Is Everything that God Allows "Good?"

A comment along these lines was made on another thread and I didn't want to hijack it so decided to start a new one.

So, is everything that God allows good?

I'll throw my initial two cents in by stating absolutely not, but I am curious about other viewpoints.

I think the discussion will probably head in a few directions, namely how do we define "good," short-term vs. long term perspectives, and God's sovereignty and what that means.

I don't think everything God allows is good. Good is good and evil is evil, however it must be a good thing that evil exists otherwise God wouldn't allow it.

David

Hey David--

I am not sure but I think you just said that evil was good.

Please clarify.

I think it's best explained by the story of Joseph.

Genesis 50:20 (NASB)

20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

I agree 100% that God can turn the evil schemes of men (like Haman) around for good.

But that is subtly different than saying the evil was good.

Depends on what level you look.

Is it good to kill mice?

For us, yes. For the mouse, no way.

Is it good to clear land for our own use? For us, yes. For plants and animals, not so much.

Is it good for sharks to eat. For them, yes. For the surfer dude, nope.

And this is such a vulgar representation but

The Lord does things that are seemingly not good for us, but result in the glory of His name.

Pro 16:4  The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Isa 45:7  I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

Lam 3:37-38  Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it?  Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?

That depends on which side of the fence you are on. For Gods children ALL things that God would allow would be considered good.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Yes dfella but again that verse does not say that evil is good. It says that God can work things out for good.

I think we have to be willing to state that some things that happen even to Christians are evil. They are not rendered good just because God can work through them. And we (at least I) must be willing to state that God is not the author of evil.

To use an extreme but certainly not unheard of examples, the act of a Christian child being raped by a pervert or beheaded by ISIS is just plain evil, EVEN IF God somehow chooses to bring good out of it. God was not the author of a child being raped or beheaded (at least not the God I serve). He can graciously use it somehow but he does not cause it. And the fact that He allows it does not make it a good thing.

I am not sure why Christians feel compelled to say that just because God allows something then that means the thing allowed is good.

TMK,I agree that the verse does not say that evil is good and I also agree that bad things that happen to Christians can be a result of evil (the other can be chastening). Like persecution, suffering, martyrdom, Job's trials, the beheading of John the Baptist.

Evil is evil and a result of mans rebellion and fall in the garden, which I also agree that God is not the author of.

When people post questions I do ponder them and really want to answer not how I would, but, how would God answer the question or thought. I based my answer on several things as I thought about the question, There is none good but God, God is sovereign and nothing can happen nor can the devil afflict unless it is approved or allowed by God.

I have suffered through various trials in my own life, some because of my own doing and choices, and some for the name of Christ. When I as a Christian look back on the evil that happened, I see that God was able to bring good out of the evil. It does not mean the evil is good, but the fact God allowed it in my life, I see that as good, because God is good.

The Psalmist speaks of his own afflictions as a good thing stating before he was afflicted he went astray, but now has he kept Gods commandments. He even says that it was good he was afflicted that he would learn Gods statutes.

I realize that these examples are different than the ones you used and I agree with you, but at the end of the day, if we are His and we look to Him in faith good is the end result, if we are not His, then evil wins.

You said,

I am not sure why Christians feel compelled to say that just because God allows something then that means the thing allowed is good.

Whether what God allows in our lives as being good or bad really depends on us, not Him. In the verse that came to mind that I quoted earlier says ALL things work together for good. All things include evil things, suffering, persecution, death, murder, rape.... and I believe that they can be rendered good as we look to Him in faith.

I appreciate the question and thought and I am thankful because they challenge me to ponder, pray, and search the scriptures that I might grow thereby.

dfella-

your clarification helps. I appreciate it, and can't say I disagree with what you have written.

A guy from my church had a son who relapsed on drugs and died. He said that he felt as if the devil was using Romans 8:28 to mock him. How could the death of his son work for his good? He later discovered Romans 8:29 which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he be the firstborn among many brethren. He realized that God's purposes for his life were aimed at conforming him to the image of Christ. This man has now started a grief group to help others cope with the loss of their loved ones.
Another verse that comes to mind is Isaiah 55:8-9, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Let me ask you guys this question:

Is a single grain of sand on Mars good?

Yes because God created it. If it some day gums up the works of an astronauts oxygen supply so that he suffocates, it's not so good.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Hebrews 11:3)

And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.(Genesis 1:31)

IMHO, one single grain of sand on Mars, would be considered good.

A question that comes to mind that one would ask is, how does that one grain of sand benefit me? My answer to that would be is that it just is another proof that there is none good but God and that God is not the author of things that are not good. Everything He made in the beginning He says was very good and I can let God be true but every man a liar when one would speak against God and His creation.

Kind of a long answer but it just gives me comfort in knowing that God is not a liar, He is truth, and we are fearfully and wonderfully made, to think that He would look down on such a sinner as I was and transform me from darkness into the Kingdom of His marvelous light melts my heart as well as blows my mind. I love Him!!!!!!

So TMK, and I am not trying to pin you in a corner or anything, it is good until it negatively impacts the astronaut?

Jesus said in Luke 18:19 that God alone is good and no one else is. So the definition of goodness is to attain the attributes of God like love, patience, purity etc. But people who proclaim Romans 8:28 mostly think that the Goodness referred there is earthly goodness like wealth, health etc. If one's definition of goodness is earthly then he has to acknowledge that God does not bring Goodness in all things because we believes still suffer financial loss, sickness etc.

But if our definition of Goodness is according to what Jesus said that is to attain the characters of our father, then we will acknowledge that all things happen for our good.

havok-

A grain of sand is morally neutral. it just sort of lies there. My astronaut comment was not really serious- i wouldn't blame the grain of sand if it got in there. But if someone intentionally put it in there, we have a different story.

The better question is: "Is a grown man raping a three year old girl good?"

As for you not trying to back me into a corner- I suspect you are but that is okay!

I am really not.

I am just pointing out that the general populace believes that what is "good" is defined not by what God says is good, but by what we perceive is good based on our sense of the morality of the situation.

--------------------------

Let's say you were my boss, and you told me on friday evening on my way out the door that I needed to come in on Saturday and work a 12 hour shift.

Is the instruction you gave me good? For the company, yes. For you, yes. For me, if I have a kid that has a baseball game, probably not.

I agree with Sree on this.

I don't disagree with Sree.

But I believe that certain believers have a hard time calling certain evil things that happen "evil" because, they would argue, that if God **allows** it then it must be good, because God is good.

I think this is twisted thinking and comes from a distorted view of what the "sovereignty" of God actually means.