a quote from George fox suspect

No-one knew the scriptures more than George Fox, he quoted them regularly and taught that whatever the Holy Spirit shows a man, must be confirmed by scripture.

He spoke against men who had the scriptures but did not have the Holy Spirit, which comes first.

It just shows how a mans words can be taken out of context when people read excerpts without reading more widely from source.

In the following quotation, George Fox reacts to a pastor quoting scripture and shows that it is the connection with Holy Spirit that is sacred ”” not the scriptures. This `interruption' landed Fox in prison!

At the time of this event, which was in Nottingham, Fox was twenty-four years of age. The same biography from which you took your quote also tells us that Fox was eventually dealt with leniently although he did spend some weeks in prison awaiting to go before a judge. The interim was spent mostly at the house of the Principle Sheriff who's wife saw in Fox a true light. Fox missed several hearings because he was busy ministering at the time and the Sherif was late in getting him to the court. The judge on one occasion, though angry at having to stand down, indicated that he would have simply rebuked "the youth" had he appeared that day.

In any event the context of what Fox said in the Church was consistent with his understanding of the whole meaning and purpose of evangelism. Hence why Fox speaks of the congregation being "fallow ground" and the priest being as a "lump of earth". You don't sow seed on ground that is become a lump of earth. Remember the prophecy Gary go read it again you will see the answer therein.

I don't believe this account of Fox has anything to do with taking the Scriptures less than seriously. I believe it is at once a reflection of Fox's belief that all men who's hearts are natural are open to God, and all men who's hearts are hardened by unnatural and perverse affections are dead to God. His challenge to the priest was simply a sowing of seeds to the hearts of men and women who he saw as natural, to be open to true God and in that endeavour he was asking them to be alive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The following entry of Fox spells out the underlying knowledge which informed his activities and can be seen in this instance you have made reference to.

"Now the Lord God opened to me by His invisible power that every man was enlightened by the divine Light of Christ, and I saw it shine through all; and that they that believed in it came out of condemnation to the Light of life, and became the children of it; but they that hated it, and did not believe in it were condemned by it, though they made a profession of Christ. This I saw in the pure openings of the Light without the help of any man; neither did I then know where to find it in the Scriptures; though afterwards, searching the Scriptures, I found it. For I saw, in that Light and Spirit which was before the Scriptures were given forth, and which led the holy men of God to give them forth, that all, if they would know God or Christ, or the Scriptures aright, must come to that Spirit by which they that gave them forth were led and taught."

The real question in this is less to do with the merit of Scriptures, and more to do with the hearts and minds of men and women and a knowledge of when to sow and when to pass by.

The same revelation which gave rise to this instance in Nottingham and all of Fox's endeavours also contained these words:

"Abundance was opened concerning these things; how all lay out of the wisdom of God, and out of the righteousness and holiness that man at the first was made in. But as all believe in the Light, and walk in the Light, -- that Light with which Christ hath enlightened every man that cometh into the world, -- and become children of the Light, and of the day of Christ, all things, visible and invisible, are seen, by the divine Light of Christ, the spiritual heavenly man, by whom all things were created.

Moreover, when I was brought up into His image in righteousness and holiness, and into the paradise of God He let me see how Adam was made a living soul; and also the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations: which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discoursed with, I found none who could bear to be told that any should come to Adam's perfection, -- into that image of God, that righteousness and holiness, that Adam was in before he fell; to be clean and pure, without sin, as he was. Therefore how shall they be able to bear being told that any shall grow up to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, when they cannot bear to hear that any shall come, whilst upon earth, into the same power and Spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? -- though it be a certain truth that none can understand their writings aright without the same Spirit by which they were written."

In short Gary sinless perfection. Morning Brenda!

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Peter is clear that he is speaking of the 'voice' that direct speaking of the Holy Ghost to men, not the recorded voice in God speaking to other men. Fox stressed that it is not enough to hear God through other men in scripture, but we must hear His voice within us and this comes first and it is confirmed by other men speaking in scripture.

Good morning Andrew

At least someone else here understands that Fox taught sinless perfection along with other mystics and not the later Protestant holiness teachings which go only so far of the way there and which seems to be accepted as non heretical here unless I speak about it so I will say no more.

Gary go and start the greatest revival that England has seen then come back and say where Fox was wrong on hearing God.

I suppose if we want to be most accurate then we had better place what the priest said in Nottingham in 1648/9 in their exact context.

"For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: and this voice we ourselves heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount. And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:16”“21)

We can very easily see that the words "And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed" speaks of the Father in Majesty bearing witness of the Son, even Christ Jesus, to Peter, James and John on the mountain, at which time both Moses and Elijah also appeared. But the context of the writing of these words is that of Peter bearing witness himself as an apostle of Christ, having heard these words with his own ears and the context in which we have them today is by the Scriptures. The means by which we apprehend them is by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps if we are to be able to cut through the fog we would all be better served by knowing the Father, for which cause Christ came into the world.

If we want to be contentious we will have to be more accurate than Satan if by that means we are to be of any service to anyone.

As for sinless perfection I too clearly disbelieve it as some present it's meaning. It is also difficult not to see that Fox intended something by his words in which he claims that he was given surpassing revelation, by which he comprehended that in Christ we are to be restored to the sinless and perfect state which was in Adam before his disobedience. What he meant precisely by that seems to me to be an irrelevance.

In reading Fox I find that he seems to have been of the overwhelming view that the "Steeple Houses" were by and large filled with dead men professing Christ but having no true life in themselves. Hence why he placed his emphasis on seeing men and women in context of their general, natural and reasonable demeanour, which he called "ploughed fields". That term clearly is intended to mean a field prepared for planting. As planting in that sense would mean the propagation of the Gospel of Christ, then Fox appears to have been of the mind that if a person professing Christ, demonstrated by outward and visible means, decency, modesty, honestly, integrity, justice, and simple truthfulness, then they would by that means and their confession of Christ, be shown to be of Christ. If not then by rejecting such things, despite confessing Christ, they would be shown to be hypocrites and hence deluded and yet deceived.

The same High Sheriff to who's house Fox was taken after his few hours in a stinking prison, were received by Fox as true believers. He held many meeting to good effect in his house and to which meetings many high men and women attended. These men and all would have been members of the very same church in which Fox spoke the words which led to his arrest. Fox also demonstrates the meaning of this reality by bearing witness of the High Sheriff who's house he now resided awaiting his trial, a certain John Reckless, who challenged his deputy into recompensing a certain lady who was defrauded in a business deal by his hand. Fox was concerned with spiritual reality and not spiritual gymnastics.

I see Fox as having an eye for truth both in doctrine and conduct, but did not set doctrine to mean true salvation. Nor did he believe that good works were of themselves evidence of true faith. As with most things unless we ourselves have a balance we will inevitably subscribe to others the same offence which is in our own eye.

Thus I travelled on in the Lord's service, as He led me. When I came to Nottingham, the mighty power of God was there among Friends. From thence I went to Clawson, in Leicestershire, in the Vale of Beavor; and the mighty power of God appeared there also, in several towns and villages where Friends were gathered.

While I was there the Lord opened to me three things relating to those three great professions in the world, -- law, physic, and divinity (so called). He showed me that the physicians were out of the wisdom of God, by which the creatures were made; and knew not the virtues of the creatures, because they were out of the Word of wisdom, by which they were made. He showed me that the priests were out of the true faith, of which Christ is the author, -- the faith which purifies, gives victory and brings people to have access to God, by which they please God; the mystery of which faith is held in a pure conscience. He showed me also that the lawyers were out of the equity, out of the true justice, and out of the law of God, which went over the first transgression, and over all sin, and answered the Spirit of God that was grieved and transgressed in man; and that these three, -- the physicians, the priests, and the lawyers, -- ruled the world out of the wisdom, out of the faith, and out of the equity and law of God; one pretending the cure of the body, another the cure of the soul, and the third the protection of the property of the people. But I saw they were all out of the wisdom, out of the faith, out of the equity and perfect law of God.

And as the Lord opened these things unto me I felt that His power went forth over all, by which all might be reformed if they would receive and bow unto it. The priests might be reformed and brought into the true faith, which is the gift of God. The lawyers might be reformed and brought into the law of God, which answers that [indwelling Spirit] of God which is [in every one, is] transgressed in every one, and [which yet, if heeded] brings one to love his neighbour as himself. This lets man see that if he wrongs his neighbour, he wrongs himself; and teaches him to do unto others as he would they should do unto him. The physicians might be reformed and brought into the wisdom of God, by which all things were made and created; that they might receive a right knowledge of the creatures, and understand their virtues, which the Word of wisdom, by which they were made and are upheld, hath given them.

Abundance was opened concerning these things; how all lay out of the wisdom of God, and out of the righteousness and holiness that man at the first was made in. But as all believe in the Light, and walk in the Light, -- that Light with which Christ hath enlightened every man that cometh into the world, -- and become children of the Light, and of the day of Christ, all things, visible and invisible, are seen, by the divine Light of Christ, the spiritual heavenly man, by whom all things were created.

Moreover, when I was brought up into His image in righteousness and holiness, and into the paradise of God He let me see how Adam was made a living soul; and also the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations: which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discoursed with, I found none who could bear to be told that any should come to Adam's perfection, -- into that image of God, that righteousness and holiness, that Adam was in before he fell; to be clean and pure, without sin, as he was. Therefore how shall they be able to bear being told that any shall grow up to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, when they cannot bear to hear that any shall come, whilst upon earth, into the same power and Spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? -- though it be a certain truth that none can understand their writings aright without the same Spirit by which they were written.

Now the Lord God opened to me by His invisible power that every man was enlightened by the divine Light of Christ, and I saw it shine through all; and that they that believed in it came out of condemnation to the Light of life, and became the children of it; but they that hated it, and did not believe in it were condemned by it, though they made a profession of Christ. This I saw in the pure openings of the Light without the help of any man; neither did I then know where to find it in the Scriptures; though afterwards, searching the Scriptures, I found it. For I saw, in that Light and Spirit which was before the Scriptures were given forth, and which led the holy men of God to give them forth, that all, if they would know God or Christ, or the Scriptures aright, must come to that Spirit by which they that gave them forth were led and taught.

On a certain time, as I was walking in the fields, the Lord said unto me, "Thy name is written in the Lamb's book of life, which was before the foundation of the world": and as the Lord spoke it, I believed, and saw in it the new birth. Some time after the Lord commanded me to go abroad into the world, which was like a briery, thorny wilderness. When I came in the Lord's mighty power with the Word of life into the world, the world swelled and made a noise like the great raging waves of the sea. Priests and professors, magistrates and people, were all like a sea when I came to proclaim the day of the Lord amongst them, and to preach repentance to them.

I was sent to turn people from darkness to the Light, that they might receive Christ Jesus; for to as many as should receive Him in His Light, I saw He would give power to become the sons of God; which power I had obtained by receiving Christ. I was to direct people to the Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures, by which they might be led into all truth, and up to Christ and God, as those had been who gave them forth. George Fox 1648/9

"Up to Christ and God" by the "Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures"

Here is a useful tip in reading Fox whic h I have found to be correct:

"If you are new to Fox, I have a suggestion: study what he says. If there is something in the Bible, which you think conflicts with what Fox has written, try this approach in resolving the apparent difference: assume Fox is right, and now reexamine the scripture, questioning and searching your mind on how it could be interpreted to support what Fox says. If you do that, you will invariably see that every scripture is in harmony with Fox's entire message, with no exceptions. But, if you fail to reconsider your past understandings, which might be wrong, you must discard many scriptures that are incompatible with the subset of scriptures that you dearly hold to be true. All scriptures are compatible; if you have to disregard one to maintain your understanding, then you don’t understand the ones you think you do. One day, when you get that one more piece of the scripture puzzle, you will see how all the scriptures are totally compatible; and then you have the correct formula for what God desires and what he detests. Knowledge is not salvation, but exposes false salvations, and points the way to the one true salvation, which is to be delivered from sin and is to be experienced.http://www.hallvworthington.com/wjournal/gfjournal1.html"

Fox on understanding the scriptures rightly:

"Moreover, the Lord God let me see, when I was brought up into his image in righteousness and holiness, and into the state of the paradise of God how Adam was made a living soul; and also to the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations; which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discoursed with, I found none that could bear to be told that anyone could spiritually grow to Adam's perfection, (that is into that image of God, and righteousness and holiness that Adam was in before he fell), to be clean, pure, and without sin as he was. Therefore, how would they be able to bear being told that any should spiritually grow up to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; when it threatens them to hear that any shall come, while upon earth, into the same power and spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? Though it is an absolute truth, that none can understand the Apostle’s writings correctly without the same spirit by which they were written."

Some times Brenda I am genuinely speechless at the things you write.

Can you really mean to say that in order to arrive at truth a person must reject their understanding of Scripture, presume complete accuracy by George Fox and then re-examine Scripture seeking to find George Fox's meanings?

Brenda you are the one who instructed Gary to give context to the words of George Fox's comments regarding his rebuke of a Church of England Priest. Then when I come along and give them proper context you totally disregard that context, refuse to acknowledge its meaning and end up advising all of us to adopt a position of presuming George Fox to be the height of revelation and our own understanding of Scripture to be false or wrong. In that we are to "set aside" our knowledge of Scripture and look for evidence of what Fox has said.

The only reason I posted into this thread was to support Gary in his claim that the priest was indeed right when he said that all doctrine must be tested from the Scripture. That George Fox intended sinless perfection in this life, as you understand that saying, may well be a whole lot different to what Fox intended to mean by his words. I also did not intend to draw you into a debate on sinless perfection and so I could say that Gary's wife is called Brenda.

Now in finality you infer that true salvation means "to be delivered from sin and is to be experienced". By which means are all other conditions of salvation by definition, false. Brenda why would you believe after everything that has passed between us on here, for which I have been attacked repeatedly by other members, would now amount to an intention to support your teaching of sinless perfection. By attribution I have no choice but to distance myself from your action. All of my posts are to give context Brenda and not to promote your interpretation of it out of hand. Fox I can believe meant and understood something entirely different in the sense that he was translating a heavily vision of what could happen if men were to come under the power and true leading of the Holy Spirit. He was not advocating sinless perfection as though a man could never sin again or would in fact live an entirely sinless life. In the same way that Adam was sinless and then by the power of his own will, he sinned.

That Fox by his words has made possible sinless perfection as a false doctrine is a reality in some quarters. I have read others who have expressed a disappointment that Fox did not explain these words sufficiently well enough. Just because a false doctrine can be found in another's words does not mean that they intended such a doctrine. He was just twenty-four years old at the time and clearly he was describing a heavenly revelation or vision by which he was able to comprehend eternal truths. Translating all such truths into day to day reality is always fraught with dangers. What is even more dangerous is to attempt to do it some 350 + years later.

Can you really mean to say that in order to arrive at truth a person must reject their understanding of Scripture, presume complete accuracy by George Fox and then re-examine Scripture seeking to find George Fox's meanings?

The point that the writer made, was that we should follow his suggestion *in order to understand the way Fox is interpreting them*. We can then decide whether we agree or not but first we must see how he is understanding the scriptural view we are opposing. He is interpreting the scriptures quite often in a way that is not grasped by many who are not in the same spirit as he so he is frequently misunderstood.

I have read others who have expressed a disappointment that Fox did not explain these words sufficiently well enough. Just because a false doctrine can be found in another's words does not mean that they intended such a doctrine. He was just twenty-four years old at the time and clearly he was describing a heavenly revelation or vision by which he was able to comprehend eternal truths. Translating all such truths into day to day reality is always fraught with dangers. What is even more dangerous is to attempt to do it some 350 + years later.

Fox made it more than clear here:

"At last they asked me, whether I was sanctified? I answered, yes; for I was in the paradise of God. Then they asked me, if I had no sin? I answered, Christ, my savior, has taken away my sin; and in him there is no sin. They asked how we knew that Christ did abide in us? I said, by his spirit that he has given us. They temptingly asked, if any of us were Christ? I answered, no, we were nothing, and Christ was all. They said, if a man steal, is it no sin? I answered that all unrighteousness is sin. When they had wearied themselves in examining me, they committed me and one other man to the house of correction in Derby for six months, as blasphemers."

Please note I am not defending the doctrine I am merely showing what Fox taught.

Please note I am not defending the doctrine I am merely showing what Fox taught.

I rather thought that you had precisely done that very thing Brenda time and again both here and elsewhere. I grant that Fox's words are difficult to resist in their implication of what he himself may have intended to mean.

The same thing could be said of the examination he records at Derby assizes.

I can't be bothered to go into it. Although I have no doubt that it would be very easy to contract a semantic argument which exonerates Fox from a deliberate presentation of a claim to sinless perfection by giving some insight into 17th Century usage of the English language. The questions may have been in a mocking tone. They do not have to have been sincere or truly an enquiry into truth. They could have been intended to impute a heresy and not necessarily to uncover one. The words of themselves could be made to mean anything.

I take my position from the fact that I too have been in paradise by the grace of God and thus see very easily that no such thing could have been possible except that sin had been thoroughly removed from my account. It is easy to mock all such claims and I can imagine how Fox would have been mocked by dead men who professed Christ as their own but had no true knowledge of Him, let alone been in the place of His habitation. Fox's account hinges on his claim to have been in Paradise. Without that it would be heretical. With it, it becomes a true revelation of our condition in Christ Jesus and even in this life a measure from which to truly seek to please the Lord in our present conduct. What it may not have been intended to mean was a claim to sinless perfection in this life.

Well Fox was known as one of the great mystics and a holy man by his peers at the time, many making the same claims as he and mystical theology consisting of exactly that - union with Christ and taking on His nature. He follows in a long line of them since the early fathers and they all interpreted the scriptures in the same way, often having come to the understanding without any influence as myself came to it.

Often people discount the teaching without taking the time to understand the claims or the way scriptures are seen supporting that view. Of course, many do not accept it and they are entitled not to.

Gary

Many Quakers downgrade the scriptures and many do not even believe in God and call themselves atheist Quakers. The movement is dead and there is no-one preaching the message Fox brought that I know of, and certainly not in the UK although there was an academic book printed called: Holiness: The Soul of Quakerism: An Historical Analysis of the Theology of Holiness in the Quaker Tradition (Studies in Christian History and Thought) Paperback ”“ December 1, 2007 by Carole Dale Spencer which showed that the original message was not that 'every man is lighted with the light of Christ' which is what many Quakers think, but it was concerning holiness and similar to the revivals in the Holiness Movement days.

When Fox formed the Quakers, there had been no groups who's message was holiness until then, though I am sure that he knew that there had been small groups (or even individuals) like the Carmelites within the Spanish Catholic church. He said that all denominations were apostate, even the Anabaptists from their onset who were not formed over that doctrine. It was the organisations that Fox spoke out against, not individuals within who may be true disciples.

Fox held the scriptures in their rightly place, in that there is no interpretation of them unless a person is in the same Spirit as the writers. In those times, many believed that any man could read the scriptures and understand them. Fox said that having the Spirit inside is the first thing that is needed. Then the scriptures will be in accordance with the 'light' and there will be no discordance.