Should Persecuted Christians Defend Themselves? By Michael Brown

Laying out both sides of the issue:

http://mobile.wnd.com/2014/08/should-persecuted-christians-defend-themselves/

In luke the greek for "sword" is a small knife used to cut animals for meat. Definitely not a sword to help defeat an human enemy.

If this definition is correct, wouldn't we have to translate the other 18 uses of this term in the New Testament as a small butcher knife as well? This is only on of several literal definitions of the term sword, the others being non-literal representative of wars and of armed violence in general.

I think this is one place where believers must be convinced in their spirit what they will do. I think at its core this debate is the same as the debate over military service with the exception that we are now speaking specifically of defending ourselves against religions persecution. I know of many churches where there are men with concealed carry permits who are prepared to protect the members of their congregations against violence. I don't disagree with this. If someone were to enter my home and attack my family, I would do all I could to defend them. If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back. Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back. It may sound inconsistent, but it is the conclusion I have come to personally.

Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back. It may sound inconsistent, but it is the conclusion I have come to personally.

This is exactly how I think about this issue, Travis.

If it’s OK for a distant country like America to bomb them, so why isn’t it OK for local Christians to fight them?

This is a thought provoking question, found in the link. I see a couple of ways to respond:

1) We ask: What makes it okay for any nation to bomb?

2) Of course it's wrong for "local Christians" to fight the enemy! It's stupid: You're going to lose! Persecuted people do not have power advantages: That's why they get persecuted. They are easy targets/scapegoats. (apart from the God-factor)

The moral of the story is this: Fight only if you're bigger than your enemy, or you imagine yourself to be! It's an issue of power!

I'd like to see a nation fight the enemy with Gideon's army of 300, or Jehosephat's singing army.

Describe the weapons these people deployed?

Diane

travis wrote:

"If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back. Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back. It may sound inconsistent, but it is the conclusion I have come to personally."

I agree 100%. There is no inconsistency, at least not IMO.

quote: "I'd like to see a nation fight the enemy with Gideon's army of 300, or Jehosephat's singing army."

That would indeed be awesome- but in both those cases God told Jehoshaphat and Gideon exactly what to do and promised them victory.

For some reason I don't think God will tell Obama exactly what to do.

Will He tell us as individual believers exactly what to do? He might, and He might not. So we are left with what our best understanding of scripture is in these matters, and the leading of the HS.

"When you have a right-standing relationship with God, you have a life of freedom, liberty, and delight; you are God’s will. And all of your commonsense decisions are actually His will for you, unless you sense a feeling of restraint brought on by a check in your spirit. You are free to make decisions in the light of a perfect and delightful friendship with God, knowing that if your decisions are wrong He will lovingly produce that sense of restraint. Once he does, you must stop immediately." ~Oswald Chambers

Gen 14:14
Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Gen 14:15
He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.

Abram knew the times in which he lived. He prepared beforehand, in the event that he had to protect his family.

And what does Scripture say....

Gen 14:18
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

Gen 14:19
And he blessed him and said:

"Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 14:20
And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

According to Scripture God was with Abram, both the Father and the Son.

Jesus is the same always there is no such division between the God of the OT and the NT.

Bear like Travis said there is a distinction between personal affronts and being overrun by madmen.

Thanks for posting that rookie

Bear you are right on this. We are only called to forgive.It does not come natural to flee and forgive and keep on forgiving.Let us choose to go with the high calling now so when the fighting starts God has those with a pure testimony. Jesus loves his enemies for such were we before we believed.

Right persecution for the faith should not be met with retaliation.

Which is what Travis and I were saying.

If I understand the question here it is should a person defend himself, his family using violent means that could easily result in death of someone?

One can appeal to logic, another to history, another to Scripture all wrapped up in emotion and or conviction.

Does it not seem odd that given the diversity of opinions on this issue that one reads little how Christians succeeded in subduing their enemies while defending themselves with carnal weapons?

During the time of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia and later, Mennonites were victims of bandits led by Nestor Makhno that rode through their villages raping and killing as they went. Some decided the use of the sword was called for and justified. They did use it but they came to a tragic end.

In hindsight the people who survived the atrocities visited upon them, who returned good for evil are considered the heroes.

I am beginning to understand more deeply the truth of the statement made by Richard Wurmbrand: "If God wants you alive, no persecution can kill you." I would understand this to mean life, everyday living - if God wants me alive no cancer, no accident will kill me. Once my time here is finished God will allow anything to come my way to snuff out my life.

The Apostle Peter is an excellent example of this principle. He was imprisoned but delivered by an angel. Later he was crucified head down. God was not through with him at the time of his imprisonment; He had more work for him to do and once that was done, He stepped aside and allowed him to be ruthlessly killed.

My understanding...

Sandra

This IS a perplexing issue... especially in light of what we are seeing in Iraq, but one thing comes to mind:

When the jews first declared genocide on Christians.... If Stephen had been armed and had murdered his asailants, amongst them was Saul who later became Paul... he would have aborted one of Christianity's greatest apostles. Likewise, when Saul was going from house to house pulling out Christians for genocide... if one of the "brothers" had defended his home and murdered Saul ... 14 books of the new testament would have been written by another chosen vessel... and the "hero" who obstructed God's plan in order to save his family? Where would he be?

I’m baffled:
1. Why is "defending ourselves/loved ones” equated with doing violence to the other (the perceived threat)? Does that not impose an even greater risk of harm? People have a tendency to retaliate!

2. Why would the spiritual armour of God (Eph. 6:10ff) not be considered practical in real life? Is this not talking about POWER! (Note the word POWER in Eph 1:18-21)

If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back.

Could it be that God is using our "enemies” to humble our "side - as in the Old Testament Israel? It seems dangerous to assume that we are on God’s side in these matters, for in fact, we may be under his hand of judgment. What is the solution then ”“ the best means of "defending” our own?

Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back."

For some reason I don't think God will tell Obama exactly what to do.

Diane

Sister wrote:

"Does it not seem odd that given the diversity of opinions on this issue that one reads little how Christians succeeded in subduing their enemies while defending themselves with carnal weapons?"

Jos 2:10
For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

From Scripture we find that it all depends on what God is doing. We often compare ourselves to the Apostles yet the vast majority of saints are called to a different ministry.

Is it right to judge another's calling based on your interpretation of the Scriptures.

What of the men like David and Job, what was their calling, what did God require of them?

Job 29:7
"When I went out to the gate by the city,
When I took my seat in the open square,

Job 29:8
The young men saw me and hid,
And the aged arose and stood;

Job 29:9
The princes refrained from talking,
And put their hand on their mouth;

Job 29:10
The voice of nobles was hushed,
And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.

Job 29:11
When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

Job 29:12
Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
The fatherless and the one who had no helper.

Job 29:13
The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
And I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.

Job 29:14
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.

Job 29:15
I was eyes to the blind,
And I was feet to the lame.

Job 29:16
I was a father to the poor,
And I searched out the case that I did not know.

Job 29:17
I broke the fangs of the wicked,
And plucked the victim from his teeth.

The calling of men differs from that of women, the calling of men differs between men, some are called to protect and break the fangs of the wicked.