https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2926
Overall a very good message by one of my new favorite preachers. "Marks of True Revival"...Richard Owen Roberts lays out a clear case for why Toronto and Brownsville were not true revivals. He touches on this in the first 10 minutes I believe, but whether or not you agree with him, the entire message is very profitable!
I wonder what Steve Hill would have said about that and I wonder what Dr brown would say about it at least in regard to Brownsville.
i was encouraged by His exhortation about cups. Oh that God would break me and make me more useful for Him. Praise God He is conforming us all into the image of His Son.
Psalm 23:5
New International Version (NIV)
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Agreed brother Greg, May God take this old cup, cleanse it, break it, remake it and cause it to overflow with His Spirit, this is the thrust of ROR's message. If we do not see these things happen then it is more likely than not that we have not experienced true revival.
I also was stunned to hear the Holy laughter account relayed from John Wesley's diary that both brothers, after seeking The Lord all day finally concluded the outburst from Charles was satanic in origin...and one reason that helped them to see this was that it kept them from prayer! Wow, that's gut wrenching honest and very bold, no doubt the reason why The Lord used these brothers so powerfully!!
TMK, I am sure they would disagree and I am sure many others would as well. I visited both places in the 90s and I have to admit that I am now somewhat in agreement with brother Richards statements. Not that I care to make a big deal of these two "revivals" either way, but rather by examining false revivals, as he does, this is very helpful for us to understand and cry out for what true revival looks like.
Awakened,
Where do you get that information about the wesley-brothers?
Brotherly greetings,
Wijnand
Where do you get that information about the wesley-brothers?
"May Fri. 9. 1740--I was a little surprised at some, who were buffeted of Satan in an unusual manner, by such a spirit of laughter as they could in no wise resist, though it was pain and grief unto them. I could scarce have believed the account they gave me, had I not known the same thing ten or eleven years ago. Part of Sunday my brother (Charles) and I then used to spend in walking in the meadows and singing psalms. But one day, just as we were beginning to sing, he burst out into a loud laughter. I asked him, if he was distracted; and began to be very angry, and presently after to laugh as loud as he. Nor could we possibly refrain, though we were ready to tear ourselves in pieces, but we were forced to go home without singing another line."
Wed. 21.--In the evening such a spirit of laughter was among us, that many were much offended. But the attention of all was fixed on poor L. S., whom we all knew to be no dissembler. One so violently and variously torn of the evil one did I never see before. Sometimes she laughed till almost strangled; then broke out into cursing and blaspheming; then stamped and struggled with incredible strength, so that four or five could scarce hold her: Then cried out, "O eternity, eternity! O that I had no soul! O that I had never been born!"
At last she faintly called on Christ to help her. And the violence of her pangs ceased." Most of our brethren and sisters were now fully convinced, that those who were under this strange temptation could not help it. Only E.B. and Anne H. were of another mind: being still sure, anyone might help laughing if she would. This they declared to many on Thursday; but on Friday, 23, God suffered Satan to teach them better. Both of them were suddenly seized in the same manner as the rest, and laughed whether they would or no, almost without ceasing. Thus they continued for two days, a spectacle to all; and were then, upon prayer made for them, delivered in a moment."
Pages 271-273 Works of John Wesley Vol 1.
Though I believe there is a spurious, there is also a great joy in the Holy Spirit that we should not reject.
I personally bear witness to the experience of John Hyde, one time after we travailed in a prayer meeting for lost souls for over an hour. At the end when we felt we prayed through there was a joy given and I found myself laughing as another brother, in a controlled sense and manner. It was a wonderful joy that the Lord heard the prayers and was pleased with us praying for those He longs to save.
Praying John Hyde: "How often has G_____, after most awful crying seemed to break through the hosts of evil and soar up into the presence of the Father! You could see the smile of God reflected in his face. Then he would laugh aloud in the midst of his prayer. It was the joy of a son reveling in the delight of his father's smile. God has been teaching John [Hyde] and me that his name is the God of Isaac””laughter… Rejoicing, laughing, the same word as Isaac. This holy laughter seemed to relieve the tension and give Heaven's own refreshment to wrestling spirits.”
Capt. E.G. Carre, ed., Praying Hyde: A Challenge to Prayer (Asheville, NC: Revival Literature, n.d.), 26.
A.W. Tozer: "Now I say that worship is subject to degrees of perfection and intensity. There have been those who worshiped God to the place where they were in ecstasies of worship. I once saw a man kneel at an altar, taking Communion. Suddenly he broke into holy laughter. This man laughed until he wrapped his arms around himself as if he was afraid he would bust just out of sheer delight in the presence of Almighty God. . . . So worship is capable of running from the very simple to the most intense and sublime.”
A.W. Tozer, Worship: The Missing Jewel (Camp Hill, PA: Christian Publications, 1992), 20-21.
Brother Mark,
Listening to this I only heard him speak about Toronto and Pensecola, but not Brownsville. I would have been interested in what he had to say about Brownsville as it is often reported as different to the other two and more geneuine. However I have always doubted that as there were some unbiblical things taking place i understand and based on the criteria ROR gives for true revival I would say that Brownsville fails the test also.
Brownsville Assembly is in Pensacola I believe. But I also have heard and read that Toronto was more egregious than Brownsville. No revival is perfect. But I know that very strong preaching took place at Brownsville because I have listened to many of the sermons. There was also deep repentance. Was there some fleshly exhibitions? Sure. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
TMK,
So are Brownsville and Pensecola one and the same in terms of events?
I always thought they were two different places and two seperate events! Just shows what I don't know! I Learnt something.
We should be judging revival or any move
of God not by the manifestations but by
the fruit.
Discernment is needed and obviously all
demonic manifestations should be dealt
with.
In revival history manifestations of laughing,
shaking, and fainting or what is known as
being slain in the spirit have occurred in
true revivals as well as the demonic.
Whenever man has attempted to steady the
ark, usually the Spirit has been quenched.
John Bevere, who wrote a book on the fear
of God was ministering in one of the
oriental countries when the Holy Spirit
moved in such a way that joy and laughter
came upon the people, a little later, the
fear of The Lord came upon the saints
and the laughter ceased.
I have been in meetings where there was
laughter taking place that was mostly in the
flesh, but I have also been in meetings
where it was the real deal.
Mike
,
I was in Toronto at the very beginning. It was something very special for the first several weeks. I saw more people openly repent of and confess sins than anything else. It particularly touched teens.
The meetings went from around 6 PM until 3 AM 7 days a week. I would get home at around 4 AM go to bed and be at work for 7:30 AM and not be the least bit tired, work all day and go again that night. My wife and i did this for the first 2 months at the Dixie Rd church. Every night was a who's who of the church as leaders came from all over to see what God was doing.
IMO everything changed at a meeting in a bible college in Toronto. From that point on it began to attract a different crowd and they began defending what was happening rather than just leaving it alone. I never went back after that and it changed drastically into manifestations for manifestations sake. It became a show from what others who visited told me.
I have read and heard many things from people who were not there themselves in the beginning. I remember the repentance, the crying, the unity and openness of 2 month when I went to a little church 7 days a week for 9 hours, only slept 3 hours a night and was not tired a single second of it. It was a wonderfull visitation.
Marc mc
Heydave-
Yes I believe they are the same event. I thought Brownsville was a place as well but it was the name of the church.
I have always been wary of holy laughter primarily because it has never happened to me ;)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
TMK
Quote:
Re:\t"Brownsville Assembly is in Pensacola I believe. But I also have heard and read that Toronto was more egregious than Brownsville. No revival is perfect. But I know that very strong preaching took place at Brownsville because I have listened to many of the sermons. There was also deep repentance. Was there some fleshly exhibitions? Sure. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water."
This is true. I was there at the early stage and deep repentance was THE ONLY message. I believe it changed later on when all the commercialization was occurring turning it into a machine. You definitely cannot throw out everything that happened there at the Brownsville Assembly of God
A topical article by Dr. Brown:
Marc,
Brother, I believe that you are spot on with
What you have shared on your experiences
at Toronto. I believe that it did start out as
a true move of God, but it got hijacked by
the enemy. The leadership bears much of
the responsibility for allowing manifestations
to become the focus. The Holy Ghost always
exalts and glorifies Jesus, and anytime we
make it about a particular sign and wonder
or a man, the Holy Spirit is grieved.
Mike
I was listening to a Derek Prince sermon and in it he said a friend of his went to Toronto and asked the Lord, "How much of this is of You?” And the Lord replied, "About 25%, which is more than what is going on in other churches.”
The Lord saw the positive side of 25% and wouldn't squash it; while we, mere humans beings, see the 75% and want to squash it dead. Just saying.
God bless,
Lisa
Lysa, I agree with you that there is a large
Segment of the Body of Christ that is so
obsessed with the counterfeit, that they are
missing out on what is truly of God. With
others. it is just the opposite, with them
anything supernatural is embraced as
coming from God . True discernment
discerns both the true and the false.
The Word exhorts us to "prove all things
and to hold fast to that which is good."
Mike
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