rainydaygirl
Jun 4, 2014
i have my own thoughts on this but would really like to hear what others have to say?
rdg
i have my own thoughts on this but would really like to hear what others have to say?
rdg
Vines is not evangelical, and that is now more of a buzzword to create a demographic to be manipulated than it is anything substantive.
The Bible never puts the Earth as an object around which the sun revolves, so the point made that accepting Earth's solar orbit as a fact not harming Scriptural authority is senselessly made.
The article simply repeats the mantra of orientation as fact. Like global warming, the idea is to say it often enough that people accept it as fact. And, even if it were, people are oriented to every sin under the sun. So, homosexuality is not special, not equal to skin color or gender (which, if you want to change those too, now, you can if you can afford it).
1) sex, (homosexual or heterosexual) outside of marriage is fornication
2) per the Bible, and more specifically, Jesus, marriage is between a male and a female.
3) therefore, there is no legitimate expression for homosexual sex.
Is this a hard thing? Indeed. Celibacy can be a hard thing. The question is whether being obedient to The Lord is worth it. Celibacy for a homosexual must be a sacrifice and an act of worship.
Some may say that is not fair, i.e. Homosexuals can't get married but heterosexuals can. But there are many areas where there are other areas where one group may do something and another may not and it has nothing to do with fairness, the kosher food laws for example.
That article is deeply disturbing. It is promoting eisegesis (reading into the scriptures) instead of exegesis (letting the scriptures speak to us).
Just look at some of what they are saying:
"Male-male sex in the ancient world was episodic. It was mainly young boys with older men or male slaves and masters. It was not mutual. These were not relationships, they were not marriage and they were not meant to turn into marriage."
Maybe Romans isn't in his bible, because chapter 1 clearly shows that the act alone--not the periodicity of the act--is shameful.
or how about this:
"This is not a matter of molding biblical teaching to satisfy a personal belief. Both Vines and Brownson hold a "high view" of Scripture, meaning it is the final authority on all matters of faith and life. They oppose unbiblical divorce and premarital sex, for example. But Brownson says, "The issue of sexual orientation represents new data that the church needs to ask itself, 'Should this change the way we look at this?'"The church has done this before on issues ranging from slavery to the solar system.
Vines writes, "Christians did not change their minds about (the sun revolving around the Earth) because they lost respect for … the authority of Scripture. They changed their minds because they were confronted with evidence their predecessors had never considered.""
So this isn't a moral issue? Because the bible makes it clear that the act of homosexuality is, indeed, a moral issue. Again, see Romans.
...they will no longer endure sound doctrine...
TMK,
I agree with some of what you said. However, same-sex attraction in and of itself is sinful. It isn't just the outward manifestation. God is not just interested in our outward actions, but the core of our motivations.
It is dangerous to separate the two. All immoral actions are a result of a corruption of the heart, no just merely a disobedience to some rules.
If I hate my brother, but just don't stab him to death when I want to, I am not good or fixed. I am still guilty before God.
I used to dip snuff all the time. By the grace of God, I haven't done it in a long time; however, the battle is not won until my heart is changed. To be honest, there are days where I really want to do that; but I try not to say to myself, "as long as I don't do it, I am good." Because if temptation comes and I begin to desire it, then I know I need to be submitting myself to the Lord right then. Not because I have committed the outward act, but because I could so easily fall back into a pattern of doing that, again. I not only need Jesus to change my outward actions, but to correct the defective heart so that when my flesh desires it, I can effectively put it down.
If we teach something different, then we'll end up with a bunch of legalists who honor the Lord with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.
We need to be careful here.
Temptation is not sin. Being tempted to lust is not sin, lusting is. It is possible to be tempted to indulge in sexual fantasy and to say "no" and set your mind on Christ.
In doesn't matter what perversion Satan is tempting you with, temptation is not sin. It is true that the fact that so many are tempted with homosexuality is evidence of gross immorality and sin in our culture:
Ephesians 5:12
For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.
however, it is not sinful to be "attracted" or to endure temptation to lust after the same sex. When people use the term "same-sex attraction," I don't think they mean those who actively lust after the same sex, but those who are tempted to do so.
This is important because Satan constantly accuses the brothers, telling them that they have already sinned and might as well go one step further. Telling people that their battle against temptation is still sin runs the risk of condemning believers who are resisting the devil in a time of trial, but have not yet had the devil flee from them.
I don't disagree with you in principle- at all.
The problem is that I really believe (if you believe gay persons who seem to be honest) that from a very young age they had a sense that they were different and had a different sort of attraction. My wife's brother, who was a homosexual, says he knew when he was 5 or 6.
I really do believe that there may be some biological basis for this. Sure there are definitely environmental factors. But the science is pretty good that there may be some genetic component.
None of this makes a difference because there still is no excuse to ACT OUT on impulse. I think I do disagree with you about the FEELING of being a homosexual. To me, that is a temptation. If the temptation is not acted on, it is not sin.
An analogous situation is alcoholism. There is a genetic component that makes one predisposed or unable to process alcohol. This does not give them a pass to drink. And the desire to drink, like your desire to dip, is not a sin. It just isn't. It isn't a sin until your take the drink or put a dip between yer cheek n gum.
I think we are on shaky ground to say that someone who is struggling with homosexual feelings BUT ISN'T acting on those feelings is still sinning. I don't think so.
Can God deliver them from these feelings? Absolutely yes I believe. But he may choose not to for his own purpose, just like he did not remove Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I was speaking more about lust. Thank you for the clarification.
I agree havoc- if temptation crosses over into lust (i.e. if we are dreaming about it- wishing it- imagining it, consumed by it, going out of our way to think about it)-- absolutely we have sinned.
TMK wrote:
"I really do believe that there may be some biological basis for this. Sure there are definitely environmental factors. But the science is pretty good that there may be some genetic component."
The problem with this is it is not biblical. If you accept that homosexuality or being sexually actracted to the same sex is genetic and not a sin in itself, you accuse God of making people gay! The bible condemns not just the act but the desire. God condemns the effiminate as well as the practising homosexual. This is true of all sin. The lie of the world is "we cannot help it, I was born this way. It's in my genes". So are you genetically prone to immorality, drunkeness, stealing, lying, etc, etc??
You could argue yes, because we inherit Adam's genes. But God still holds us accountable for our own sin. Blaming Adam's genes won't wash! Didn't Jesus say it is not just the act, but the thought and desire? If I have hatred in my heart it us the same as murder. If I have lust in my heart it is the same as fornication or adultery. Men can love men in genuine love as they can women, but homosexuality is not about loving, it is about having a physical attraction (lust) for a man, which is condemned. There is no provision for this, like there is for hetrosexual attraction (marriage), because it is a perversion of God's creation.
Edit: Addition......If someone no longer has any desire of thoughts about a physical attraction with the same sex, he is no longer a homosexual. What makes one gay is that they desire this. The gay community hate it when someone says they have been 'cured' or are no longer gay, because it destroys their whole 'gene' argument and that you are born gay and will always be gay. God's word says no! You can repent and turn from sin and be set free from the sin of homosexuality.
We may be genetically framed to be predisposed to certain appetites. But, that's a long way from causation in actually indulging them. It is even further away from explaining a person's rejection of outside information that weigh heavily against that appetite. It is far away from explaining his moral judgments that swing the gate open to indulge that appetite in the face of moral pressure and knowledge that contradict that appetite.
Geneticists have actually located a variation on a specific gene that, they say, explains variations in the preference for the taste of sweets. One study also says that same genetic variation is connected with a person's desire to drink alcohol.
So, if homosexuals are right that they are innately homosexual, created by God to be as they are and follow their genetically predisposed appetites for homosexual sex, then obese alcoholic diabetics who litter their homes with Hershey's wrappers and empty Bud Light bottles are simply being who God made them to be. There is an upshot to this.
Here it is: The very culture who so condemns the overweight as gluttons who can manage their appetites, and in fact have a public health duty to do so to the point that government is increasingly regulating our diets, wholly accepts and approves homosexuality. The very culture who spends billions of dollars each year to combat alcoholism, to treat alcoholics, to arrest and imprison alcoholics who drive intoxicated, wholly accepts and approves homosexuality. They prove that they are a "law unto themselves", much as Paul wrote about Gentiles' living the principles of the Law without having the written Law. They prove that they are establishing a moral law of their own making and that genetic predisposition is really not their concern, but is their convenient cover.
The actual truth is not whether homosexuals are "born this way", but whether if born this way, a moral decision must be made about their own appetites, one that contradicts that appetite. And, THAT choice is not genetic at all. It is spiritual. And, anyone who is born again, quickened to spiritual life by the Holy Spirit of God, has one response: reject homosexuality because the Word of God reveals that God is not glorified in it, that God's image is not reflected in it, that God's Spirit and God's Word oppose it to the point that no one who engages in it inherits the kingdom of God in Christ. The world, being natural and dead in their transgressions, may divide on the question with motivations which are all unholy and profane even if they reject homosexuality. But, the idea that we are programmed and cannot do other than as we are programmed is completely false, flatly antibiblical and it is anti-world since (as pointed out above) the world makes decisions about what appetites are "good" or "bad" all the time in spite of the supposed genetic influence of those appetites.
We are all born into sin. We are all wicked from the beginning, as the Scriptures clearly teach.
This is why regeneration is such an important doctrine. Because if we believe that Jesus Christ is solely concerned about the transformation of our outward actions, then we enter into a kind of spirituality that is not spritual at all. It is all carnal. Everything is about the way that the world perceives us and about our performance.
But God knows the heart. He is interested in not only changing our outward actions, but also changing the heart of the man that causes those outward actions.
Let's use the example of murdering, again. If I hate someeone, but choose not to kill them. That is not worship. That is not a sacrifice. That isn't even righteous. My heart is still full of wickedness; however, I just haven't allowed it to manifest.
This is why when we witness to people who don't know the Lord, but have quit drinking, quit doing drugs, and started acting good, that we STILL tell them that they stand guilty before a holy God. The root cause of the problem has not been fixed.
Jesus' death on the cross was not purely substitionary atonement. He purchased us by His blood, washed us clean, and is transforming us daily. There is more to the Gospel than just forgiveness and ceasing of outward sinful actions.
Where is the like button again? Good word, havok. Good word.
Quote: "If you accept that homosexuality or being sexually actracted to the same sex is genetic and not a sin in itself, you accuse God of making people gay! "
Well, God "makes" people in all sorts of ways ---horrible deformities or mental disabilities. He makes some people be born in a radical Muslim home where they have only the most nominal opportunity to hear the gospel. I am glad He did not do that to me.
We live in a fallen world. I don't think God "makes" people gay. I think a tainted gene pool and bad environments make gay people.
But if you read my post carefully you will see that I stressed this excuses no one. Dolfan and I said the same thing just in different ways.
Christians are afraid to accept that there may be a genetic component to homosexuality. There is nothing to be afraid of because this does not create a loophole.
Heydave writes:
If someone no longer has any desire of thoughts about a physical attraction with the same sex, he is no longer a homosexual. What makes one gay is that they desire this. The gay community hate it when someone says they have been 'cured' or are no longer gay, because it destroys their whole 'gene' argument and that you are born gay and will always be gay. God's word says no! You can repent and turn from sin and be set free from the sin of homosexuality.
by dolfan on 2014/6/5 11:01:29We may be genetically framed to be predisposed to certain appetites. But, that's a long way from causation in actually indulging them. It is even further away from explaining a person's rejection of outside information that weigh heavily against that appetite. It is far away from explaining his moral judgments that swing the gate open to indulge that appetite in the face of moral pressure and knowledge that contradict that appetite.
Geneticists have actually located a variation on a specific gene that, they say, explains variations in the preference for the taste of sweets. One study also says that same genetic variation is connected with a person's desire to drink alcohol.
So, if homosexuals are right that they are innately homosexual, created by God to be as they are and follow their genetically predisposed appetites for homosexual sex, then obese alcoholic diabetics who litter their homes with Hershey's wrappers and empty Bud Light bottles are simply being who God made them to be. There is an upshot to this.
Here it is: The very culture who so condemns the overweight as gluttons who can manage their appetites, and in fact have a public health duty to do so to the point that government is increasingly regulating our diets, wholly accepts and approves homosexuality. The very culture who spends billions of dollars each year to combat alcoholism, to treat alcoholics, to arrest and imprison alcoholics who drive intoxicated, wholly accepts and approves homosexuality. They prove that they are a "law unto themselves", much as Paul wrote about Gentiles' living the principles of the Law without having the written Law. They prove that they are establishing a moral law of their own making and that genetic predisposition is really not their concern, but is their convenient cover.
The actual truth is not whether homosexuals are "born this way", but whether if born this way, a moral decision must be made about their own appetites, one that contradicts that appetite. And, THAT choice is not genetic at all. It is spiritual. And, anyone who is born again, quickened to spiritual life by the Holy Spirit of God, has one response: reject homosexuality because the Word of God reveals that God is not glorified in it, that God's image is not reflected in it, that God's Spirit and God's Word oppose it to the point that no one who engages in it inherits the kingdom of God in Christ. The world, being natural and dead in their transgressions, may divide on the question with motivations which are all unholy and profane even if they reject homosexuality. But, the idea that we are programmed and cannot do other than as we are programmed is completely false, flatly antibiblical and it is anti-world since (as pointed out above) the world makes decisions about what appetites are "good" or "bad" all the time in spite of the supposed genetic influence of those appetites.
AMEN! And very well explained. Recently I was conducting a Bible study, reading from I Cor:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
A young lady asked me "do you think that people are born effeminate?" I explained to her that from a very early age they start learning that wrong behavior and they grow up with it; therefore, they think that they are born with it.
I asked her:
Are people born as drunkards?
Are people born as thieves?
Are people born as adulterers?
As dolfan pointed out, scientists can link genetics to a lot of things ... but it doesn't excuse the sin! If scientists had done a study on me when I was young, they would have declared that I had the effeminate / homosexual gene. The fortunate thing for me is that I was taught what the Bible declares about the sin; therefore, I hated that aspect of my life and wanted to be rid of it completely.
This song that I wrote sums up what I went through:
As a little boy growing up,
I played with dolls and girly stuff.
My parents had no clue
Of what my mind was going through.
But there were things I could not hide
To act like a boy I really tried.
"Why didn't you make me a girl?”
To God I sincerely cried,
But He said:
I made you a man,
And for your life that's my plan
In spite of all your confusion,
Look to me and take a stand.
As I grew older it got worse,
An older boy made a scar that hurt.
He called it "having fun”
But on my life he put a curse.
At that young age my mind was warped
Inside my heart was a constant war.
Attraction for "the same as me”
Was enticing me insanely,
But God said:
I made you a man,
And for your life that's my plan
In spite of all your confusion,
Look to me and take a stand.
Thank God He saved me,
He saved my soul,
But my mind was a battle out of control
"Lord I want to think like a man,
But I'm wondering if I can”
And then I looked at a rugged cross.
He said: "boy I've paid it. I've paid the cost.
You're delivered, you're set free,
and now you can think like Me”.
I made you a man, and for your life that's my plan,
In spite of all your confusion,
My way is the perfect way!
I didn't make you to turn out gay!
When the devil tells you different,
Tell him here's what God has to say:
I made you a man, and for your life that's my plan,
There's victory over confusion.
Look to Me and take a stand
as a MAN!
God created us to live holy lives, but at a young age we begin getting twisted in one form or another. God can UNTWIST the worst twisted creature with the greatest of ease. It is as simple as I John 1:9 says that it is. We make it complicated when we begin to excuse ourselves for our sinful behavior.
The way that I like to explain this "sexual orientation" thing is that it is like a river. God created that river to flow in one direction and down one path:
ONE MAN WITH ONE WOMAN UNTIL DEATH DO US PART.
At an early age, that river can get diverted when dams are built to divert the flow. The thing that convinces the sodomite that he was "born that way" is that all of those vibrant swiftly flowing emotions flow just as forcefully when they have been diverted as when they are flowing in the right direction.
As a young person, there were times when my eyes would fall on body sections of clothed men and (to may shame) my imagination would immediately go wild and my own body would react with great intense evil desire. Out of my evil heart flowed all of those wicked desires.
The intense desires that were gushing out of my heart for other men were supposed to be reserved for my future wife, but because perversion had started at an early age, I stayed in a confused frame of mind, until Jesus delivered me. Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives ... not consolation in captivity! Many "Christians" are just as captive still to other forms of perversion because they are not fully convinced that there is deliverance for the captives, but thank God for verse 11!
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
No longer a fornicator!
No longer an idolator!
No longer an adulterer!
No longer effeminate!
No longer sodomite!
No longer a thief!
No longer covetous!
No longer a drunkard!
No longer a reviler!
No longer extortioner!
WASHED! SANCTIFIED! JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD!!!
On another note ... I find it interesting that scientists are finding so many homo-genes these days when about 100 years ago there were so very few cases here in the USA. A few years ago a Guatemalan friend of mine(from the Quiché Indian tribe) was living in a dormitory for his work here in Monroe LA. A Honduran homosexual came to live with them, and eventually expressed his desires. My friend was SHOCKED! He had never known that such people really existed. Could it be that his tribe killed off any with that gene many centuries ago? I doubt it seriously. If you were to put some of the Quiché Indian children in an environment like the public schools of San Fransisco (and add a few molestations and exposures) ... suddenly the scientists would discover "the gene" in a few of them; whereas if they had been left in the back woods mountains of Guatemala ... it wouldn't have occurred.
By the way ... I once also had the "sugar gene". All of my life I craved sweets. At an early age doctors discovered that I have a "ballooned mitral valve". There were times when my chest would hurt and it would be "acting up".
I read a book about the adverse affects of pure crystal sugar. I quit eating or drinking it for a long time. Later I started back on the sugar. As my sugar habit increased (I didn't eat right but lived on a "sugar high") my chest pains increased. One day when my boss told me "Michael you are going to have to go see a doctor", I went home and prayed. I told the Lord: "If you will take care of my heart, I will not ever knowingly consume anything with added sugar (sucrose) again.
That's been about 20+ years ago. By God's grace, I have not satisfied that appetite since. After about 1 week I lost all craving for sugar and haven't desired it since. My heart has been doing fine ever since then also.
Regardless of how "addicted" a person is to ANY appetite fulfillment (whether outright sinful ... or just not so good) a person can be changed when he depends on God for the change!
After about 1 week I lost all craving for sugar and haven't desired it since. My heart has been doing fine ever since then also.
wow praise god he set you free (lord do it again),,love your poem
quote: "Homosexuality is a choice that many make from early childhood"
Yeah- I hear little kids saying they are choosing to be gay all the time. Of course they have no idea what it means but that's what they are saying!!
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