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Theology

What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

B
budgie Sep 11, 2014

A biblical study

For those that study Doctrine with scripture

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What happens before the rapture

Jesus descends from heaven with a shout
There is the voice of an Archangel declaring
There is the Trumpet of God
There is the Resurrection of the dead in Christ
There is the immortal change of those alive in Christ
THEN there is the Rapture

The Rapture is the action of being seized; the rapture word is only used 13 times in the NT as shown below
Matt 11:12 the violent rapture the kingdom of heaven
Mat_13:19 The wicked One raptures the word that was sown in a mans
Joh_6:15 The people decided to rapture Jesus to make him king
Joh_10:12 The wolf raptures the sheep
Joh_10:28 No one shall rapture us out of gods hand
Joh_10:29 No one shall rapture us out of gods hand
Act_8:39 Philip was raptured away from the eunuch to another place
Act_23:10 soldiers tried to rapture Paul to take him to the castle
2Co_12:2 Paul speaking of a man raptured to the third heaven
2Co_12:4 Paul speaking of a man raptured to the third heaven
1Th_4:17 believers raptured after Ressurection
Jud_1:23 saving others by rapturing them out of the fire
Rev_12:5 Jesus raptured to the throne of God to rule
Biblically speaking Remember what comes before the rapture, it is a worthwhile study to look at all of the verses relating to all of the events before the rapture.

The biggest event is Jesus coming and the Resurrection.

S
Sidewalk Sep 12, 2014

There is a mystery.

Once you understand what "Christ in you, the hope of glory" means, your questions about the meaning of rapture will melt like spring snow.


But nobody wants that. They want a Hollywood show with a multi-course dinner to follow up on a cloud.

C
Christinyou Sep 13, 2014

Tom,

What is your understanding on "Christ in you the hope of glory"?

In Christ: Phillip

S
savannah Sep 13, 2014


Two simple answers to two simple questions:

Ques. #1)What is the rapture? Answer - A Myth

Ques. #2)What happens before the rapture?

Answer - It is Myth-o-Logically Relativistic


John 6:37-47

S
Sidewalk Sep 13, 2014

In short, "Christ in you" means that my destiny is to be conformed completely into the image of Christ. I believe that in a way God has only one son, the anointed carrier of all the righteous character of the Father. So far, we see Jesus as the only demonstration of this. But through His atoning death and resurrection, all men are now welcome to become sons of the Father, stamped with the image of the "firstborn among many brethren."

"To as many as received Him, to them He gives the authority to become His sons."

I do like the picture Jesus painted regarding the kernal of wheat, abiding alone. The kernal remains unchanged until it enters the earth. Then it is buried and no one ever sees that kernal again... until the plant comes up and produces a myriad of kernals that are exactly like the one that was buried. "But if it dies, it brings forth much fruit!" Each kernal now bears the exact image of the original kernal, and so it shall be with us. When Christians are resurrected, they will bear the image of Christ, becoming His body, ruling with a rod of iron, being the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Most of Christendom and mainstream theology have a hard time with this. In a way, they so idolize Jesus that He must always remain is a special class without peers. I understand this, but the word of God seems to be very clear that we who overcome and are resurrected into glory will be just like Him.

Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am ye may be also." For most, it just means they get to live in a mansion in Jesus' fancy gated community. I see this as His invitation to the disciples, and by extension to me as well, that we will be in the same place of intimacy and authority as Jesus is. The head and the body flow together to comprise that one son beloved of the Father.

I hope that is clear, that "Christ in you" is a glorious hope imbedded by the Holy Spirit into those who seek Him with a whole heart.

This also is, in my opinion, The Rapture. But my eager anticipation is not a trip into the sky, rather a completing of what I have already received with my baptism in the Holy Spirit. I have a Passover experience in my new birth, a "first fruits" experience in the Holy Spirit baptism, and I await a Tabernacles experience where I will receive incorruptible eternal life in the image of Jesus Christ.

It is my belief, and I am certainly open to correction on this, that once I am "raptured" into His image I will be a part of the army of Psalm 149 driving Satan and his minions completely off the earth. In Romans 8 Paul lays out the plan for delivering the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- another reference to this great deliverence.

My third reference comes from the Lord's prayer which I believe has a prophetic element- Jesus commanding the disciples to pray that the will of God be done in the earth as it is in heaven. Apparently, this is something the Father earnestly desires. Funny how through years of monotonous repetition we don't take it very seriously. I believe Jesus is no less serious today as He was the day He commanded it.

Nothing new or strange here really, the course of a man taken from condemnation under sin to full salvation has long been threaded into the things God has done and placed in His word.

I believe He is even more anxious than we ever could be to see His Son standing in fullness before Him. And His Spirit within me desperately wants to be a part of it all!

I suggest reading and meditating on the Psalm (149) and the latter half of Romans 8. See if God speaks to you in it in a fresh way? Further, Paul in Ephesians and Colossians makes many references to both the mystery of our coming new identity and the consummation of our lives into the Body of Christ. Well worth time and meditation, asking God to open it up in your heart.

sermonindex Sep 13, 2014

"Christ in you, the hope of glory".

This verse speaks to me of the glory that is available in this life if we are really in Christ and He is in us. If we are not glorified, He is not within us yet.

Rapture is in the point of union, when the temple has been cleansed and He is able to take up His place. Others speak of it being nearly so unbearable to their bodies that they ask God to cease otherwise they feel they will die. I imagine it is like being on speed though have never taken any street drugs.

The only thing that stops it is unbelief. Come unto Me He says.

S
Sidewalk Sep 13, 2014

The baptism in the Spirit is called the Pentecostal experience because it first appeared on Pentecost following Jesus' resurrection. The disciples were instructed to wait for it, and when the day of Pentecost arrived, the fire was lit and the body of Christ came alive.

Pentecost, 50 days after the Passover, was the feast of "first fruits," when the people could have a little taste of the produce coming at the full harvest and the feast of Tabernacles. If the first fruits were good, they became excited at the prospect of the full harvest- they already had a little taste of it.

You can see how God was working in this, how He gives a measure of His goodness to us that we might have substance to our hope for the treasure awaiting us when we all come into final maturity.

Paul said, "not that I have already attained, but I press on to the mark of the high calling..." He knew there was so much more, because he had tasted some really good stuff.

sermonindex Sep 13, 2014

1 Thessalonians 4:17English Standard Version (ESV)

17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

sounds like a rapture to me,

S
Sidewalk Sep 14, 2014

This is the one verse in the bible that suggests the traditional rapture popularized by Darby and Schofield after Margaret McDonald's prophetic utterance in 1830.

It has no corroborating verses and theology, but is being given to the Thessalonians as part of the comfort of the gospel to believers who were grieving over the deaths of their believing loved ones. In those days, there was no perception of the gospel going forth over the succeeding 2000 years- they were of a mind that the return of Christ was very imminent. They thought they were missing something.

The verse is intended to comfort these fairly new converts with simple assurance that at the last trump they would be joined both to their Savior and their loved ones. It is not intended to countermand the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25, or even the restoration scenario Paul presents in Romans 8.

My original point is that Jesus is calling and preparing us to be transformed completely away from our current bondage to disease, sin, and death into His perfect likeness- living eternally, spiritually whole, without blemish or any curse. "Be ye perfect as My Father is perfect!"

Once this is a reality, it makes no difference where you are physically- whether the air is chemical or spiritual, whether you are standing on Terra Firma or flying around in the sky. Rather, the best place to be is in the perfect will of the Father, doing whatever He has given you to do. He has promised a new heaven and a new earth. I have no idea how that will work out!

Which brings me back to Psalm 149. That's what I want to see, and truth be told- what I want to do! But I will be most content just being loved as He sees best.

sermonindex Sep 14, 2014

Genesis 5

24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

old testament rapture.

T
TMK Sep 14, 2014

I go believe in a rapture, but not TWO raptures. One rapture at the second coming of Christ. The creation of the new heavens and new earth happens at this point- at least that's how I view it.

S
Sidewalk Sep 14, 2014

Elijah too was "raptured" similarly to Enoch. In neither of these cases was a pattern for humanity devised, or a theological paradigm created for humans to leave earth without death. I do not consider these to be raptures, in that my understanding of rapture is based on other things.

To begin with, Jesus' transfiguation on the mountain in the presence of His three disciples seems a better illustration of what rapture is all about. Several of His parables spoke of finding a special treasure- a lost coin, a pearl of great price, a treasure hidden in a field- and also of selling all He had to buy the field. We take these as illustrations of His great work of redeeming mankind, and rightly so. But just what was that pearl, that treasure He found?

I would suggest it is the rapture He experienced on the mountain, the glorification that for a brief time He wore in somewhat public view. We must not forget that Jesus was a man, and had "not counted equality with God to be grasped, but emptied Himself and became obedient unto death."

From His conversation with Satan in the wilderness where He was challenged to prove He was the Son of God, Jesus knowingly rebuffed the great liar and said this: "MAN shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God." In other words, He told Satan that He was going to defeat him not as God, but as a man!"

This is critical, because if He had not become fully man He would not have qualified to die as a man for our sin.

And so this "man" walks up onto the mountain and receives the reward of His righteousness, a glorification hitherto unknown by any mortal man!

It is at this point He could have returned to heaven, the bosom of the Father, and the joys of that presence. He would have completed a sinless walk on earth and received the glory that a righteous man should have. It was His to hold for all eternity. But He would not have us.

As we know, He took it off and laid it aside. Driven by a love for those disciples and us by extension, He went down the mountain and onto the cross. There He purchased for us the right to have exactly what He had on the mountain. Complete rapture!

Let me boldly say, I have been raptured in a measure, with a little taste of the glory. Weeping, blubbering out praises in English and other tongues, filled to almost pain with adorations and gushings of love and adoring of Jesus my savior! It was a baptism in His Spirit, a rushing of energy and emotion that words fail to adequately describe. It changed my life, and it changed the bible, too! Suddenly I had an inkling of what John was talking about in chapters 14, 15, 16, 17. He comes to abide within, making His home there! Oh! So that's what that means! It is indeed rapture!

Now, typing on the keys of this device is an old man with crochety joints and diminished physical strength. I cannot fly, have a hard enough time jumping! But I burst inside for the consummation of what I have tasted, longing to be clothed with the Lord Himself who loved me and gave Himself for me. I shudder to think of how He loves me even more than I love Him!

Parsing verses to prove theological points is usually fruitless, people don't change their views very easily. The desire to win arguments is just old flesh in me, I flee from it in the Spirit. But I would encourage my brethren who have never had a Holy Spirit baptism, or are not sure, to ask The Father for it.

It may change your perception of rapture, it did for me. But just hearing from God is enough. The Spirit, The Helper, will guide you into all truth.

sermonindex Sep 14, 2014

Many thanks Sidewalk for testifying to your rapture, and I would like to mention my own testimony when for three days, I was unaware of anything but an overwhelming presence of the Lord pouring out His love for me, and opening the seals of scripture, in such a powerful manner that I did not think that my physical heart could survive it.

But I would caution anyone to seek the Lord Himself, and not merely an experience, as the enemy is forever prowling and can give a substitute of the baptism which many have succumbed to.

sermonindex Sep 14, 2014

Experiences can be self induced or worse.

S
Sidewalk Sep 14, 2014

Thank you, Krautfrau! Good words and a great testimony! I have known people whose baptisms in the Spirit lasted multiple days, so glad you had that experience.

You are indeed right about prowling spirits, but we have a direct promise from God that those who seek Him will find Him. Those who are motivated by a lust for power or a drug-like experience are more than likely to find their way into Satan's cold bony fingers. It will be nothing like the genuineness of falling in love with Jesus.

The true baptism will be filled with the truth of scripture, and be marked by a hunger for His word. Still- the Liar never sleeps, never loses his contempt for God or His precious creation. Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit are well advised to join themselves to other mature believers so that the love of Jesus can flow back and forth.

Attacks will come, cling to the Overcomer.

B
brothagary Sep 14, 2014

Iv experenced much the same when i was baptised with the spirit ,,unspeakable joy extasy ,fear and trembling . tears and more tears of gratatude. my hands and face felt unbelievable pleasure ,,this was ten times more powerfull then my new birth ....

But that is not what the bible is talking about when it says we will be raptured and caught up together to meet the lord in the air when he comes to slay the man of sin ,and our bodys ar changed in the twingling of the eye ,and we are glorafied .... We are still waiting for that ,and even more fillings of the holy spirit

sermonindex Sep 14, 2014

Gary

Sidewalk is right, the true baptism leads into truth. The false one is just about sensations. The man of sin is destroyed in the true baptism and we are glorified. To be glorified is to share in the inheritance of Christ and it is for this life.

B
brothagary Sep 14, 2014

So now your saying there is no literal bodily second coming of Christ and a rapture at that time ,,so all the great men of god lake raven hill tozer Wilkinson Wesley Whitfield ,washer ,,are all wrong and you are right ,,that is great pride . I even would bet if i was a gambler ,,that side walk believes in a literal second coming of Jesus and a rapture that occurs around that time
So he would not be supporting your fasle teaching , please correct me sidewalk if im wrong ..


You've been deceived you you believe that Christ wont come back ,that is obviously another false teaching of the quakers

the man of sin who is the literal Antichrist , is not the old man who was me , but the son of perdition .

sermonindex Sep 14, 2014

I have never expressed my views on what happens at the end of time. That is speculative theology and l don't indulge in it.

My concern is this life and the process of becoming Christlike and He comes a second time when we cease to work from the flesh. If one is still operating through this means, then one will be blind to those deeper meanings in scripture and give them a literal interpretation. It is best to concentrate on the here and now.

B
brothagary Sep 14, 2014

Paul called it the blessed hope ,we hope for what we dont see ,it is an event that we are to concentrate on ,to hope and wait for . Paul doesnt seem to agree with what your saying ..

The bible is clear that it is not as you say, speculative theology and never has been in the Christian tradition ,though it varies. Paul wrote is letter to the Thessalonians ,so there was no speculation amongst the brethern ....


With respect to you and the title of the thread ,this is about what happens around the time Jesus comes back , not baptism in the spirit .....

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