Tough issues in the bible and today's church

Recently I have come across some comments some certain people who raise good points but yet I don't know how a Christian responds to them. It comes down to the OT being so different from the NT that many think they are 2 different Gods. The OT God seems more like Allah then Jesus in some of its acts of brutality. In any case I want to share some comments and I am asking how you would respond to them.

"The Muslim god, and the Christian god, are one in the same. In the Christian bible he mandated them to keep all the young virgin girls alive as sex slaves. That's rape, and slavery, in one whop. So many christians involved in the church, or pastors, or priests get accused, or arrested, for pedophilia, that I think the christian god must love pedophilia. If not, why doesn't he stop them from doing it? Where is god's armor, like (name withheld) says? So many christians say that gay marriage will lead to bestiality, so why can't I say that christianity leads to pedophilia? There's wayyyyyyy more evidence for this case! "

"Read what the bible condones...

Does the bible condone rape and paedophilia?

I want to be very careful in how I phrase this question because I know that it might stir up all manner of hysteria, but take a look at the following bible verse, and lets try to think about what it says:

"Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves".

This, to me, seems to be suggesting that the winning side (God's) in this story are free according to God - nay, are commanded by God Himself! - to spare the young, female children left after this battle for sexual slavery.

Are there any Christians who are honest enough to admit that can honestly say that this question gives them problems, or do they really and truly believe that such actions are worthy of a God of love? Again, I do not ask this question to cause trouble, merely to say that there are surely some verses in the bible that God does not intend us to believe as being His explicit orders or His declared intention, will or desire. Could we have a sensible debate about this one, please?

for startes it does not say keep them for sex slaves ,,becasuse fornacation is fornacation ,and it is a sin ,,so that is obviously a falty intrpration ,,it means ti intergrate them into there own socity ,,more like adobting them

when understanding the old testaament you need to understand the blood thristy evil nature of the people back then ,,in some cases there were sill refaim ,,giants ,,and the evil on the earth that was cause by these canable horific race of men ,,was delt with by god with the death peniltiy ,,,reofoming there nature in most cases was not an option and would not work mmwithout the death penility and genocide ,,god would hav had to destroy the earth with another flood ,,wich he said he would not do again

the virgin female children were the purest out of that race and god new they could be saved and intergrated in to jewish culture

the men and woman and the young boys would have grown corupted ,,,even now sciencetes believe that geans to do horifice evil deeds and be drunkens and criminals can be passed down from generation to generation

More from Scientific American A 2002 study found that a particular variation of a gene predicted antisocial behavior in men who were mistreated as children. The gene controls whether we produce an enzyme called monoamine oxidase A (MAOA), which at low levels has been linked to aggression in mice. The researchers found that boys who were neglected and who possessed a variation of the gene that produced low levels of MAOA were more likely to develop antisocial personality disorder, commit crimes and grow up to have a violent disposition. But those living in a similar environment who produced more of the enzyme rarely developed these problems.

Psychopaths are arguably the evilest of the evildoers. A study published in August 2010 looked at psychopathic tendencies in teenagers with low socioeconomic resources. The researchers found that adolescents who had a variation of another gene, which contributes to how quickly serotonin is recycled in the brain and which has been linked to hostile behavior in children, were more likely to exhibit signs of psychopathy.

i went out on a limb becasue i wasnt sure but look and see

god will deal with evil his own way in his on times ,,and in his own dipensasions

DEADn,

You might find a comprehensive answer if you were to search some of the apologetics websites. I reckon CARM.ORG is usually pretty good.

There is a relatively new book out titled " Is God a Moral Monster?" By Paul Copan that addresses these OT issues. I haven't read it yet but Hank hanegraaf has been pushing. It is supposed to address these types of questions.

But I agree with Gary that the persons you are conversing with are playing fast and loose with the text. Since the Bible dies not say these virgins were taken as concubines or "sex slaves" the burden of proof is on them to prove their point. They are reading into the text.

The better argument is why did God require the little boys be killed. I am sure He had his reasons although they are not readily apparent.

But I agree with Gary that the persons you are conversing with are playing fast and loose with the text. Since the Bible dies not say these virgins were taken as concubines or "sex slaves" the burden of proof is on them to prove their point. They are reading into the text.

The better argument is why did God require the little boys be killed. I am sure He had his reasons although they are not readily apparent.

I agree and I have not given myself sufficient time to look into all of this hence the reason I posted it here. I wanted to get some feedback.

I do wonder how can it be proven that those generations were much more evil back then because some times the scripture isn't always just plain to read. Another thing is the liberal mindset is being used to interpret these things and that is unfair because of how each generation changes in mindset and even in law as well.

God had already forbidden Hebrew men from marrying Canaannite women. Why? Because, for one, Canaanite culture would corrupt Israel and its worship of the one true God. (Virtually all of the OT after the Torah proves that.) Where the men of Canaan and their wives were removed from a tribe or clan, as in the situation in Numbers, and virgins lived, the corrupting influence was not sufficiently present for God to forbid the intermarriage. This seems reasonable. And of course I give God the benefit of my own doubtful knowledge.

Boys may have been killed because they could not be expected to unlearn the ways of Canaan already instilled in them. Later in life, those same Canaanite boys would be Canaanite men even if raised among Hebrews. They would have returned to their own people. This is true .... One need only see Moses as an example. Raised Egyptian royalty, he returned to the Hebrews. They could not so thoroughly purge Moses of his Hebrewness that he would remain loyal to Egypt against them. This was also to be expected from Canaanite boys. To raise them would have been to court their own disaster.

I know that seems callous to us. But, God is above our judgment of him, and that of the world.

How is a virgin women different then non virgin women in the OT?

Whoa there Les there is nothing wrong with asking questions. John is conversing with persons who are asking these questions. My kids ask me these questions. I ask these questions. "Go listen to Paris Reidhead" while a good idea is not an answer.

DEADn, I don't mind your questions, by the way. We need to be ready to answer what we are able to answer. Also, not to presume things. I am not quoting or setting out lots of passages here for the sake of brevity. If I state incorrectly, there are plenty of folks here able and willing to redirect lovingly.

With that, your question about distinction between virgin and non virgin...

I thought the reason was implicit in my prior post. Non virgin women are either married in that setting or corrupt through prostitution or other fornication. To take them into Israel would have been the invitation of the same corrupting influence as men of Canaan. It would also be an inexplicable variation from the Hebrew commandment from God to impose death on adulteresses. The maturity of Israel is crucial here. Their development as the covenant people of God, God's formative revelation of Himself to them is still quite early. He is sovereign and exercises mercy upon whom He will. In that context, it is easy to see that God acts justly.

DEADn, I don't mind your questions, by the way. We need to be ready to answer what we are able to answer. Also, not to presume things. I am not quoting or setting out lots of passages here for the sake of brevity. If I state incorrectly, there are plenty of folks here able and willing to redirect lovingly.

With that, your question about distinction between virgin and non virgin...

I thought the reason was implicit in my prior post. Non virgin women are either married in that setting or corrupt through prostitution or other fornication. To take them into Israel would have been the invitation of the same corrupting influence as men of Canaan. It would also be an inexplicable variation from the Hebrew commandment from God to impose death on adulteresses. The maturity of Israel is crucial here. Their development as the covenant people of God, God's formative revelation of Himself to them is still quite early. He is sovereign and exercises mercy upon whom He will. In that context, it is easy to see that God acts justly.

How are virgins not corrupt? It would seem to me that because virgins are virgins they are not corrupt yet what about being taught the ways of pagans? Often times I see the sin of women revolve around their sexuality, or at least that is what I tend to perceive. Does it really come down to virgin and non virgin with women back then?

I am kind of thinking that I need to read a book on this subject dealing with history on this because looking at this through the modern mindset it sounds ridiculous but it is unfair to judge those things from the modern mindset. Therefore I know my judgement is skewed on this and thus the reason I ask.

DEADn

If you had listened to even a handful of the sermons available to you on this website, you would not be asking such questions! It sounds as though you are more of a secularist or humanist by many of the questions you ask. The basic sin nature of man is one that is foundational to the faith. Have you listened to 'Ten Shekels and a Shirt' by Paris Reidhead?
Have you listened to Art Katz over and over denounce and call to account the humanistic errors of our ways as believers. Have you listened to Leonard Ravenhill call our lazy believism into account or David Wilkerson wrestle with God over his lifetime? Listen to these sermons. Dig into the Word yourself. Wrestle with God, not with mockers and unbelievers!
We cannot fight humanist and secular and false religions and philosophies with fuzzy humanistic ways of thinking (worldly thinking, as set up by Satan in this earth) God's ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts...until we are born again, agreeing with His Word, though we often fight it with every inch of our flesh because it seems "unfair" and "unloving".

God has never been unfair or unloving. God is just and He is loving. We, however, are born with a corrupt nature.

It is so clear that many, including those who call themselves Christians are justifying their own desires, wants, needs and opinions without consulting the Lord, His Book and dying to the fleshly lies. And it is a battle on a daily basis. The very mind of God is available to us when we believe in His Son, receive His Holy Spirit and daily walk, agreeing with His Word, His Ways, His Life within us. Pick up your cross and follow Him, he said. Die to all these arguments and needing to understand God. We are the clay. He is the Potter. We do not have to explain our God's ways and apologise for Him. He knows what He is about.

Don't mean to embarrass you, but there are sermons on this website of godly men and women who have been tested and tried. Their testimonies and messages have been preserved for many of us who have not had good teachers, preachers or Discipler's. Take advantage of hearing them before it is too late and the site is taken down. No one knows how long you will have the opportunity to glean from these saints.

L.Manto

Les
You haven't embarrassed me in this but one thing you have done is become a sort of Fundamentalist finger pointer thinking that all my answers would be found in sermons. That is like telling me all my answers will be found in the OT. If that were the case why would anyone ask questions? No, It is my opinion that we need to understand some history in order to understand what was going on there and why thing were the certain way.

Art Katz doesn't do anything for me personally. I have listen to a few sermons. Paris is ok but they didn't enlightenment on this issue I have raised.

Point me in the direction of sermons that will explain why certain things happened in the OT rather than they just happened. This is what I am looking for in the end. The why's because too often we see the past through a modern mindset and often judgement past societies on the modern mindset. I don't want to do that yet in order not to do that I have to understand why these things were so. Does that make sense?

God has never been unfair or unloving BUT often to the human mindset it isn't always seen that way and understanding why is a concern. I strive to have a practical approach to explanation. If I can't explain it then it means I am ignorant on the subject, just as I am on this subject.

John

How are virgins not corrupt? It would seem to me that because virgins are virgins they are not corrupt yet what about being taught the ways of pagans? Often times I see the sin of women revolve around their sexuality, or at least that is what I tend to perceive. Does it really come down to virgin and non virgin with women back then?

That could be one reason why the younger females were spared but not the younger males (the Midianites were to be exterminated), and also the distinction made between virgins and non-virgins (non-virgins having already been united with another partner).

Hey John try that Paul Copan book I mentioned. It is supposed to go into the historical background.

But I will tell you (and you may already know this) that the persons you are conversing with will not be persuaded even if you give an explanation ---they will just move on to something else. They are opposed to God and until that changes by a radical move of the HS their minds and hearts are darkened.

Perhaps that is what Les was getting at. Those persons need to repent and the only way that will happen is by hearing the gospel. Once they hear the gospel they may "kick against the goads" like Paul but hopefully conviction will set in.

TMK
Yeah, I understand that but I figure if I can get to the worst cases of an argument and answer it and watch them squirm I can then call them out to expose their heart decision for what they are. I tend to be practical in my approach with things. The the reason for my OP. I will look at that book.

John,

You ask some tough questions and I do not doubt that people are asking them. Whether they are honest or not, one cannot tell always.

There is one thing I do sense in these ignorant questions is that people appear to want to disqualify the reliability of the WORD as it convicts their own heart of their own sin. If God's WORD can be discredited, be proven to be unreliable, then they will not have to give heed to the conviction in their own heart of their own sinfulness - at least so they think.

Ravi Zacharias addresses this issue a lot in his talks. He asks: "Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart, we are really not battling intellectual ideas as much we fighting for the right for our own sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?”

I think he is right on.

So, how does one deal with these questions when thrown at you? I suspect there is no one answer that fits all, but would say one needs to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit to speak to your own heart about how to answer. A person come up with a very good one, but it may not be pertinent to the individual at the moment which is why one needs to listen to the Holy Spirit. Now for your own benefit, I would say, study the WORD in its context and you may be surprised what you learn - there is no end to the inspiration the WORD gives to a careful serious scholar.

My understanding....

God bless.

Jesus was a master at re-directing questions in unexpected directions. I think we need to be better at this.