Comfort and the revival of open air preaching which the Lord has used him to help bring about. Many have taken Ray's teaching on the need for preaching the Law to bring the knowledge of sin to an extreme. And some have started open air preaching groups that are hateful and heretical. They attribute their beginnings to Ray's ministry, but they have gone to unbiblical extremes. And it's not Ray's fault.

Respectfully,
Oracio

M

mattf12486 May 1, 2014

The problem is that the COW is actively recruiting people to go there and are masquerading as a sound "biblical church." Many people have already privately reached out to them but to no avail. This website is needed in order to warn the unsuspecting/undiscerning of the dangerous leaven that is within the teachings of the COW.

sermonindex May 1, 2014

Perhaps Gamaliel the Pharisee got it right when he said, "We should keep away from these men for now. We should leave them alone. I can guarantee that if the plan they put into action is of human origin, it will fail...."

Also the problem is if you young daughter or other child were involved in the group and turned your child against you in the name of the Bible and Scripture. I know of many families personally in this situation with them and they are very godly christians, but not godly enough because they are not in Wells learning the teachings from these 3 young elders.

The problem is that the COW is actively recruiting people to go there and are masquerading as a sound "biblical church."

I agree with that also brother, they have been connecting with brethren even on SI and other places that have true sold out believers.

T

TMK May 1, 2014

It is incredible how people get sucked into such nonsense. Almost like a street gang.

M

mattf12486 May 1, 2014

I believe the idea that one can lose their salvation is a horrible error and the way the church of wells uses this to manipulate others is indeed satanic.

O

Oracio May 1, 2014

I wrote

The second error has to do with their view of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They believe that one can have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and still be lost and on their way to hell if they sin.

Thought I should clarify a bit on that. They believe you can be lost and on your way to hell and at the same time be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They consider Christians who are in such a supposed state to be in darkness.

sermonindex May 1, 2014

Also the problem is if you young daughter or other child were involved in the group and turned your child against you in the name of the Bible and Scripture. I know of many families personally in this situation with them and they are very godly christians, but not godly enough because they are not in Wells learning the teachings from these 3 young elders.

I hear you brother Greg and I would be just as upset if these allegations are true as they are made out to be. But that's not really how the website comes across...perhaps there should be more plainly stated detail about the dangerous way they are holding people "hostage" and dividing them against their families. I think some of the things you have said on this thread would be very beneficial to be repeated on that website? At the moment the website tone comes across along the lines that certain people are upset that their names are being associated. Yet when you explain on this forum the real issues at stake it changes the whole tone. I hope that makes sense?

H

havok20x May 1, 2014

Brothers, let's reason together about this:

The book of Jude and also 2 peter chapter 2, the book of galatians, the book of colossians, the book of 1 corinthians, the book of Luke (and by extension Acts), the book of 1 john, revelation 2-3 and several other chapters or verses of the new testament were written to do a few specific things:

1) to Solidify the truth
2) Call out and correct error
3) Show how the truth differs from the error
4) What to expect from the promoters of error
5) What the believers' response should be toward them

I know the website is not scripture. That is obvious. But to have a website that calls them out is not wrong. It just isn't. And I don't think the spirit of the website is to create an anti-website. It is a warning to believers. A good one too, because it balances a warning and a desire for restoration. Now I think theologically, there could be a lot more on that website, but I think we are trying to reign in that church not pick it apart (at least at this moment). It is clear that the founders do not desire to jump to excommunication and total rejection. They are reaching out.

*********************

The ONLY concern and reservation I have is this:

We know that the church of wells thrives on being rejected. If we do not play this right they will merely say to their members: "See! We are being persecuted and only true Christians get persecuted" and they will justify even more their hardness of heart and rejection of everyone.