The other thread about the atonement got me to thinking about this.
It is not my intent to be flippant or disrespectful.
But, in a sense, can it be said that what Jesus did on the cross was to rescue us from God?
In a sense, you could say so. But, that image of Jesus pushing us from in front of the Father's oncoming bus always bothered me. We are the ones driving the bus at Jesus. We rejected God. We aim our hatred at Him. He allowed our rejection to come to full fruition by sending His Son to the vineyard that He dug, and we killed His Son. At the same time we esteemed Him stricken, God placed the chastisement for our peace upon Him through our own nails and our own wooden cross. He submitted to it.
Did Jesus thereby rescue us from God? He is the propitiation for our sins. Was God waiting to overrun us? Wrath is being stored up against the children of disobedience. Were we disobedient? Yes. Want to think of that as rescuing us from the wrath of God? Please do! :).
Does that make God a monster? Is He not thereby just? If he is viewed as unjust, it is by those who do not know Him and deny who He is.
But, in a sense, can it be said that what Jesus did on the cross was to rescue us from God?
I believe you are right in saying this brother. We all know that God is Love. It is the mantra of the modern evangelical church. But God is also angry. Sinners in the hands of an angry God was a famous sermon preached by Jonathan Edwards. It is not God's fault we are under wrath but our fault. We are willful rebellious sinners. But its God's love that rescue's us from our sins and from His wrath.
Modern believers cannot stomach the idea that God is angry with sin and sinners. And that there is an eternal hell.
I did not intend to suggest by my comment that God is a "monster" from whom we must be rescued.
However, there are some theological systems that when taken to their logical conclusion do seem to suggest this.
GOD is not arbitrarily dealing out punishment...we deserve hell. We are all sinner and deserve hell. Its not as if there are people out in the world who don't deserve GOD'S wrath and judgement, every single one of us does.
I hope this one fact is on everyone's mind we are sinners, we deserve death, hell and torment...and yet GOD who is HOLY, JUST and full of LOVE, MERCY, and GRACE has given us HIS SON instead.
God bless
mj
"But, in a sense, can it be said that what Jesus did on the cross was to rescue us from God?"
We need to see the whole plan of Salvation!
1. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son! "
2. Jesus "humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,…Phil. 2:8
Paul wrote: "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.…1 Timothy 1:15
Blessings, Markus
I believe this question is clearly answered in considering the meaning of the word propitiation mentioned in Rom.3:25 and 1John 2:2. That word means to appease or satisfy God's wrath; to satisfy His righteous demand for divine justice.
As Christ hung on that cross He became as a sponge who soaked up the full force of God's wrath in our stead; the just for the unjust, to bring us to God. What a glorious truth!
Yes, there is that side of God that expresses divine wrath against sin and sinners.
I was reminded of the issue that came up about a year ago with a Presbyterian denomination foolishly wanting to remove these words from this song:
"Till on that cross as Jesus died, The wrath of God was satisfied". Like Greg said, many modern Christians and churches don't like to hear about that side of God at all.
No Brother,...on the contrary,I would say.
What Jesus did on the cross,...was He made A Way to bring us to God.
We could not come in before a Holy God,but NOW through Jesus' shed
Blood an entrance has been made for all those that will (repent) and
turn to God,(as His Grace draws,and be willing to be washed by The Water of The Word.
To bring all His,into The Kingdom of 'God'.
And if it is God' kingdom,and it is,and if God is Word / Spirit,then He will rule..be Lord through His Word / Spirit in that kingdom....As we allow,...
To be led by The Spirit of God.
It is really a mystery,
At your feet Lord,
Elizabeth
Great question, hope everyone is having a blessed night tonight. When discussing things pertaining to God and the Word you need only one thing to answer with, that is the Word of God.
Did Jesus rescue us from God?
Let's see what the scripture says
Psalm 7:11 KJV
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Psalm 5:4-5 KJV
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. [5] The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 5:8-10 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 KJV
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; [10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
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Did Moses intercede for the people so that God wouldn't destroy them in His wrath? The bible says Jesus made intercession for the transgressors. God is angry with the wicked every day. Everyone outside of Christ is under God's wrath. Only by repentance and trusting IN Christ is the wrath that God has on the sinner appeased.
The answer is yes. He made the way but until one accepts that way and follows in it, they are still under the wrath of God. Christ is our only hope once under Him we are new creatures in Christ.
Remember study to shew thyself approved unto God. Love you.
Jesus rescued us from the Devil, Hallelujah!
Amen Man0fG0d. I think especially these two scriptures which you pointed out make it very clear:
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM."-Rom.5:9
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."-1Thess.1:10
According to those verses, what, or Who's wrath are we saved from?
"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"-Revelation 6:17
HE SAVED US FROM HIM SELF
FOR HIM SELF
BY HIM SELF
Jesus is God.
Jesus is God.
What about the OT verses portraying God’s mercy (ex Jonah 4:2)
What about the NT Jesus with a two edged sword in his mouth (Rev. 1:16; 2:17)
The theological position described in this thread has come under scrutiny, and I think for a good reason. It leaves out too many scriptures: ex how Christ’s death AND resurrection gives us new life through his Spirit. It also makes the problem more on God’s side than ours.
What makes us acceptable to God is not merely that sufficient punishment was enacted on our behalf, but that IN HIM, we are new creatures living under a new rule and domain: the kingdom of God.
The effects of weak theology as discussed here becomes evident in the lives of God’s people: The focus is on extrapolating evil (or perceived evil). And insufficient focus is ascribed to the nurture of the gifts of the Spirit ”“ making mature, complete/”perfect” Christians.
In other words our Christianity becomes more about what’s bad then what’s good. Legalism is one of the offshoots: Make lots of rules to suppress the bad; but little effort is made to nurture forgiveness, mercy, grace, etc. And so you see a lot of immaturity among the people of God. .. leading to more rules.... more punishment.... more divisiveness.... more distrust, more controlling behaviors, more loneliness, depression.... suicide....
The criteria:
Good theology produces and enhances LIFE.
Bad theology ultimately is the path of DEATH.
Why should we doubt that Christ himself resonated with both the wrath and mercy of God ”“ even on the cross?
Diane
Well spoken, Diane!
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Yes He will. But He is a judge! He is not free to do things contrary to His law, and His love is not just gooey affection. He desires the highest and best for all His creation, but He is devoted to one thing- His Son! As we join ourselves to the Son, He is devoted to us!
People think that in His sovereignty God can do anything He wishes. Nothing could be further from the truth. In His great love He sent His Son to purchase sinners from the curse they put themselves under! He is not to blame, we are!
One might hopefully begin to see how God's character is besmirched by the doctrine of the inborn sinful nature. This makes God responsible for the curse on men, and obligates Him to fix it. It also obligates Him to fix all men, and we can so clearly see that not all men are fixed. Non-believers have a real problem with seeing a loving God because of that.
When men see that they alone are responsible for their sin, they will be in a position to recognize the sweet love of a saving God. But as long as they hear the error that God is responsible for their condition, they will resist Him.
Romans 1:18 "...they suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
The truth is that Jesus and the Father are in complete accord. "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." They are of one Holy Spirit lovingly solving the deadly problem of human rebellion.
2 Cor 5:19-God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. He did not come to rescue from God. The sentense is not full. We can say that Jesus came to resuce us from God's wrath.
TMK: I think I would have to say absolutely not in the way that you stated it, although I do understand exactly what you are saying. I guess if you had worded it this way, "...what Jesus did on the cross was to rescue us from God's wrath", then I would agree totally.
Although God has chosen to manifest Himself as three, He is still one, hence the term triune. There is not difference of character or purpose in the three manifestations, although there is a difference in manifestation and activity.
God is just and holy, and God is love. These characteristics taken together demand justice and judgment. Our sin subjected us to that justice and judgment. Christ's sacrifice subjected Him to our judgment, freeing us from the penalty demanded by justice. He saved us from rightly deserved judgment.
I am in agreement with what some of the other posters have said. We have misunderstood and twisted the message of the gospel sometimes to the point that we almost paint God and Jesus as enemies who fought it out over what would happen to man, or at least we have given the idea that they are somehow different in essence.
To think about:
Would Jesus not been more accurate in putting it this way:
Matt. 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for the wrath of God.”
...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Is the Son not included in "God" in this situation?
Diane
Could it be that human sin (accumulated) itself was absorbed in Christ (the "Stumbling Stone ... Scapegoat)?
Twayneb,
I want to clarify something in love and with a suspicion of my own self that I misunderstood you. Please be patient with me.
Are you suggesting that God is not one God in three persons when you say He is one God in three manifestations? That is what T.D. Jakes said a couple of years ago as a sort of public coming out of Oneness Pentecostalism that, as I understood him, was not so much a departure from OP as it was a dodge of the question about his OP theology. Whereas Jakes expressly rejected the word "persons" in that dialogue, I am hopeful that you are not.
This discussion is locked.
