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Christian Musician Gungor Says Jesus Could Have Been Wrong About Creation Story or Lied About It

sermonindex Sep 3, 2014

Award-winning Christian musician Michael Gungor of the musical collective Gungor, who recently rattled the Christian world when he argued that the Bible should not be read literally, took his arguments a little further last month when he said Jesus could have been wrong about the creation story, or might have lied about it to fit in with popular culture.

In episode 2 of The Liturgists podcast posted on Aug. 12 Gungor, Mike McHargue, popularly known as Science Mike, and Lissa Paino discussed the furor that has continued over Gungor's argument that Genesis 1 should not be accepted as a scientific record of history, but a poem.

During the nearly hour-long discussion, co-host McHargue said fundamentalist Christians from a church he used to attend challenged Gungor's position with the argument that even Jesus spoke of Moses' writings as though they were historical fact, and to reject any of Moses' words as allegorical is to reject the divinity of Christ.

Gungor argued, however, that it is possible that even Jesus, limited by His human form, could have been wrong about the creation story. He also suggested that Jesus, as man, could have also been aware that the interpretation of the scripture was erroneous, but chose not to say otherwise to fit in with popular culture.

read more: http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-musician-gungor-says-jesus-could-have-been-wrong-about-creation-story-or-lied-about-it-calls-genesis-1-a-poem-125742/

sermonindex Sep 3, 2014

Unfortunately many young people who listen to these contemporary christian singers take their opinions as facts and this is causing many young people to doubt the words of God.

sermonindex Sep 3, 2014

I like their music. But genesis 1-11 is literal

D
DEADn Sep 3, 2014

I call this part of the seduction of Christianity. Little by little it get whittled away and questioned to the extent that only fragments of the Bible will be believed because certain individuals are seduced by the philosophy of this world.

Not long ago God put in front of me the word 'Seduced' as the banner of what is happening in Christianity today. Later 2 more words came to me. Offended and Convicted. To words that have very deep meanings but one of these words is king of the mountain in our country and it leads down a certain road. How many people are offended at things rather than convicted by anything? With offense comes a seduction of heart when the conviction of heart no longer exists.

John

T
TrueWitness Sep 3, 2014

Can anyone provide or cite the verses in the New Testament where Jesus discusses the creation story? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

T
TMK Sep 3, 2014

Mark 10:6??

Reading the whole article the argument seems to be that since Jesus talked about the Pentateuch then everything in the Pentateuch including the creation story must be literally true.

But I don't see in the gospels where Jesus specifically cites Gen 1.

Personally I agree that Gen 1 is a poem and not a science text.

There is at least one place in scripture where Jesus used a previously known story or fable to make a point, namely in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

sermonindex Sep 3, 2014

http://creation.com/genesis-new-testament

scroll down to all the references taken from Genesis (103 references in the NT)

sermonindex Sep 3, 2014

1\tMatthew 1:1”“3\tAncestors of Jesus
2\tMatthew 2:18\tRachel
3\tMatthew 3:8”“9\tAbraham’s children
4\tMatthew 10:15\tSodom and Gomorrah
5\tMatthew 11:23”“24\tSodom
6\t(1) Matthew 19:4\tQuote from Gen 1:27
7\t(2) Matthew 19:5\tQuote from Gen 2:24
8\t(3) Matthew 22:21\tMan in the image of God
9\tMatthew 22:31”“2\tGod of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
10\t(4) Matthew 23:35\tRighteous Abel
11\t(5) Matthew 24:37”“39\tDays of Noah
12\t(6) Matthew 26:52\tThose who draw the sword will die by the sword
13\t(7) Mark 10:6\tQuote from Gen 1:27
14\t(8) Mark 10:7\tQuote from Gen 2:24
15\t(9) Mark 12:17\tMan in the image of God
16\tMark 12:26\tGod of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
17\t(10) Mark 13:19\tGod created the world
18\tLuke 1:25\tElizabeth’s reproach is taken away like Rachel’s
19\tLuke 1:48\tMary will be called blessed like Leah
20\tLuke 1:55\tAbraham and his descendents
21\tLuke 1:73\tGod’s oath to Abraham
22\tLuke 3:8\tChildren of Abraham
23\t(11) Luke 3:29”“37\tJesus is descendent of Adam
24\tLuke 10:12\tSodom
25\t(12) Luke 10:19\tTreading on serpents
26\t(13) Luke 11:51\tAbel the first slain prophet
27\tLuke 13:16\tDaughter of Abraham
28\tLuke 16:22”“31\tAbraham
29\t(14) Luke 17:26”“27\tDays of Noah
30\tLuke 17:28”“29\tDays of Lot
31\tLuke 17:32\tLot’s wife
32\t(15) Luke 20:25\tMan in the image of God
33\tLuke 20:37\tGod of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
34\t(16) John 1:1”“3\tGod pre-existed and created
35\tJohn 1:51\tReference to Jacob’s ladder
36\tJohn 4:5”“6, 11”“12\tJacob’s well
37\tJohn 7:22\tCircumcision came from the patriarchs
38\tJohn 8:33\tJews are Abraham’s descendents
39\t(17) John 8:44\tThe devil a liar and murderer
40\tActs 7:2”“14\tHistory of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph
41\t(18) Acts 14:15\tGod made heaven and earth and everything in them
42\t(19) Acts 15:20, 29\tPossible reference to Noahic covenant
43\t(20) Acts 17:24\tGod made the earth and everything in it
44\t(21) Acts 17:26\tAll nations descended from one man
45\t(22) Romans 1:19”“20\tGod’s power revealed through creation
46\tRomans 4:1”“25\tAbraham justified by faith
47\t(23) Romans 5:12”“21\tDeath came because of Adam’s sin
48\t(24) Romans 8:20”“23\tThe entire creation was cursed
49\tRomans 9:7”“13\tGod chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
50\tRomans 15:8\tChrist fulfills promises made to patriarchs
51\t(25) Romans 16:20\tSatan crushed under believers’ feet
52\t(26) 1 Corinthians 6:16\tQuote of Gen 2:24
53\t(27) 1 Corinthians 11:7”“8\tMan in the image of God, and woman created after man
54\t(28) 1 Corinthians 15:21”“22\tDeath comes through Adam
55\t(29) 1 Corinthians 15:38\tEach kind of seed has its own body
56\t(30) 1 Corinthians 15:45\tQuote of Gen 2:7
57\t(31) 1 Corinthians 15:47\tFirst man made from dust
58\t(32) 2 Corinthians 4:6\tQuote of Gen 1:3
59\t(33) 2 Corinthians 11:3\tEve was deceived
60\tGalatians 3:6\tQuote of Gen 15:6
61\tGalatians 3:8\tGen 12:3; 18:18; 22:18
62\tGalatians 3:16\tGen 12:7; 13:15; 24:7
63\t(34) Galatians 4:4\tSeed of the woman
64\tGalatians 4:22”“30\tAbraham’s two sons
65\t(35) Ephesians 3:9\tGod created all things
66\t(36) Ephesians 5:31\tQuote of Gen 2:24
67\t(37) Colossians 1:16\tAll things were created by the Son
68\t(38) Colossians 3:10\tImage of the Creator
69\t(39) 1 Timothy 2:13”“14\tMan created first
70\t(40) 1 Timothy 2:14\tWoman deceived
71\t(41) 1 Timothy 4:3”“5\tGod created everything good
72\t(42) Hebrews 1:10\tGod created heaven and earth
73\t(43) Hebrews 4:3”“4\tQuote of Gen 2:2
74\t(44) Hebrews 4:10\tGod rested
75\tHebrews 5:1”“10\tOrder of Melchizedek
76\tHebrews 6:13”“14\tGenesis 22:17
77\tHebrews 6:20”“7:17\tOrder of Melchizedek
78\t(45) Hebrews 11:3\tUniverse formed by God’s command
79\t(46) Hebrews 11:4\tAbel’s acceptable sacrifice
80\t(47) Hebrews 11:5\tEnoch taken away
81\t(48) Hebrews 11:7\tNoah’s ark
82\tHebrews 11:8”“12\tAbraham
83\tHebrews 11:17”“22\tAbraham’s sacrifice of Isaac and Abraham’s descendents
84\tHebrews 12:16”“17\tGodless Esau
85\t(49) Hebrews 12:24\tBlood of Abel
86\tJames 2:21”“23\tAbraham’s sacrifice of Isaac
87\t1 Peter 3:6\tSarah submitted to Abraham
88\t(50) 1 Peter 3:20\t8 saved in the ark
89\t(51) 2 Peter 2:4”“5\tGod punished sinning angels and saved Noah
90\t2 Peter 2:6”“8\tSodom and Gomorrah punished and Lot saved
91\t(52) 2 Peter 3:5”“6\tEarth formed out of and destroyed by water
92\t(53) 1 John 3:11”“12\tCain killed Abel
93\t(54) Jude 6\tDisobedient angels punished (reference to "sons of God”?)
94\tJude 7\tSodom and Gomorrah
95\t(55) Jude 11\tCain
96\t(56) Jude 14\tEnoch the seventh from Adam
97\t(57) Revelation 4:3\tRainbow surrounding the throne in Heaven
98\tRevelation 5:5\tLion of Judah
99\t(58) Revelation 6:12”“14\t"Uncreation” theme-sun, moon, and stars
100\tRevelation 10:6\tGod created the heaven and earth and all that is in them
101\tRevelation 20:2\tThe devil is the ancient serpent
102\t(59) Revelation 21\tNew Jerusalem””Edenic city
103\t(60) Revelation 22:1”“6\tRiver of water of life and tree of life

sermonindex Sep 3, 2014

Jesus and the Gospels

Jesus’ use of Genesis sets the tone for how it will be used in the rest of the New Testament. He uses it both to explain doctrine and to draw historical analogies. An example of the former use is in Matthew 22:15”“22 (parallels in Mark 12:13”“17 and Luke 20:20”“36) where the Pharisees and Herodians questioned Him about taxes. For Jesus, because the coin bears Caesar’s image, it is Caesar’s property and should be rendered to him””but He adds the command to give to God what is God’s. In the context, the image on the coin determines who owns it, so specifically what is in view here is that which is in God’s image. Jesus is referring back to Genesis 1:26”“27:

"In the present, proper humility before God requires the payment of Roman taxes, but if it is true that some of one’s money should go to the Caesar, it is so much more true that all that one is needs to be handed over to the God in whose image one is made.”2
Of course, if humanity had not actually been made in the image of God like Genesis teaches, the whole precedent would fall apart.

In Jesus’ day, there was a debate about whether divorce was allowed for any reason, or only for adultery. When asked to weigh in, Jesus essentially goes beyond the Law back to creation and quotes Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 to establish that God made man male and female and intended marriage to be between a man and a woman for life. This bond of loyalty transcends all other loyalties, even to one’s parents, except loyalty to God. The Pharisees ask why Moses commanded that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce to send her away. Jesus retorts that Moses allowed (never commanded) divorce because of rebellion (hardness of heart). But divorce violates the will of God which is expressed in the created order itself, and that overrides even the Law.

This quote of Genesis reveals Jesus’ thoughts on the timeline of creation, as well, because He said that it was this way "from the beginning of creation.” If Jesus is speaking on a timescale of 4,000 years from creation to His day, it makes sense to refer to something which was instituted on Day 6 as "from the beginning of creation.” But it makes no sense to refer to it as "the beginning of creation” if there were millions of years before the creation of mankind. See also Jesus and the age of the world http://creation.com/the-earth-how-old-does-it-look .

Often Jesus compares the people in His own day to people from Genesis. Capernaum is worse than Sodom, because Jesus said that the Sodomites would have repented if they’d seen the miracles performed in Capernaum (Matthew 11:23”“24). Jesus’ contrasted Abraham’s eager expectation of His day with the rejection of the Pharisees who claimed to be his descendents (John 8:33”“41)””as well as contrasting Abraham’s coming into existence with His own eternal pre-existence (v. 58). And He predicted that the end days would be like the days of Noah and of Lot””destruction would come swiftly and without warning (Luke 17:26”“29). In every case, there is no hint that Jesus is taking these events in less than a historical manner.

Hebrews 11 lists Abel, Enoch, and Noah, from Genesis 1”“11, as heroes of the faith without distinguishing them as less historical than the other members of the list. Just like Luke 3, the author moves seamlessly from Genesis 1”“11 to the rest of the Bible, without the slightest hint, "now we are moving from allegory or myth to history.”

http://creation.com/genesis-new-testament

H
hulsey Sep 3, 2014

Here's an article by Steve Gallagher that speaks to the spiritual condition of today's youth and influential leaders.

(David Wilkerson also said in his book The Vision that a new youth movement would rise up like the Jesus People only it would be a 'Jesus Revulsion' movement.)

http://www.eternalweight.com/the-jesus-movement-vs-the-emergent-church/

"While the leaders of the Jesus Movement attempted to make Christianity relevant to the young people of their day, they never did it at the expense of its foundational truths. In fact, I don’t know of any two ministers of the past century who preached the message of the Cross with such fearlessness and piercing conviction as did David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill. Moreover, I can’t think of any minister of the Twentieth Century who has exhibited such love as Chuck Smith and yet did it without deviating from sound doctrine.

By contrast, Rob Bell and his Post-Modern friends have made careers””wildly successful careers at that””out of challenging orthodoxy. They have correctly pointed out the lack of life and power in much of the modern church but, rather than calling Christians back to the ancient paths where true revival is always birthed, they have appealed to the disenchantment of today’s young people by casting doubt on the very foundational truths of Scripture."

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