Would you consider an ex-evangelical pastor who converted to Roman-Catholicism as saved?

M

Mangan May 22, 2014

Would you consider an ex-evangelical pastor who converted to Roman-Catholicism as saved? Would you call him a brother in the faith or an apostate?

The reason for asking is that the answer to these questions used to be crystal clear a couple of decades ago. Today however, some progressive evangelicals seems to applaud the growing number of evangelicals who crosses the Tiber. They do not even hesitate to call them brothers in the Lord.

So what's your opinion?

Sincerely Magnus

D

DEADn May 22, 2014

A question like this gets easily fogged up because of the intro to Catholicism. Intro that term and many hardcore Christians will cry FALSE or HERETIC.

I think it boils down to this. Find out what this ex evangelical pastor believes about his salvation, not about the church,but about his salvation and you will find your answer. Catholicism tends to create fuzzy lines in these kinds of situations.

sermonindex May 22, 2014

in love, this is the kind of hypothetical what if question, that only serves as the genesis for a potentially ugly divisive cyber scum, edifying nobody, and bringing reproach to the forum.

there is discussion, and then there is bait, this is the latter. Religious "opinions" have been the wellspring of rivers of blood for centuries.

M

Mangan May 22, 2014

With all due respect: My intention with the question is sincere and I did not post it in order to condemn catholics as such. I'm just asking for the opinions of others in the forum of what they think when it comes to evangelicals who crosses the Tiber.

Sincerely Magnus

M

MaryJane May 22, 2014

Greetings Mangan

Edit: I withdraw my question. After praying on this I have to say this isn't a thread I feel led to take part in right now.

God bless
maryjane

S

Solomon101 May 22, 2014

With all due respect, why don't you just ask Ulf himself?

There are far to many individual variables in why any particular person makes such life decisions. There is no way a person could know that other persons heart without being personally acquainted with them, reading or hearing what they specifically say, or asking them directly. You certainly won't get an accurate idea about what happened with Ulf by asking a forum predominately used by Canadians and Americans. imho.

As a personal matter I don't have any way to understand the decision to go back to Rome. I minister in a community that, according to the 2010 census, reports themselves to be 98% practicing Catholic. I just received a letter from the district verifying that information. I am told it is the highest catholic concentration outside the Vatican. As a rule I have seen a great deal of damage done by the Catholic "faith". I see it destroying people beyond measure every week. However, there are a few (Very, very few!) shining lights of born again believers within its darkness. I think the ones I have seen that stayed within the Catholic church after a true born again experience, or who swam the Tiber to return, did so to bring light to others within that darkness. Most do not make it and eventually are dragged back into the superstition and idolatry. However, some aren't and are much like missionaries in a Muslim world ... except it is the Catholic world.

That being said, I don't understand the decision to swim the Tiber at all. However, each circumstance is totally different and we can't throw all of them into the same bag and judge them identically. Each person would have to be judged on their unique set of circumstances. That is why I suggest that the only way to get an answer for your question is from the guy who actually did it.

Ultimately only Ulf knows for certain why he has made the decisions he has. Ultimately only Ulf knows for certain if he truly heard from God or not. Guys and girls reading Sermon Index forums from North America have no idea what God has or has not spoken to him or what is in his heart.....although several think they do.

M

Mangan May 22, 2014

Solomon, did I mention Ulf? My question was general and I assume that there are US and Canadian counterparts. I think everyone here would be familiar with Scott Hahn.

Magnus

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PaulWest May 22, 2014

I would consider anyone - Catholic or Protestant - who is not genuinely born-again of the Holy Spirit to be unsaved. A better question might therefore be: "Can a born-again child of God convert to Roman Cathlolicism?"

There is no clear, objective answer to this -- just opinions.

S

Solomon101 May 22, 2014

Hello Mangus -

You stated

Solomon, did I mention Ulf? My question was general and I assume that there are US and Canadian counterparts. I think everyone here would be familiar with Scott Hahn.

No, you did not mention Ulf by name. However, he was in your thinking on the topic wasn't he?

It would seem that the things I wrote apply to anyone. Ulf, Scott Hahn, or anyone else.

I stated

There are far to many individual variables in why any particular person makes such life decisions. There is no way a person could know that other persons heart without being personally acquainted with them, reading or hearing what they specifically say, or asking them directly.

and

I don't understand the decision to swim the Tiber at all. However, each circumstance is totally different and we can't throw all of them into the same bag and judge them identically. Each person would have to be judged on their unique set of circumstances. That is why I suggest that the only way to get an answer for your question is from the guy who actually did it.

It seems to me that is true whether you are talking about Ulf, Scott Hahn, or anyone else on the planet that makes the decisions they have.

Your original question stated

Would you consider an ex-evangelical pastor who converted to Roman-Catholicism as saved? Would you call him a brother in the faith or an apostate?

You are asking people to give their opinions and judgements upon a persons eternal life or eternal damnation. These opinions would be from people who are in absolute and total ignorance of the individuals they are passing eternal internet judgements on. You are further asking for that opinion based upon nothing other than that they apparently "converted to Catholicism". There is no way people should be dishing out opinions about such things concerning people they know absolutely nothing about .... no matter who it is. Thus my thoughts about you only being able to get the actual truth from the person who made that decision. Anything else will consist of nothing but gossip , speculation, and opinions.

Hopefully that clarifies what I intended. These thoughts would apply to anyone. However, it would seem apparent that Ulf would be one in the forefront of your thinking. If not I apologize for assuming that. However, the thoughts would apply to whomever was being considered... Ulf, Scott Hahn,or any person it might be.

M

Mangan May 22, 2014

Solomon! My question is general and hypothetical. I'm not asking people to judge certain individuals.
I'm just asking if one would consider a former evangelical pastor converting to Roman Catholicsm and accepting all its teachings on the sacraments (and in particular the eucharist) and so forth as saved?

To be sure only God knows who is saved.

Magnus

sermonindex May 22, 2014

I had a friend who was once a solid evangelical. Even trained at a leading evangelical seminary. He converted to the Orthodox Church. When I ask him why. He said the Orthodox Church deepened his experience with Christ.

I am seeing this same trend with those who are embracing Messianic Judiasm. Those who embrace the Jewish Hebrew roots movement claim a richer experience with Christ.

Perhaps the same can be said for those evangelicals who cross the Tiber. I cannot comment on their salvation. But somewhere such people are seeing that Jesus Himself is not enough and feel they need an experience with religion. This is sad.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster

T

TMK May 22, 2014

Prior to the Reformation there wasn't much choice other than RC.

So were any of those folks saved?

I would say yes, if they were a disciple of Jesus Christ.

L

leftbehind May 22, 2014

I believe that there were some Catholics saved in the past and who had more doctrinal accuracy... Some people just like the name association and benefits associated with the title of Catholic. For some it's like purchasing the name-brand shoes and clothing, which brings increased access. That doesn't make it right. Some people are saved; just misguided and in need of further training that others don't want to implement. Like a promiscuous lifestyle that may produce a disease, STD, or virus, there are so much epidemic strains of the doctrines and evangelicals today. IT used to be very black and white but now there's much confusion. Only God knows truly and absolutely. Kinda like the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

Postmodern Catholics are questionable. This reveals a need for a return to biblical Christianity and ecclesiastical/moral separation. IF we don't know 100%, I would present it as a caution or warning prayerfully. Watch and pray. We don't want to give railing accusations, be slanderers, be gossips, become heresy hunters, be overcritical, be sinfully over-judgmental, ... What if we were in their shoes (rhetorical question)?

I"m sure there were other smaller groups and pockets of saved individuals along the way including the disciples themselves in the bible. Jesus is all! Here are a few other familiar ones that God used:

The Montanists

The Novatians

The Donatists

The Britons

The Celtic Churches Of Ireland

The Paulicians

The Petrobrussians

The Albigenses

The Waldenses

The Anabaptists

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PaulWest May 22, 2014

Prior to the Reformation there wasn't much choice other than RC.
So were any of those folks saved?
I would say yes, if they were a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Yes, precisely. Prior to Martin Luther, what was there? The RCC was the ubiquitious religious institution. Over the centuries there were various men and women who shone for Christ and displayed a very deep sensitivity for the gospel and the love of God to a lost world. Of these, we can mention luminaries like Fenlon, St. John of the Cross, Guyon, Martin Boos, Savanrola, Brother Lawrence. For the most part, these saints were persecuted by the very institution (the RCC) they so ardently sought to remain faithful to and support. In other words, they refused to leave the "Mother Church", but many preached the gospel just as fearlessly as Whitefield and John Wesley, and some, like Savanrola, were martyred for it.

Of course, the objection that the abovementioned men and women were nothing but apostate mystics will be sounded by some, but that shouldn't matter. Non-RCC Men like Ravenhill, Tozer, John Wesley and others have been influenced by and attest to the authenticity of their ministries, and even writing mini-bios on some of their lives. Plus, some of their sermons and writings are featured here, on SermonIndex.

Salvation is not about being a part of or not being part of the RCC, or being Southern Baptist or Pentecostal or Lutheran or any denominational or nondenominational system for that matter. It is about the advent of the New Birth, which, in itself, is a very mysterious thing! Jesus Himself didn't go into very much detail when asked about it by Nicodemus. He likened it unto the mysterious "blowing of a wind" that no one could precipitate, prognosticate or prevent. If this "blowing" doesn't occur on an individual, then his or her RCC, Presbyterian or Anglican church affiliation is absolutely meaningless.

So the question again must be asked: Can the "blowing" of the Holy Spirit on an individual occur within the confines of the RCC? If the answer is no, then we must objectively prove the stance, which of course is impossible. I've discovered that people who make such blanket sweeps in judgment somehow assume the wind blows on denominations and on church steeples rather than on individuals hungering for God and following Christ in a way different from their own.

T

TMK May 22, 2014

Good one Paul!

M

Mangan May 22, 2014

Just to reiterate: The question is not whether there are catholics who are saved (I assume there might be millions who are saved in spite of RC not because of its teachings) but whether a former evangelical pastor who changes his views and fully accepts all the Roman teachings (for instance the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist as only valid in the RC through the sacrament of the priesthood and necessary for your salvation) should be consider a brother in the Lord.

Magnus

sermonindex May 22, 2014

I'm just asking if one would consider a former evangelical pastor converting to Roman Catholicsm and accepting all its teachings on the sacraments (and in particular the eucharist) and so forth as saved?

As one brother stated one could be deceived and still in some way saved yet hurting and grieving Christ and being an example to the possible hurt of many other believers as well-known evangelical pastors have become who convert to Catholicism.

Also once the trust is put in the Roman church or in the Roman sacrament and not in the blood of Christ alone then yes it is possible for one to lose their salvation by putting their hope is something else then Christ. Can there be those in the Roman system that are saved, absolutely. Many are not able to read bibles themselves but some of them could have trust in Christ alone and the Roman church is all they know.

Overall we must not agree with or endorse any believers joining the Roman Catholic church, they do not represent Christianity and they do not represent the truth of the Gospel.

I fully agree with other brothers posts and brother Paul's post that before the reformation most of the believers were in the system of the worsening Catholic system, thus there were true believers though some left the Church others did stay in it and were still of Christ.

P

PaulWest May 22, 2014

Just to reiterate: The question is not whether there are catholics who are saved (I assume there might be millions who are saved in spite of RC not because of its teachings) but whether a former evangelical pastor who changes his views and fully accepts all the Roman teachings (for instance the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist as only valid in the RC through the sacrament of the priesthood and necessary for your salvation) should be consider a brother in the Lord.

Again, brother, this question presupposes the pastor was saved based on his former evangelicalism, for I think the fact that he now is relying upon the Eucharist for his salvation (based upon your premise), indicates he was never genuinely born-again to begin with. "These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us." (I John 2:19)

Perhaps I am wrong, but I cannot grasp how a person can have a saving, biblical knowledge of the truth via authentic Holy Spirit illumination and then turn to the Eucharist salvifically. I would seriously question if he ever knew Jesus Christ to begin with.

L

leftbehind May 22, 2014

"...grasp how a person can have a saving, biblical knowledge of the truth via authentic Holy Spirit illumination and then turn to the Eucharist salvifically. I would seriously question if he ever knew Jesus Christ to begin with."

I agree.

It's true some people were never saved to begin with.

M

Mangan May 23, 2014

Well, suppose that this hypothetical ex-evangelical pastor came to his catholic conclusion through a revelation from God and through biblical studies where he saw that the catholic dogmas was according to the Word of God. Suppose also that this hypothetical person considers the conversion not so much leaving protestantism as coming into the fuller expression of the faith in the Church that Jesus founded.

When the person says he needs the eucharist for his salvation that salvation is grounded in the finnished work of Christ on the Cross which gives validity to the priestly sacrifice in the mass. And when the person worships the sacramental bread that person do not longer consider the hostia as bread but as the living Christ himself bodily present. And further more all this comes to life and reality through faith and so on.

Such a person would clearly see himself as saved..

Take heed lest you fall: Romanism is on the move in our secularized western countries attracting a lot of people who are tired of shallow worship and lack of historical roots.

Sincerely Magnus